HomeMy WebLinkAboutJULY 19,1983_2
CI'lY CDUNCIL PR!X:EEDINGS ARE TAPE RECORDED AND ON FILE IN THE OFF ~CE OF THE CI'lY CLERK
25:0764
MINUTES
CITY CDUNCIL OF THE CI'lY OF ARCADIA
and the
ARCADIA REDEVELOPMENT AGENCY
RffiULAR MEETING
JULY 19, 1983
I
The City Council of the City of Arcadia and the Arcadia Redevelopment
Agency met in a regular session July 19, 1983 at 7:30 p.m. in the City
Hall Council Chambers.
INVOCATION
Rev. Paul Chaney, Emmanuel Assembly of God Church
PLm OF
ALLEGIANCE
ROIL CALL
Floretta K. Lauber, furmer Mayor of the City of Arcadia
PRESENT :
ABSENT :
Councilmen Dring, Haltom, Hannah, Pellegrino, Lojeski
None
MINUI'ES
APPROVED
On MJTION by Cuuncilman Pellegrino, seconded by Councilman Hal tern and
carried the minutes of the adjourned and regular meetings uf July 5,
1983 were APPROVED. Councilmen Dring and Hannah abstained as they
were absent from said meetings.
WAIVE FULL
READING OF
ORD. & RES.
It was !.DVED by Councilman Dring, seconded by Councilman Hal tan and
carried that all ordinances and resolutions be read by title only and
the reading in full be WAIVED.
1.
HEARING Appeal of William Skibsted from some of the conditiuns of approval of
CUP Planning COJJIlission Res. No. 1241 granting a Conditional Use Permit
42 W. Live Oak [83-12] for the expansion of an existing automotive garage at 42 W.
D" )',1 \- Live Oak Avenue. The applicant is proposing a revised plan to provide
r ~ for one additional parking space and 110 sq. ft. of landscaping [total
of 210 sq. ft.] along the easterly property line. This would eliminate
949.5 sq. ft uf landscaping along the westerly property line [WeIland
Avenue] and partially obstruct the visibility frum a driveway by relo-
cating the trash enclosure.
Mayor Lojeski declared the hearing upen and Connie Swank, 5538 N.
WeIland Avenue in Temple City, asked the conditiunal use permit be
granted as it was originally approved by the Planning Coornission.
I
The applicant, Bill Skibsted, Bill's Auto Body and Frame Repair Shop,
42 W. Live Oak Avenue, submitted, in part that he is endeavoring to
clean up the subject area and make it useable for his work. He cir-
culated photographs uf what the place looked like when he purchased
it and what it is now although it isn't finished yet. He asked per-
mission to ellininate the low level landscaping on the inside of the
wall alung WeIland Avenue and to place the trash receptable to a more
convenient area. He v,uuld maintain the landscaping at the corner of
WeIland and Live Oak along with additiunal plantings which are not
indicated on the plan \\hich the Council has in review.
It was brought out that there will be a 6 foot high wall comprised of
2 foot block and 4 foot wrought iron and the reason for desiring to
locate the trash container centrally is that it allows for better work
area and it would be accessible for the rubbish company for pickup.
During the ensuing consideration Mr. Skibsted circulated his revised
plans and responded to questions propounded by Council.
No one else desiring to be heard the hearing was CLOSED on 1fJTION by
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7-19-83
1;0
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2.
IlE'ARING
Traffic
Barriers
San Carlos &
Orange Grove
IN OProSITION
J TO REMOVING
BARRICADES
IN FAVOR
I OF REIDVING
~ BARRICADES
25:0765
Councilman Dring, seconded by Councilman Pellegrino and carried that the
hearing be CLOSED.
It was !.OVID by Councilman Haltan, seconded by COllllCilman Pellegrino and
carried on roll call vote as follows that the appeal be granted with mod-
ifications; delete the landscaping next to the wall along WeIland Avenue;
require a 5' sidewalk with the balance of the parkway along WeIland to be
landscaped; and penni t the trash receptable to be located as set forth in
the applican' ts revised plan. [Resolution to be prepared].
AYES
NOES
AI3SENI' :
Councilmen Dring, Hal tan , Hannab, Pellegrino, Lojeski
None "
None
At its meeting of June 21 the City Council scheduled a public hearing on
the possible removal of the traffic barriers at San Carlos and Orange
Grove Avenue. Notices of this hearing were directed to the property own-
ers in the area bounded by Baldwin Avenue and Santa Anita Avenue on the
west and east and by Orange Grove and Foothill Boulevard on the north and
south. Council received a drawing of the San Carlos Road and Orange Grove
intersection indicating the existing barriers, signing and pavement mark-
ings along with achronological sumnary of events relating to this area..
Council also received copies of correspondence recently received regard-
ing the poSSible removal of the barriers and a copy of the Santa Anita
Oaks Haneowners' Association survey dated February 10, 1983.
I
In response to a question by Councilman Pellegrino the Director of Public
Works said in part that a speed survey had been conducted by the Police
Department which indicated a drop of the speed to scmewhere between 27
and 31 rrph ... that another survey will be taken in the fall at which
t:ime recarrnendations will be made. Surveys are required every five years
and results are filed with the Courts on Roadways where radar is used for
controlling speed and issuing citations. The Director also explained how
speed l:imits are detennined for the various streets.
~1ayor Lojeski declared the hearing open ... First, to hear from those in
opposition to removing the barricades at San Carlos and Orange Grove.
INOORroRATED HEREIN IS A CXlMPLEI'E TRANOCRIPI' OF ALL cx:t.lMENJ.'S MADE BY
THE FOILOWING RESIDENTS;
Gene Lubeshloff
John McConaghy
Bernice Waldo
Clyde Stauff
Gary Darn
501 W. Foothill Bl.
515 Arbolada Dr.
1427 San Carlos Road
1401 Rancho Road
1410 Rancho Road
[President, Santa Anita Oaks
Homeowners' Assn. voiced op-
position on behalf of the
Assn., however, as an indivi-
dual. he was in favor of remoVl'
the traffic diverters.]
340 Arbolada'Dr.[SE corner of
San Carlos and Orange Grove]
1434 San Carlos Road
285 W. Foothill Boulevard
1326 San Carlos Road
1231 San Carlos Road
1409 San Carlos Road
Fran Zonver
J:im Clark
Tan O'Toole
Lloyd P. Savage
Perry Cope
Joseph Brown
John Rakich
185 S. Mountain Trail Avenue
Sierra Madre
11 Hacienda Drive
1451 Oaklawn Road
[submitted a petition with 46
signatures supporting the re-
moval]
420 Arbolada Drive
1112 San Carlos Rd.
1225 Oaklawn Road
215 S. Mountain Trail, Sierra
Madre
7-19-83
Fred Jahnke
George Fasching
Keith Snith
James Flinn
Mrs. Floretta K. Lauber
Jerry Wilwerding
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I
ROLL CALL
I
3b.
MlNUl'E
APPROVAL
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No one else desiring to be heard the hearing was CLOSED on IDI'ICN by
\
<::9unci},!Illlll Hannah, seconded by Councilman Dring and carried.
Councilman Haltan said in part that he has always been opposed to the
barricades ... it not only isolates people in the Oaks but prevents
others fran using it ... he felt it constitutionally wrong. Streets of
Arcadia are not only paid for by the residents of the City but by all
California people ... through tax dollars. He recognized that OJimcil
has an obligation to provide safety for those in the area ... stop signs
were a step in the right direction but the barricades are not.
i
,
Councilman Pellegrino was! in favor of reducing the speed l:imit on San
Carlos and felt the barricades should rsnain until that can be accanplish-
ed ... there is no way to canpare the cost of maintaining the barricades
if a life is lost which has not occurred and hopefully it shall remain
that way.
Councilman Hannah said in part that he is sympathetic to the cause of
safety and would not want to see any accident acCill' on San Carlos as a
result of anything Council did tonight '" however he did not see the
situation on San Carlos as very different from other streets in the City
. .. there is an overall problEm of people exceeding the speed l:imi t. He
said it was his understanding that the barricades were originally erected
on a temporary basis ... He would like to see thEm rEmOved on the same
basis, tEmporary, for a period of time and at that time he would like to
see the Police Department spend extra time in the area to observe viola-
tions o~ the laws.
Mayor Lojeski said in part that he lives in the subject area and recalled
wheii he polled the haneowners on his street ,.. The stop signs were erect-
ed after a poll was taken by the Haneowners' Association .. that by the
Police Department records and the statements made by the Director of PUblic
Works that the speed of traffic has been d:iminished ... that it is a.1lrost
a "no win" situation ... but in the best interests of the situation and of
what has been attempted in the area and in the best interests of what is
there now, the rEmoval of the barricades and the guarantee that there would
be an irregular non-patterned patrol of the area by the Police Department
and retaining the stop signs, would prove to be beneficial in the long run.
Councilman Pellegrino then MOVED that the lowest enforceable speed l:imit
be posted; that the barricades be rerroved on a tanporary six [6] months
with an irregular non-pattern patrol of the area to insure the keeping of
the stop signs. A speed survey will also be conducted during that period.
Motion seconded by Councilman Hannah and carried on the following roll call
vote:
AYES
NOES
ABSENT :
Councilmen Dring, Hal tan , Hannah, Pellegrino, Lojeski
None
None
Council recessed in order to act as the
ARCADIA REDEVELOPMENT AGENCY
PR.E:8liNr :
AreEN!' :
Members Dring, Haltan, Hannah, Pellegrino, Lojeski
None
On IDI'ICN by Member Pellegrino, seconded by Member Hal tan and carried
the minutes of the meeting of July 5 were APPROVED. Members Dring and
Hannah ahstained as they were absent on said date.
Prior to considering the following itEm Member Pellegrino absented h~
self from the Council Table ... he could not participate in the proceed-
ings due to a possible conflict of interest.
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7-19--83
3c.
R P I
250 W.
Colorado
Design
Approved
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ADJOURNMENT
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OJNI'INUID fran July 5 ... Design Review of a proposed developnent at
250 W. Colorado Boulevard [intersection of Colorado Boulevard and Colo-
rado PlaceJ ... it would consist of a 2 story, 2 structure, general of-
fice building with surface and subterranean parking with a total of 64
stalls. It was originally planned to use wood exterior but due to the
cost of this has been replaced with prefabricated material resEmblinp; ce-
ment [DryvitJ. Cotmcil reviewed a color rendering of the developnent
inclUding building elevations and plans. The revised plans had been
revi'ewed by the Planning Department which found thE!ll acceptable.
Dennis Neal, General Partner, RPI Developnent, responded to questions
concerning the project and indicated changes and said the drawings will
soon go into plan check after which construction would begin.
I
It was WVED by l,lEmber Dring, seconded by Chainnan I..ojeski and carried
on roll call vote as follows that the design be APPROVED pursuant to
the revisions submitted.
AYES
NOES
ABSTAIN:
Members Dring, Haltan, Hannah, Lojeski
None
MEmber Pellegrino who did not participate due to a possible
conflict of interest.
AffiENT :
None
The meeting adjourned to Thursday August 4, 1983 at 7 p.m.
Council reconvened
AlIDIENCE PARTICIPATION
Richard Hernandez, 818 W. Cameron Avenue, West Covina, representing
S.C.A. Webster Disposal Canpany, referred to the staff report and rec-
commendation relating to proposals received for a refuse removal con-
tract for the City. He said in part that sane i tans had been inadver-
tently overlooked in their proposal and asked Council not to Imke a
determination as yet and allow his company to clarify some of the points
listed in the staff report dated July 14. He noted that his cunpany had
submitted the lowest bid and that their contract with the City of Santa
Ana had just been renewed which he felt justified the type of service
they render as Santa Ana is a large populated City.
John Gerradi, Vice President of Western Waste Industries, Inc., c<.mnend-
ed the City staff in its report and recommendation concerning the rubbish
contract; that the bidders were all given an ample opportunity to discuss
and clarify items in their bids and urged the City Council to follow,
staff's recommendation.
John Tarazi, 1827 S. Third Avenue, Arcadia, referred to an itE!ll on the
agenda concerning his request for a waiver of certain requirE!llents ~
posed on his proposed operation in the Chicago Park area to be known as I
the Jonell ChE!llical Products. He introduced his architect, James Door.
65 W. Le Roy Avenue, Arcadia, who said in part that the'staff's classi-
fication of the operation as a Group H hazardous operation is erroneous .
. " 95% of the product used has a flashpoint greater than 3000 ... the
remaining fluids have a flashpoint of 1100 to 2000 Fahrenheit which
quantities are less than that exempted. He felt the projected cost of
$52,600 to extend the water line would be an unreasonable burden to the
land owner ... if water were available at a reasonable cost Mr. Tarazi
would sprinkle his building and share in the cost of providing water.
He, asked Council to grant the request so the developnent may proceed
which will benefit the City and make useable land which has been lying
donnant for about 20 years. [NOm: THIS WAS AN AGENDA ITEM THIS DATE
AND THE REQUFSI' WAS DENIED ON A 4-1 VOl'E .. SEE PAGE NO. 5J.
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7-19-83
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11':. I d
5a.r'
CONTRACT
AWARD
[Slurry
Seal]
"
r:: (II, / I;.-
5b.
DllDLITION
SENIOR
CITIZEN SITE
5c.f'/3&4
CDBG
REIMBURSABLE
CONTRACT
5d.P!"~'"'V
J T P A
CONSJRTIUM
JOINT roWERS
AGREEMENl'
I
6a.
JONELL
CHEMICAL
~UEST FOR
WAIVERS
DENIED
"" /tt;
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25,0768
~ohn Furay, 901 S. Primrose, Monrovia, representing Best Disposal Can-
pany, referred to the staff report on refuse pickup and the reccmnenda-
tion ... he felt Council should carefully study the two recomnended pro-
posals, and after that analysis if one or ooth do not satisfy the require-
ments of the City's residents that would be sufficient basis to reject
ooth and extend the contract with Best Disposal [which tenninates in
March of 1984]. He noted the perfonnance record of his company over the
last 10 years and its desire to continue the kind of service the residents
have becane accustaned to and to which they are entitled.
Benny Joseph, 401 N. First Avenue, Arcadia, spoke on behalf of Best
Disposal Cumpany and noted sane of the extra service it has performed
without more cost to the residents.
Mrs. Rita Lubeshkoff, 501 W. Foothill Boulevard, also spoke in favor of
Best Disposal Company and carrnented on the service she bas received.
James S. Menzies, 420 Santa Cruz Road, spoke on behalf of Best Disposal
Company and asked Council to review the proposals very carefully; that
the service and equipnent of Best is exceptional.
CONSENT ITEMS
AWARDED a contract to the low bidder, Pavement Coatings Canpany, in the
amount of $69,592.80 for the annual street maintenance - slurry seal -
Job No. 547; all informalities or irregularities in the bids or bidding
process were waived and the r,layor and City Clerk were AUI'FDRlZED to exe-
cute a contract in fonn approved by the City Attorney. APPROPRIATED
$76,000 from State Gas Tax Funds to cover the cost of construction in-
cluding design, inspection and contingencies.
AWARDED contract in the amount of $9,152 to the low bidder, Goldbar Land
Clearing, for the demolition and clearance of the site for the Senior
Citizen Housing Project at 645, 653, 659 and 663 Nacmi Avenue. Funds are
available through Carrnunity Developnent Block Grant Program.
APPROVED and AUI'FDRlZED the Mayor to execute the 1983-84 Jobs Bill -
Carrnunity Developnent Block Grant Program Reimbursable Contract - under
the Housing and Community Developnent Act of 1984 as amended.
APPROVED the Joint Powers Agreement with the cities of Duarte, Monrovia,
Pasadena, Sierra Madre and South Pasadena to provide the delivery of job
training services to eligible residents. 'The Mayor and City Clerk were
AUTHORIZED to execute the agreement in fonn approved by the City Attorney.
THE AOOVE CONSENT ITEMS WERE APPROVED ON MarION BY COUNCILMAN DRING,
SEXXlNDED BY COUNClillAN HALIDI AND CARRIED ON ROIL CAlL VOTE AS FOlLOWS;
AYES
IDES
ABSENT ;
Councilmen Dring, Haltan, Hannah, Pellegrino, Lojeski
None
None
CONTINUED FOOM JULY 5.
Request of Jonell Chemical Products for waiver of City requirements
in connection with a proposed developnent in the Chicago Park area [Cogs-
well Street]. 'The company manufactures and blends lubricating oils and
cutting oils for machine shops. The developer, John Tarazi, advised in
his cannunication dated July 13 that it is a clean operation and does not
have any by-products or funes. It is intended to construct a_~_ft wal~
around the plant for protection and also to form a curtain. They would
be willing to pay its share of the water line based on the total frontage
of the property.
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7-19--83
6b.
REFUSE
OOLLECTION
[Sept. 13
Study SesESion]
b~ 1)
f~ I
7a.
RESJLUTIQN
NO. 5111
ALOPTED J
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25;0769
The Fire Department advised that chEm;i.cal or electronic systffilS ~uld not
meet the State requirEment. The question of water lines also arose and
staff advised that the existing 8 inch line would have to be enxtended '"
this would cost about $46,000 and the developer ~uld also have to install
water meters for both domestic consumption and for his fire sprinkler sys-
tEm .., total cost 'M)uld be the $46,000 plus $6.600 for water service.
Staff had recannended that the developer pay the full cost of water line
improvffilents. [NarE: The architect for this developnent spoke during
audience participation].
With the cannent that he would not be in favor of waiving any of the re-
quirEments and that Mr. Tarazi knew of the water situation when he pur-
chased the property Councilman Dring h1JVED to DENY the request. Motion
seconded by Councilman Haltom who felt it would be impractical to estab- I
lish an assessnent district for one tenant. However, Councilman Pelle-
grino would like to see something developed in the Chicago Park area and
to study the possibility of solving the water problEm.
Roll call vote was then taken on the motion.
AYES
NOES
ABSENr :
Councilmen Dring, Haltom, Hannah, Lojeski
Councilman Pellegrino
None
Council received the staff analysis and recannendation concerning pro-
posals received for the exclusive right to collect, remove and dispose
of residential rpfuse. It was noted therein that requests for bids were
mailed to 28 refuse collectors and 10 proposals were received which staff
accepted and analyzed.
American Waste Removal
Angelus-Hudson, Inc.
Athens Disposal Co.
Best Disposal Co.
Browning-Ferris Industries
Westem Wast"
[EDOO Disposal Corp dba
[Rancho Disposal Service, Inc.
~etropolitan Waste Disposal
SCA/Webster Refuse Disposal
Waste ManagEment of California
Industries
Evaluations were prepared on each of the above. Five were eliminated
and the top five were reviewed in relationShip to criteria listed in
the staff report dated July 14. The top five were Athens Disposal,
Best Disposal, SCA/Webster, Waste r,lanagEment and Western Waste Indus-
tries. It was recommended by staff that Council hold a study session
for the purpose of interviewing Athens Disposal and Western Waste In-
dustries and making a determination.
Councilman Dring MOVED to accept staff's recommendation. Motion did
not receive a second. It was then ~K)VED by Councilman Pellegrino,
seconded by Councilman Haltom and carried that additional information
be obtained on the top five bidders and that the data include canplete
rates for five years. Councilman Hannah felt the subnitted information
is inccmplete. He ~uld also like to know the percentage of the dunping
fees the hcmeowner pays.
I
Council SCHEDULED a STUDY SESSION for September 13, 1983 at 5:30 p.m.
The City Attorney presented, explained the content and read the title
of Resolution No. 5111, entitled: "A RESJLUTION OF THE CI'IY OOUNCIL OF
THE CI'IY OF ARCADIA oproSING A PRlOON IN THE CI'IY OF IRWINDALE."
It was MOVED by Councilman Hal tom, seconded by Councilman Dring and
carried on roll call vote as follows that Resolution No. 5111 be and
it is hereby ADOPTED.
AYES
NOES
ABSENr :
Counci lmen Dring, Hal tan, Hannah, Pellegrino, Loj eski
None
None
-6-
7-19-83
Th.
RES::>LlJrION
ID. 5112
AJX)PI'ED
j
I
7('.
Rl'IDLlJrION
NO. 5113
AJX)PI'ED
/
7d.
RES::>LillION
NO. 5114
AJX)PI'ED
I
.
7e.t" "
CLAIM
Suarez
APPROVED
I ADJOURl'lMENT
August 4
j
25:0770
The City Attorney presented, explained the content and read the title
of Resolution No. 5112, entitled: "A RES::>LillION OF THE CITY CDUNCIL OF
THE CITY OF AOCADIA REGARDING RELEASE OF CDVENANT [VARIANCE 77-5]."
It was M:JVED by Councilman Dring, seconded by COlIDCilman Hal tan and
carried on roll call vote as follows that Resolution No. 5113 be and
it is herpby ADOPI'ED.
AYES
IDES
ABSENT :
Councilmen Dring, Hal tan , Hannah, Pellegrino, wjeski
Nonp
Non...
The City Attornpy presented, explained the content and read the title
of Resolution Nu. 5113, entitled: "A RES::>LUI'ION OF THE CITY CDUNCIL
OF THE CITY OF AOCADIA IN SUProRT OF LEGAL SERVICES FOR VlcrIMS OF
VIOLENT CRIMES."
It was M:JVED by Councilman Dring, seconded by Councilman Haltun and
carried on roll call vote as follows that Resolution No. 5113 be and
it is hereby AJX)PI'ED.
AYES
IDES
Councilmen Dring, Hal tun, Hannah, Pellegrino, wjeski
None
Anr"T:'Jl.'lTT'\.
"T....
The City Attorney presented, explained the content and read the title
of Resolution No. 5114, entitled: "A RES::>LUI'ION OF THE CITY CDUNCIL OF
THE CITY OF AOCADIA APPROVING THE APPLICATION FOR BICYCLE AND PEDESrRIAN
FACILITIES AurHORlZED UNDER SB 821 AND DESIGNATING A BICYCLE AND PEDES-
TRIAN FACILITIES PI1OJB:::I'."
It was M:JVED by Councilman Dring, seconded by Councilman Pellegrino and
carried on roll call vote as follows that Resolution No. 5114 be and it
is hereby ADOPTED.
AYES
NOES
ABSENT .
Councilmen Dring, Hal tan, Hannah, Pellegrino, Lojeski
None
None
On MJrION by Councilman Dring, seconded by Councilman Haltun and carried
on roll call vote as follows the claim of C. Suarez was APPROVED in an
amount to be determined upon further investigation but in no case not to
exceed $1,719.48 as submitted in the claim.
AYES
NOES
ABSENT :
Counci1n1en Dring, Hal tan, Hannah, Pellegrino, Lojeski
None
None
The meeting adjourned at 10:45 p.m. to T1IUruIDAY AUGUSI' 4, 1983 at
7 p.m. in the Conference Roan tu cunduct the business of the Council
and Agency and any Closed Session necessary to discuss personnel, liti-
gation matters and evaluation of properties.
dfxtk~~
City Clerk .
7-19-83
T RAN S C RIP T
[Insofar as decipherable]
I
PUBLIC HEARING PROCEEDINGS
BARRICADES AT SAN CARLOS
and
ORANGE GROVE
REGULAR CITY COUNCIL MEETING
J UL Y 1 9, 1 983
I
LOJESKI
HOWARD
Traffic Barriers
San Carlos and
Orange Grove
July 19, 1983
Item No.2 on the agenda. Public Hearing, Chester Howard.
Your honor, members of the council. You have the staff report and support mater-
ial pertaining to this matter. At the conclusion of the public hearing if the
council determines that San Carlos traffic barriers should be removed, staff I
should be directed to remove the barrier and the pertinent signing and pavemen
markings. If the council determines that the barriers should remain then we
need direction as to the nature of any future improvements that would be desired.
This concludes my report, unless you have questions.
LOJESKI Does anyone have any questions of Mr. Howard?
PELLE
HOWARD
One question. Mr. Howard. Since our last meeting have we determined that we
can lower the speed limit signs on that street?
Speed survey has been made by the Police Department that would indicate that the
speed has dropped to somewhere between 27 and 31 mph. Later in the fall we will
be redoing the speed zoning study for the entire city and we would make a recom-
mendation at that time as to what changes should be made but it would appear now
that we can drop the limit but just to what we can't determine until we complete
the study.
LOJESKI Do we do such studies Chester at just certain times of the year?
HOWARD We are required to do it every 5 years and file it with the courts on roadways
where we use radar for controlling speed and issuing citations.
LOJESKI Can we upgrade those within that 5 year period?
HOWARD
We could but it doesn't change the prevailing speed there on San Carlos. We
could, if the council so desired, we could remove the 35 moh sign but the speel
is determined by the Police Department in their radar study, That is going to
remain more or less the same. . They will still be travelling the street at
.
HOWARD
LOJESKI
I
HOWARD
bOJESKI
DRING
HOWARD
LOJESKI
HOWARD
LOJESKI
HOWARD
I
LOJESKI
PELLE
Traffic Barriers
San Carlos etc.
July 19, 1983
between 27 and 31 mph.
I appreciate that. Let's assume 3 years ago the radar clocked the cars'going
35 mph on the average, the street was sign~d as 35 mph speed limit, 3 years
later certain items had been instituted whereby the police-go back in and radar
indicates that the speed limit is now 25 mph. Can we resign that at 25 mph or
do we have to wait for the 5 years to be up?
No, we can pick out that one street and handle it separately.
Councilman Dring do you have a question?
I would recommend that before that is brought back to the 'council again, that
another police survey be done on that street..
Correct. Will be done.
Any further questions of staff? Chester I 'have one question. Did we ever get
the final cost estimates on improvements if the barricade were to stay, what
the cost would be to improve?
We made some preliminary estimates on that and the 'cost is going to vary depend-
ing on what the council wants to do but it is anywhere from say $5,000 to $9,000
depending on whether 'we put in landscaping or whether, we put in a sprinkler system
or whether we employ say colored concrete in the island area. There is, all a
manner of variations there and consequently the cost would vary.
Ongoing cost. Do we have any idea what that would be?
If we are putting in concrete then there would be very little ongoing cost other
than taking care of vandalism problems which we seem to have there. If we put
in landscaping then you have the never ending cost of maintaining the land-
scaping and paying the cost of the water.
Councilman Pellegrino.
Mr. city attorney. Wnat problems would we have if we posted a 25 mph speed limit?
Traffic Barriers
San Carlos etc.
, July 19, 1983
MILLER
I think the question would relate to whether it is really legally authorized
and that pertains to the survey' information that the Public Works Director has
to provide so the problem would be that they wouldn't be recognized necessarily
in a lega~ sense when citations were issued.
PELLE
Thank you.
LOJESKI Any further questions of Mr. Howard? This is a Public Hearing. We will take
first of all those people who are in opposition to this item on the agenda
would be in opposition to the removal of the traffic barriers at San Carlos and
Orange Grove. In other words these are for people who are for keeping the bar-
ricade there.
_.---._--- -- ----~-------_.
OPPOSED
"
My name is Gene Lubeshkoff and I live at 501 W. Foothill Blvd. As most of the
<
people in the neighborhood know I walk my 'dog virtually every morning and every
night in this area.
We have lived there since Baldwin Avenue had been
and before the barricade came into being and at that time when Baldwin was virtuall
closed down to or 2 lanes, Arbolada arid San Carlos was used as the main thoro-
fare from Sierra Madre down to Foothill Blvd. and get on the freeways. At that
time the traffic was almost unbearable. You couldn't walk along the street
because the traffic was so heavy and so fast. If the barricade is removed, I
would venture to guess that the average speed limit would go up at least 10
miles an hour coming down San Carlos. The new stop signs that were put in has
been a help but for instance last night I took the dog for a walk and in a space
of about a minute and a half when I was walking north on San Carlos from Arbolada
5 cars passed me. The stop sign at Hacienda was observed by 2 of the 5 vehicles,
one turned right the other 4 went straight ahead, 3 of the 4 that went straighl
virtually made no effort to stop at all and keot right on going. Before they
got up to the next stop s{gn at Oaklawn Pl., they were probably doing in exces"
I
I
.
Traffic Barriers
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July 19, 1983
LUBESHKOFF
of 50 miles an hour. In the morning when you walk there you can hear the cars
coming from Orange Grove and by the time they get wound up down they have a
hard time stopping at Arbolada at that stop sign let alone at Hacienda. I
feel that removal of the barricades would just increase the traffic and increase
the speed on Arbolada and a lot of people like to walk that area because it is
enjoyable to walk but you can't walk when the traffic is so heavy that it becomes
life endangering. Thank you.
LOJESKI Thank you Mr. Lubeshkoff.
Good evening my name is John McConaghy' and I live at 515 Arbolada. We are priv-
ileged in this country to be able to enjoy the freedom of local government and
in some parts of this world you can't and part of that privilege or part of the
benefits of that privilege is the advantage of serving the local interest. I
would like to touch on just a few points-the pros and cons of this local interest.
The paramount matter I believe is safety. Those streets do not have sidewalks.
Anybody walking as a pedestrian, kids playing whether they are in their drive-
way or whatever; they are going to end up sooner or later walking along that
street. Now, I just heard not toolong ago about the problem of having
a wall blocking views some several feet back from the street. When you drive
along San Carlos you will notice that there are trees, bushe~.whatnot,all the
way out to the curb. There are definite areas along that street where a kid
can take 2 steps and be well into the traffic zone. Now I have lived here
since prior to the freeway and prior to the cutting through of Baldwin, south
from Foothill and we have seen a very dramatic jump in traffic and I happened
to have been involved in'considering these matters since that time and I have
seen those figure~s. The city has those figures of the dramatic increase of
traffic once Baldwin south from Foothill was opened and once the freeway was
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San Carlos etc.
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July 19, 1983
McCONAGHY put in, both at the same time. We have seen quite a decrease now with the
advent of the barrier and additionally now the advent of the stop signs. So
touconsider removing those, I think is clearly to the detriment of the safety
of the neighborhood. I have heard some comments in the audience tonight that
people have lived here for many, many years and there hasn't been anyone killel
Dr any major accident in this area. Well, may that continue ~ but there are
changes, changes have come, to our area. One of the biggest seems to have been
the cutting through of Baldwin as I have mentioned and there also would appear
if you watch the way people drive on the street and also down Arbolada to get
to that exit from Arbolada ontc Foothill, you see a tendency of people apparently
trying to beat the other traffic going around the other way because it is defin-
itely a very rapid process. There has been a mention by the previous speaker
that people are running the stop signs at present. People are also disobeying
the requirements of that barrier and coming around it any way. Apparently az
number of people are not doing so and that is helping cut back but I understand
the problem that Arcadia has, as every community'has these days, that we can't
afford just an unlimited supply of police protection. You can't ba;Mcl'loikei;l~!
up there watching those stop signs at'all times of the day and night and by cut-
ting through that barrier again, I would suggest that one of the dangers that
does exist with stop signs,namely, that people tend to rely on them going one
way and somebody else comes through and does not obey them going the other and
there is an accident. ,To cut through the barricade' would be to invite or to
aggravate that possibility. Finall~ just a point about the people that I am
sure you will hear from tonight that are adamant about pulling out that bar-
ricade. The barricade does not stop anyone from walking through there. It
not stop anyone from taking a bicycle through there and in fact it does not
Traffic Barriers
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I
July 19, 1983
McCONAGHY stop anyone in an automobile if ~ they don't care about the law or they
happened to be so desperately in need of a hurry, in such a hurry, that they
feel obligated to viola~the posted requirements. The alternative is to
drive in a car and that is the only really limitation on anyone is to drive
in a car 2 country blocks west to Baldwin. One country block east on Foothill
to go south on the Baldwin, south of Foothill. There is no other advantage from
the standpoint of other than visiting residents in that area of cutting through
that area because if you proceed down Orange Grove to the east you come to
Santa Anita which is 'the first through street between Baldwin and Santa Anita.
So I think we are looking at a condition that has clearly proven to be of bene-
fit to the neighborhood. I think we are looking at a conditon that has very
minimal detriments to those who wish to drive between Sierra Madre and Foothill
Blvd. and to even consider that that additional time spent in the automobile
which is the only limitation on anyone, is clearly being selfish and against the
concept of safety in Arcadia. Thank you.
LOJESKI Thank you Mr. McConaghy Next.
My name is Bernice Walde and I have lived for 27 years on San Carlos Road in
the Santa Anita Oaks. It is a nice residental area in Arcadia, however, given
traffic conditions at certain timer., I might just as well live on a thoroughfare.
We have the traffic barrier at Orange Grove and the 3 stop signs between Orange
Grove and Foothill. They have helped tremendously and I don't see how these
could adversely ~ffect anyone in any Arcadia residence. However, many of the
trafficers from up north as has been stated, apparently don't intend to observe
the law in either regard. I)many times stand at the window of my living room
and watch the cars ignore first the no through sign at Orange Grove and then the
I
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July 19, 1983
WALDE
first stop sign also. I can't see beyond that one. So since there seems to be
no way to make them observe the law, the!)olice patrol helps but it has no last-
l,
ing effect. After a little while they forget about it. The only way to correct
the problem is to put up, in my opinion, a permanent closure. We certainly
should not remove the barrier. That would put us
right back where we started I
speed limit returned. We
there should be any difference
and I would be very happy also to see that 25 mph
do live in a residental area and I don't see way
between our street and some other street. It, is all residental. It should be
the fixed 25 mph speed limit. At least I would hope so and if it is a question
of a problem,between the wishes of the people of Sierra Madre and the wishes of
the people of Santa Anita Oaks, I'think the ruling should and must favor the
residents of ' Arcadia who live on San Carlos because we are the ones that are
effected. Thank you for your attention.
LOJESKI Thank you Mrs. Walde.
My name is Clyde Stauff and I live at 1401 Rancho Road in Arcadia. I grew up
in Arcadia and left it to go to college and bought a home in an area that was
Santa Anita Oaks some 2 years ago. I think one of the reasons I wanted, to buy
there is I thouqht it would be an excellent place to raise a family. I have
a 3 year old son and a 4 year old daughter. I think the greatest disappointment
that my wife and I have with the area has been the traffic. There is a non-stop
stream of cars up and down. I know on my street, I have also observed it on
San Carlos/but more disappointing than that is the manner in which the cars are
operated which has been continually irresponsible. I have had my lawn driven
on four times. There is constantly tire marks out at every intersection anund_ I
there seems to be a lack of available police support to enforce the law.
fortunately by the time anyone can call the police, the offenders are long gon
STAUFF
I
LOJESKI
D~N
I
Traffic Barriers
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July 19, 1983
I don't really see a solution, an affordable solution from the city's stand-
point in terms of police enforcement. What I think we are hearing tonight is
that streets such as Santa Anita and Baldwin and Orange Grove which are really
designed to handle traffic require that drivers go an additional one half a
minute to a minute out of their way and that is such an inconvenience that those
drivers have no consideration for the residents who are trying to enjoy some
peace of mind in their homes without a constant stream of tire squealing by the
front windows. I think the problem is greater in the area than the San Carlos
barricade, if you will. I think there will be based on the homeowner's meet-
ings that I've attended,' greater concern over this problem. I think that un-
fortunately there is no plan from the city or no direction to alleviate the
problem by encouraging traffic on Santa Anita or on Baldwin and I know I don't
enjoy living on a thoroughfare. I somewhat envy the San Carlos barricade. I
wish there were one on my street. Short of that I would think it was the city's
responSibility to enforce reasonable residential speed limits which is not
occurring at this point. I,like the speaker before me, do not wish to see one
of'my children either killed or maimed so that we can obtain adequate pro-
tection. Thank you.
Thank you Mr. Stauff. Aqain you are addressing the council if you are in
opposition to the removal of the traffic barriers at San Carlos and Orange
Grove.
Thank you Mr. Mayor my name is Gary Dorn and'I live at 1410 Rancho Road and
I am President of the Santa Anita Oaks Homeowners Association. Late in 1982
the City Manager wrote ~ our association and asked us for input with re-
spect to the traffic diverter at San Carlos and Orange Grove. Specifically he
asked if we would seek information from our members with respect to whether the
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1.:~2 ~(
July 19, 1983
DORN diverters should be removed, remain in place or remain in place and improved.
He asked that we do so not only with respect to the total area but also with
respect to those along San Carlos. In early January Mr. Howard, the Director
of Public Works, wrote us a similar letter and in mid-January of this year,
,
we did send out a survey to our members and to all residents located within
the Santa Anita Oaks. The response to that survey we communicated to you in
our letter of February 10th and I would like to review a couple of items from
that letter. First of all, we sent out approximately 467 letters and received
222 replies. A direct mail response of 50% I think ind,icates some interest in
the issue by the people that were surveyed. The survey indicated that in ex-
cess of 60% of the people,in the entire Santa Anita Oaks were in favor of main-
taining the barrier or improving it. Only 40% wanted it removed. With the re-
spect to thesqu~st~on of those people along San Carlos, there were 33 responses
from Deople who live on San Carlos, 28 wanted it to remain and 5 want it to be
removed. In other words 85% 'of those people on San Carlos wanted it to remain.
In deference to these figures I think the a:ssociatjon is in support of maintain-
ing the barricade or improving it~ preferably the latter.
LOJESKI Mr. Darn I have a question. I happened to also have a colored map in front of
me. I presume which was constructed by the Homeowners Association.
DORN
LOJESKI
It was given to the council at a meeting subsequent to the inquiry.
I notice 1410 Rancho which I believe is your address, you are in favor of re-
moving the traffic diverter?
DORN
~:ca~r::d:::d~::;O:~S'AsIal:::t:: ::n:::t~O:da:h:::e::::Sd:f;::::td:::nO:r~raf-1
Stauff who lives down on the corner, I get somewhat of a sadistical pleasure
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July 19, 1983
DORN to watch the faces on the people that come north on Rancho,hit the gutters at
Hacienda and gO,airborne and by the time they hit my house, the visual express-
ion on their faces is a memorable one. I am not here representing myself. I
I
am here representing the association and as an association our association has
voted 60 - 40,to maintain the barricade and especially ,to support the individuals
who live on San Carlos who 85% are in favor of the barricade.
LOJESKI Thank you for the' clarification. Anyone else in opposition to this item?
.
ZONVER
My name is' Fran Zonver and I 1 ive at 340 Arbolada which is the southeast corner
of Arbolada and San Carlos. Since the barricade has gone up ~t the corner of
Orange Grove and San Carlos, the traffic has diminished quite a bit. Since the
stop signs have gone up, it is alarming how I would say over half of the traffic
that we used to have has since ceased. I have a 14t year old son who rides a
bike. Every morning, we remodeled a year and a half ago, our kitchen is located
right on the corne~ and we sit there in horror at watching the speed of people
going through the stop sign at San Carlos and Arbolada, not stopping half of
the time, children crossing Arbolada on their way to school. For the first
time since I've lived in the house, and I have lived there 6 years now, I feel
the safest I have ever felt, as far as children's safety, and I only hope and
pray that we don't have to have the death of a child in order for us to keep
these stop signs and the safety and the barricade at Orange Grove in order to
instill the fact that the traffic factor is tremendous. Thank you.
LOJESKI Thank you Mrs. Zonver.
I
CLARK
My name is Jim Clark. I live at 1434 San Carlos Road which is about 3 houses
south of Orange Grove. I don't know what more I could say after you people
have just listened to a lady who has a young son living on the street and she
CLARK
LOJESKI
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July 19, 1983
certainly has expressed the feeling of everybody, the fear that there is going
to be an accident, the serious one if the traffic is permitted to ,expand to what
it used to be prior to the existing barricade. I find the inconvenience is a
minor inconvenience and anyone who in the Santa Anita Oaks finds this to be a
major factor, I am sorry-they should get off the existing cul-de-sac allld '!jd,nGl ,
out what it is like to live on a throughway such as San Carlos was before the
barricade. I don't find that setting a barricade as being a big precedent,
certainly it is not exactly a world event as somebody implied. There are many
streets around the country that have been blocked off. I think we can point
to one right down here across from the shopping center and here in Arcadia.
Certainly the city of South Pasadena blocked off a street, completely blocked
it off in Los Angeles and obviously it met with some opposition but it is still
blocked off. My wife gave me a little clipping from the morning paper, the
Los Angeles Times, which seems to be ,rather appropos. Ty'affic barriers that
divert cars from its residential streets to main thoroughfares will remain
legal after next January 1, under a law signed byGO'\7'et.tlG1I' George Deukmejian.
I won't read the rest of the article but if you gentlemen have not seen this,
I'll be glad to give you this little clipping here. I don't want to take up
any more time and repeat what has already,been said. All I can tell you is
we are happy that the barricade is there. We would like to see a better
looking one if you will but we are happy that it is there. We would be very
unhappy if you took it out and we think that the city council that put this
in acted in good faith and their faith has been proven and I sincerely hope
this city council~will not see fit to make any drastic changes such as re-
moving a barricade. Thank you very much.
Thank you Mr. Clark.
I
O'TOOLE
,~
" ,.
Traffic Barriers
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July 19, 1983
I'm Tom O'Toole. I live at 285 W. Foothill which is the second house from the
corner of San Carlos. I,too like some of the other orevious speakers am a
walker at night but at times I have had to become a diver. I'd like to have
a dollar for every time I had to dive into somebody's bushes to avoid cars
'7'
roaring down that very area. More importantly though I don't know af anyone
of you has ever observed the school bus trying to make a left hand turn from
Hacienda on to San' Carlos. Now if you ever have a vehicle that size and watch
those 4-whee1 drive vehicles come down San Carlos at you, that is sheer terror.
I do wish that we had the school bus driver here who could give you some of her
experiences on that corner. I fail to understand why we keep going through
this. A few years ago this question came up and at that time the idea was to
have barriers at 4 or 5 different points to slow down the flow of traffic and
we had discussion-I recall-with the Fire Department and the Police Department
and the final settlement of this was one, just one barrier to slow down the
traffic. Now if that barrier were not effective, there wouldn't be any ques-
tions being asked as far ~s I can see. So let's let it remain and be effec-
tive.
LOJESKI Thank you Mr. O'Toole.
SAVAGE
I
My name is Savage (Lloyd P.). I live at 1326 San Carlos and this is the third
time that I have spoken to the council on this matter. I would like to say
in opening that we appreciate the fact that something was done back when this
first meeting concerning the area was held. That was what we asked primarily,
Just do something for us because it was an impossible situation and the barrier
was a result of it. We had another meeting following that which ,considered be-
cause'the first decision as I understand it, was a temporary or trial period
and the second meeting was to determine would we continue with what had been
Traffic Barriers
San Carlos etc.
July 19, 1983
SAVAGE
established in the beginning and again it was prolonged and again our apprec-
iation should be stated. Now more recently and I wonder whether i't was coinci-
dental that we had an accident about 11:30 at night coming out of Hacienda,
hitting the fire hydrant on San Carlos and putting the water out until some
time around 8:00 or 9:00 o'clock the following morning. I know I appreCiated'
it because the regulator in my home and the control of the water pressure
burst and the city department took care of it. The thing about this in the
concern about damages was that I was informed by an official of the water
department that unfortunately the driver of this vehicle had no insurance.
So including the repairs on my property as well as the repairs to that hydrant
in adjacent property, apparently the city was going to undertake that all on
itself. It was a high speed accident. Now my concern at this point when we
talk in terms of removing these things that have been established to help us
in the beginning is why? If you listen to the scuttlebutt that comes through
you hear all these stories about people from Sierra Madre being very unhappy
with people in Arcadia or about the fact that we are prohibiting them from
our streets. I made the statement originally that was never our intention
and I don't believe that it is the intention of anyone on the street to pro-
hibit anyone from Sierra Madre to drive those streets. What we would like to
have them do as well as our own Arcadia residents, is to drive them reasonably.
That is all we have asked. In the first meeting, the police representative
pointed out to us that you people,of San Carlos Road are going to have to ob-
serve the same requirements as the visitors to that street and that is true,
we do. There are three stop signs there and each one of us as residents is rl
qui red to stop at those signs and the same thing is true at the barrier at th
head of the street on Orange Grove. So there is nothing imposed upon a visitor
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San Carlos etc.
SAVAGE
to our section that impairs his ability to drive on those
streets if he drtves reasonably as we ourselves do not have July 19, 19B3
observe.
_,.:, ',:"i:.... "to '..:/ The speed 1 imit there is 30 mph. There is a divider in the street
and there are sidewalks there and we have 35 mph on San Carlos where there
are no sidewalks and where there are blind corners"that do impede the vision
,
of oncoming cars at certain points. I have never understood why San Carlos
under those circumstances if you compare it to something like Baldwin would
Come into the same category as a speed limit. You look just down the street
from us on Foothill and it is,40 miles per hour and again you have the dividers
and again you have some sidewalks and, it is only,35 mph on San Carlos, there
are no sidewalks and if there is any driver' who was that careful with 5 mph
of his speed, he would be hard to locate. Just about everything has been said
before relative to the speeding on San Carlos, I agree with 100%. I too, walk]
my dog. I walk him at night, I walk him in the afternoon and I am constantly
concerned with the speed of cars that are coming and going. I try to face the
oncoming traffic but repeatedly I pull him into a driveway or onto someone's
lawn or even into the bushes just to be certain. It is never that safe and
you don't have a safe feeling walking those streets. The people who violate
the speed and the ordinances of our area are not only visitors, they are some
of our own. Motorcycles are a very good example of it. There are also some
flatbed,. trucks that habitually go bombing through the stop signs. Now my
neighbor and I have specifically watched one flatbed truck and we have yet to
find his license number and we do believe he is from Sierra Madre however, rather
than being local. I should have put that in the proper order. I say we pre-
I
sume him to be from Sierra Madre because he goes through the barricade area on
to Orange Grove and goes north. He has a little habit that when he hits the stop
sign and goes right on through it at high speed, he blows his horn which is in
my way of looking at it, a way of th(umbing his nose at you. If you happen to
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July 19, 1983
SAVAGE
be standing in your driveway as my neighbor and I have been, he gives you an
obscene gesture. Now we have tried to get his license number unsuccessfully
at this point cause he goes pretty fast but through past experience have known
that if I were to get that license number and pass it on to the police, they
could do nothing about it. There is no way in which any detection of that
license plate would result in any prohibition of that kind of act. He does
this in the morning, he does this in the evening and he does it late at night.
We have observed him and as I say we are still trying to catch that license
number for what use I do not know. It is a deliberate flaunting of the stop
signs. It is a deliberate flaunting of the barrier and fortunately it is
representative of a small minority of people who do this. We do believe that
I
the barrier has reduced the speed on the street, has reduced the noise on the
street and the stop signs have further helped us. We would not want to see any
of these assets removed. Thank you.
LOJESKI Mr. Savage. Approximately what time through the day does this flatbed roll
through?
SAVAGE
I would say, of course I am guessing because my neighbor and I are out there
tal~ng usually in the driveway when we see it but 4 o'clock in the afternoon is
the time that it comes to my attention. 10:00 or 11;00 o'clock at night when
I have been out there with my dog and then early in the morning in the vicinity
of 8:00 o'clock. He also, we believe it is the same one, he also has a conven-
tional car looks like the same person, I can't be sure of that, but we do think
it is the same one who is doing the same thing. In other words his cha'racter-
istics are the same. He blows his horn when he goes through the stop sign at tit
high speed and give you obscene gestures if he happens to see you standing th~
SAVAGE
LOJESKI
,
HOWARD
LOJESKI
WATTS
I
HOWARD
LOJESKI
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July 19, 1983
watching him.
Thank you very much. I think our police department would enjoy that information.
Mr. Chet Howard. Would you please explain to the benefit of the audience exactly
how speed limits are set on various streets.
Yes, your honor. No.1 we ClO through a speed zon,i:rig study for the benefit of the
police department. Once we do the zoning 'study then they can employ radar in
the enforcement of a properly established limit. In order to properly establish
the limit, they conduct a radar speed study, taking samples of not less than 100
cars. From those 100 cars we determine what the 85th percentile speed is. The
85th percentile speed is defined as that speed at or below which 85% of the
traffic is travelling that street. In addition to that information, we take into
consideration accident statistics and roadway alignment and based on that we recom-
mend an appropriate speed limit which'is subsequently presented to and approved
by the city council. Then we file that information with the courts and so far
they have upheld those speed 1 imits. Now in the fall of this year we will be
restudying the entire city but as I have commented earlier due to the change
and condition on San Carlos, we can restudy that within the next few weeks.
Thank you Mr. Howard. I think that is a benefit to the audience.
Mr. Howard. What would happen if we did a 'speed study again on San Carlos and
found that the speed was 30 mph but we went in and put in speed signs that said
25 mph and our police department ticketed people for going over 25 mph. What
would happen in that case?
Most probably the Traffic Commissioner would invalidate the citations.
Thank you gentlemen. Anyone else in the audience wishing to speak in opposition
of this item?
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p,
July 19, 1983
COPE Mr. Mayor, councilmen. I'm Perry Cope and I live at 1231 San Carlos Road. The
previous gentleman mentioned the accident on San Carlos earlier and I was the
victim of that. I know he had no insurance because he was in my front yard.
We looked at this whole question a number of years ago when I was on the Home-
owners Board and we ,looked, I think, at just about every possible solution thatl
there was to this problem because it occurred over a period of year.s. ' It is
not a new issue and after a couple of years of studying and working with people
in the city, we kind of narrowed it down to, first off was total closure. 100%
solution but that was a little bit too dramatic. We looked at the speed bumps.
We looked at the dips. We looked at, the tigerteeth. These were all thrown
out or recommended that we not pursue those things, or that we not push for those
things, or that we not recommend those things to the city. We got down to look-
ing at just a few alternatives available to us. One of them, of course, was
barricades, a combination of barricades and stop signs, stop signs only, do nothinf
except to have a 100% police protection which I don't think anyone could afford
and we took the most economical route and what we thought was the least disrup-
tiveand that was the barricades. I don't know anything else that we could have
done, less than having a police car there a large majority of the time, that
would have worked as effectively as economically as that. We are now sitting
in a situation where we have had barricades which worked fairly well, according
to reports, they didn't work totally and, that is why we have the stop signs. We
still have people go through there at high rates of speeds and now the city is
putting the stop signs which certainly has improved the situation so we have a
combination barricades and stop signs. If you start moving backwards in descel
ing order from that, go back to just barricades only, no stop signs, or no sto
signs and no barricades, you are going to have increased police protection.
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July 19, 1983
I
COPE No question about it. In talking about the expense of the barricades and
maintaining them or expense of anything else, nothing in my opinion is going
to come up and cost as much money as increased police protection. Now I
think it will work with stop signs if you have increased police protection but
I don't know if the city is able to do that. That is why the barricades worked.
So it is a difficult question and it is one in the Oaks up there and the Home-
owner's Group has worked with for years but that is what it comes down to, the
bottom line on this thing. Either keep what we have or start backing off from
that and start paying more money for it. Thank you.
LOJESKI Thank you Mr. Cope. Anyone else in the audience? The question has come up a
couple of times already in regards to sidewalks. Sidewalks are available ladies
and gentlemen but there is a specific way of doing that and if there is an interest
I suggest you contact Mr. Chester Howard at city hall who would be more than happy
to explain that orocedure to you.
BROWN
My name is Joseph Brown and I live at 1409 San Carlos Road. I too, have been up
here three or four times and it seems to me that we should put this to bed once
and for all.' What seems to be going on iS,as new board members come on, somebody
somehow gets the bright well, maybe we can eliminate it. What they don't real-
ize is that those stop signs and that barricade is as inconvenient or more in-
convenient to us, the residents of San Carlos, as it is to anybody else because
we are directly effected. We are directly effected because we do shop in Sierra
Madre, our children do attend schools in that area and we do transport them so
are
we have to go around. ,It is not a big Taj Mahal that we/building for ourselves
I
inside there-an exclusive country club. What it is we are trying to make the
street safe for the people in the area, the neighbors, our children, so that
they can walk down the side of the street. We are not playing football games
BROWN
Traffic Barriers
San Carlos etc.
I.f:? 1 f~X ''':,- ~
July 19 , 1983
like we use to out in the middle of the street. We are just tryin9 to survive
along the corner, along the gutters but the traffic problem has not allowed us
to do that. Now we put up a barricade and the idea of that was, it was going
to be a trial period. Originally as I recall it was going to be a simple in-
expensive barricade and it was going to be supported by the traffic count WhiChl
I am sure shows a dramatic decrease in the traffic and this was going to give
you people an indication of whether a permanent barricade was going to be in-
stalled. You said that it would take a year's study and at that time, if the
traffic count warranted it, that you would put in a permanent and something that
wasn't an eyesore that the city and residents could live with. As far as I am
concerned, you could put barbed wire around there, r would prefer it to be nice
but the effect that it has is that it does decrease the traffic. Now those
people and they are obviously coming from Sierra Madre that go around the bar-
ricade are not going to stop for your pretty little stop signs because they just
broke one law, what's the difference if they break another one, two or three
down the street. The installation of a permanently designed barricade, triangular
shape, 2 or 3 feet off the ground made out of concrete would definitely be more
inconvenient to circumvent than what you have now. 'All you are doing now is
scraping tires. If you made it properly like you see in freeway construction,
it would be 2 or 3 feet off the ground, there would be planting in there and
nobody is going to scrape a tire. You are going to rip a fender. This is going
to persuade people not try and cut that corner. Now if they want to come in
there, they can go in there the same way I go in there. If I want to go in there
I have to turn off of Baldwin, go down Orange Grove and turn right. If I
want to leave going that way I have to come up to Orange Grove and turn
It is as inconvenient for me as it is anybody else and all I would like
BROWN
I
LOJESKI
IN FAVOR
RAKlCH
LOJESKI
JAHNKE
I
Traffic Barriers
San Carlos etc.
~ I'.
July 19, 1983
is that you have the facts in front of you and I,think it is time now after 6
years that this problem has been going on and wasting the City Council's time
over something that is not that important because you have a whole city to
run, let's get it put away once and for all. Thank you very much.
Thank you Mr. Brown. Anyone else wishing to speak in favor'of keeping the
barricades? Those in favor of removing the barricades.
My name is John Rakich.. I reside at 185 Upper'San Carlos which is called
185 So. Mountain Trail Avenue. I have lived there for 20, years. I have
always come down San Carlos, never had' any problem until they put the barrier
up. Now I have to go a half a mile out of my way to get to the mall or any
place in central Arcadia which amounts to about 300 miles a year'or 150 days
for a lot of people in Sierra Madre and the odd thing about it is that when I
come south on Mountain Trail, I cannot cross Orange Grove because of the sign,
but when I am going north on San Carlos, I cannot leave Arcadia because of the
sign. I have to turn right so what kind of a situation is that and another
thing~San Carlos is a street only 4 tenths of a mile long with 5 stop signs
and I defy anybody with a compact tar to drive 35 miles an hour on San Carlos
without going through a stop sign and I think the barricades should be removed
in order to promote good,relations with the citizens of Sierra Madre which in-
cludes me and I also would like to be reimbursed for 2 citations amounting to
$64.00. Thank you.
Thank you Mr. Rakich.
Fred Jahnke, 11 Hacienda Drive, Arcadia. Hacienda is the only street that has not
been mentioned tonight as having a high speed problem in relation tO,an accident.
The accident that you heard about was high speed on Hacienda. It stopped on San
Carlos. I would like to note several things. I recognize the seriousness of
JAHNKE
Traffic Barriers
San Carlos etc.
,July 19, 1983
the situation but I think you gentlemen are faced with the old adage when you
are ,up to your elbows in alligators it's hard to remember that you have come
to drain the swamp and I think that is where you find yourselves this evening.
When this whole issue started it was a question of safety down San Carlos. I
think really the meat of it is that where it still lies. Safety is not neces- ,
sarily the number of cars going down the street. It is th~~ speed and the
way in which they drive. I do not think that the barricade has served to slow
the speed on San Carlos at all. I think Mr. Howard's surveys will show that to
you'. I think the stop signs although very recent, have by Mr. Howard's testi-
mony already put a dent in the speed and thus in the safety along, San Carlos.
I think strong enforcement of those 'for a period of time will certainly net the
safety which we are looking for. I think Mr. Mayor your comment relative to
the ability of the citizens to put in sidewalks on that street is a very valid
one. If the citizens are willing for the city to spend the kind of money they
are asking to be spent here for their particular street, I think they should]
take a strong look at putting in the sidewalks themselves under the city plan.
I would also submit that the barricade in itself is a hazard. Let me note that
I do not'drive San Carlos north or south, nor do I drive north of'San Carlos.
I do drive along Orange Grove Street both in the morning and in the afternoon
and again at noon time almost every day. I have seen enough near misses there
when there is not a patrol car sitting by, from the people who do not observe
the barrier, as we all know they do not observe the barrier and it is an unex-
pected type of situation. I think you must remember that the barricade is not
something normally encountered by drivers. Stop signs are something ,normally I
encountered by drivers. I think therefore, you have the risk and the hazard
of the barricade. I think you also' have the people who essentially make obscene
JAHNKE
,
I
Traffic Barriers,
San Carlos etc.
.'e let ~ "
July 19, 1983
gestures at the barricade. They don't believe in it and they are not going to
follow it,and unfortunately or fortunately as the case may be, you cannot design
that barricade to absolutely prohibit north, south traffic. I don't care if'its
1 foot high or 3D feet high, it cannot absolutely prohibit north, south traffic
and I think Mr. Howard will testify to that when he tried to engineer it the first
time coming up against state law that just made it impossible to engineer it that
way. Therefore, I think the barricade is unenforceable. I think that the stop
signs over a period of time will do a far better job in enforcing safety there.
I also object as a tax payer in this'city as much as I would like to have a pri-
vate, semi-private or a barricaded street on Hacienda where there is also high
speed traffic, I object because it is expensive. I don't know how many times
, .'
I've seen the signs ripped off of there after a holiday weekend or whatever and
I know that the crew has to go up and replace them that is not cheap. Another
$5,000 to $9,000 to put in a "proper barricade'! is another expense to the city.
One which I'don't think will achieve anything. I think to a large extent the
barricade as it stands is somewhat of an insult to our neighbors in Sierra
Madre and there may be a 1 ughter about that but I feel ,it very strongly.' I
would also say that I think it is discriminatory, it is discriminatory to those
of us who would also like to have a semi-private street who have not banded to-
gether to badger the city council to put that in for us and frankly we have no
intention of it but I think it flies in the face of the definition of a public
access and public streets and as I say I think what we want to remember is what
.
we are trying to do is provide safety for that area. I think stop signs are
proving that they will provide that and I think sidewalks will further better
that situation. I do not feel that the barricade has accomplished or will
accomplish any degree of safety for the residents or anyone in that area. Thank YOI
Traffic Barriers
San Carlos etc.
July 19, 1983
LOJESKI Thank you Mr. Jahnke.
FASCHING My name is Georqe Fa~ching. I live at 1451 Oaklawn Road. Gentlemen I am in
opposition to this barricade and hereby request its removal. However, I must
admit before 1 go to mY notes that I have writ~en out here, that in listening
to the people that are in favor of keeping the barricade, I had an impulse of ,
possibly getting up and leaving and thinking to mYself, they all make sense and
why am I here, because we are all interested in safety and we are all interested
in the residential quality of our neighborhoods but yet as I listened on I
couldn't help but feel that the same people saying those things regarding
t
San Carlos, could be the same people living on First Avenue or Camino Real or
Longden Avenue, many other streets in our city that would like the same consia-
eration of a barricade and implementation of many stop signs to slow down
traffic and much heavier concentrated residential areas than we are talking
about here on San Carlos Road., So for that reason my opposition to this
barricade will continue very s~rongly. At the conclusion of this public hear-
ing, it will be your responsibility to rule on the San Carlos Road barricade.
In reaching your decision you must set aside the emotion and friendship that
naturally you feel for both sides in this matter and base your decisions
strictly on facts. Some of the facts are these. There has never ,been a pedes-
trian accident involving an automobile on San Carlos Road. The maintenance and
surveillance of this barricade is an undue financial imposition' on our commun-
ity and our city cannot adopt a policy of street barricades without utmost
justification for the safety of life and property. Such justification does not,
sented to the residents of the Oaks is secondary to the precedent it is
pre- I
settin
exist on San Carlos Road. The personal inconvenience of this barricade
July 19, 1983
FASCHING and the animosity it has created particularly with our neighbors in Sierra
Madre. As for precedent I can see no reason why other residential streets
and residents of those areas would not have to be treated with equal control
measures if so requested. This could open up a pandora's box. You also
have recently seen fit to erect 2 additional sets of stop signs on San Carlos.
These stop signs are not an issue here this evening but I would like to point
out to you that based on Automobile Club of South California statistics, you
have helped approximately 1,000 daily motorists on San Carlos Road to spend an
additional, $15,600 a year in vehicle operation expense; taken 2400 hours of their
time in stopping and caused them to buy 6600 gallons more of gasoline. Also
from their emissions stopping at these two additional sets of stop signs, we
are breathing annually 12,400 more pounds of carbon monoxide, 900 pounds of
hydrocarbons and 900 pounds of nitrous oxides. I hear some laughter behind me
and I guess it is rather amusing but these are stark facts gentlemen when you
start treating streets the way you have done with San Carlos. Quite frankly,
I am surprised at the extreme restrictive measures taken on San Carlos Road
and mind you none of this requested or recommended by any agency within our
city, this including the police department and street engineering. Gentlemen,
I reiterate this barricade should go. In addition to those in the audience
tonight supporting this measure, I would like to submit an additional 46
signed requests from Oaks residents who are not able to attend this meeting here
tonight. Thank you.
Thank you Mr. Fasching.
My name is Keith Smith and I live at 420 Arbolada Drive. That's 1 house off
of San Carlos. Honorable Mayor and council, you have seen me address this august
group several times regarding this very same issue and I have not changed my mind
,
LOJESKI
I
SMITH
Traffic Barriers
San Carlos etc.
Traffic Barriers
San Carlos etc.
...C
July 19, 1983
SMITH
one iota. I am an ex California Highway Patrol Officer and I have some ex-
perience in traffic control over the years. I feel that we ,are making a tempest
in a teapot out of this San Carlos situation and I agree 100% with Geogge Fasching
in how he has oresented it. After looking at the figures that were I believe
"" "th",d by th, ""o',t;,o ;t"lf, "t ,f 476 p"p1, o,ot,ot,d ,oly 222111i
responded and out of those 222, 119 mind you that means 119 out of 467 people
in that area, agreed that that barricade should stay there. I don't believe
that is a good representation. I believe it represents a pressure group, a
minority pressure group trying to force their will on the whole 'Santa Anita
Oaks. I believe after listening to these people cry that I think we should
reresurr~ct the Ohio Electric, and everybody' change at the bottom of San Carlos
and,drive up to the top in an Ohio Electric. I just cannot believe it. I
think that I am a pretty good judge of speed. I am afraid that some of these
people are not through no fault of their own, they are just not trained. I
was trained to know within a mile or'two about how fast a car was moving when
I was on the highway patrol. Otherwise I would be made a fool of. I don't
believe the speeds are'what they are talking about and I have lived there 32
years and there has been no death in that area in those 32 years and as far as
LOJESKI
I can figure out there have only been 2 personal injury accidents over that
period of time. I won't rely on that 2, there may have been more but I do
feel that we are literally shutting off a thoroughfare that should not be
shut off, much less what we are doing to a neighborhood city who rely upon
,that street to go to and from their homes, work and pleasure. Thank you.
Thank you Mr. Smith.
FLINN
My name is James Flinn and I live at 1112 San Carlos Road, north of Foothill
and I have lived there for 24 years. I have never seen the kind of traffic
I
I
I
fFitful
LOJESKI
LAUBER
Tri:,j'fic Barriers
San Carlos etc.
~
July 19, 1983
that I have heard described by those who want to keep that barricade up there.
I have walked my dog thousands of times and I have walked with my wife and
my children on that street and I don't recall ever having heard of a pedes-
trianc car accident there. I have appeared' before this group several times
before. Originally as the President of The Homeowner's Association and I'm
delighted to know that the present incumbent in that office voted against it
because I've always voted against it. I vote against it because it is inef-
fective. I am retired now and I have had ample opportunity to go up and watch
what goes on and virtually no one pays any attention unless a police car happens
to be sitting there. If there is no police car visible, they go barrelling
through and the most dramatic change that we have seen has occurred since the
stop signs were put in. While perhaps not everybody agrees to stop at their
stop signs and I "have seen a few people go through them, the bulk of the people
do stop. It is a much more effective device than the barricade. I am also
against the barricade because it denies all of us who live on San Carlos Rd.
full access to our property which other people who live in this city enjoy.
We should not be discriminated against in that manner. I agree with Mr. Fasching.
I agree with all the data that he has and I would like very much to see you
gentlemen vote in favo r of the removal of that barricade. Thank you.
Thank you Mr. Flinn.
I am Floretta K. Lauber and I reside at lL25 Oaklawn Road. Good evening gentle-
men. I am here to testify that my husband and I are adamantly opposed to the
barrier and always have been. We acquiesced several years ago with the Home-
owner's Association compromise,!, There were a few who wanted to put gates
on the entire area. We are not isolationists. We did not move' into Arcadia
to have ourselves barricaded against the outside or to keep our friends and
Traffi~ Barriers
San Carlos Etc.
July 19, 1983
LAUBER
neighbors from approaching our home in a normal manner. It appears that we
live in an entirely different street or area listening to some of my neighbors
and good friends here this evening because we walk also and we are retired.
I have never seen,a problem. Perhaps I have had some experience as you have,
I remember sitting on the Planning Commission for 8 years and having people
request speed bumps, dips etc. and you know as well as I do that that is
illegal. I feel that the barricade is a very poor execution of planning.
I
There
is no justification and there never has been but since we compromised to have a
barricade there, we decided'to live with it but out of the blue, we find one
morning that we now have 4 stop signs. Now I don't know how many of you council-
men have had the'opportunity to visit San Carlos but I would like you to come
up and just park, come on over and visit me. We will drive over, walk over.
You wi'l1 find a very peaceful area, completely void of the hassle, the harass-
ment that you have heard testified tonight.' In no way, in no way can you justi-
fy 4 stop signs and a barricade. It is like a war zone. To begin with it is
sight pollution at its highest form. There are 13 little signs or reflectors
on that 1 barricade. I don't know how many times even though I have got used
to it and I try very carefully to turn in properly, it has knocked our wheels
out of alignment and this is no small matter and I resent it. I bought there
in 1966. I thought Raymond Dorn did an excellent job of laying out that area.
We really do not have a problem and I truly resent being made a prisoner in
my own area. Since the terms of the game have changed and we now have these
LOJESKI
~tra stop signs, then it appears to me that the only legitimate and equitable
compromise that we can now have is to remove the barricade. We certainly do I
not need them all. Thank you.
Thank you Mrs. Lauber. Anyone else wishinq to speak in favor of 't!1mOVa!1l-22
Traffic Barriers
San Carlos etc.
July 19, 1983
LOJESKI
of the barricades?
Sierra Madre
Trail/and it appears
WILWERDING
My name is Jerry Wilwerding and I live at 215 So. Mountain
to me that the strong opposition of the vested interestQ,i group association is
I
a very formidable one. They come here well rehearsed to say the things they
have agreed on before in an effort to.sway the elected officials.' Because
the Santa Anita Oaks are so well organized they become a major political pressure
group. They are the selfish ones because they prevent us from coming into their
area. It' is too bad about the many people who are dog walkers. I have dogs too
and if I can't walk my dog in the area that I live, I put them in the car and
take them somewhere else. I might suggest that if their dog is in hazard, they
could do the same. Sierra Madre has no sidewalks. I think our streets are-no
they are not as wide as they are on San Carlos. I don't believe in benefits to
the few in the Santa Anita Oaks. I doubt that any person in Sierra Madre wishes
his child killed or put in jeopardy anymore than the people in the Santa Anita
Oaks and I think that is not a good argument. I am a taxpayer in Arcadia. I
venture to say that I p.ay more taxes than 90% of the people that 1 ive in the
Santa Anita Oaks, Santa Anita area/because I have apartment buildings in Arcadia.
It is beneficial to me to c,6me down Mountain Trail and cross at the intersection
because I can get down to my apartments at least 3/4 mile more quickly. I
think the obstacle should be removed. Not for me but for the benefit of all
the people in Sierra Madre and Arcadia. Thank you.
LOJESKI Thank you Mr. Wilwerding. Anyone else wishing to speak in favor of removal of
the barricade? ' Gentlemen I will entertain a motion to close...
I
HANNAH
I move that we close the public hearing.
DRING
Second
LOJESKI So closed.
Traffic Barriers
San Carlos etc.
July 19, 1983
LOJESKI Councilman Haltom
HALTOM I probably ,should have stood up in opposition to it because I have always been
in opposition to it. Not just because it isolates the people in the Oaks and
keeps other people from using it because I feel that it is constitutionally
illegal. Streets of Arcadia are not only paid for by the residents of Arcadia I
but by all the people of Cal ifornia. They are paid for with tax dollars. ' That
who pays to maintain our streets. Not our real estate dollars and I have always
felt that it was, constitutionally wrong and unfair not to. have access the streets
that I pay for and I have exhibited that when coming south many times and will
continue to do so. I think that the council, whether it is this one, previous
succumbed ' ,
one whichever one put barricades,in I' 'to a small pressure group and al10w~d~'
their emotions to get a little carried away. I agree that we have an obligation
to provide safety for the people up there and I don't know what the answer is.
I think the stop signs were a move in the right direction but I know the bar-
ricade wasn't. i think all the barricade causes' is a lot of animOSity between
the people of
Madre aga i nst
Arcadia against the peoD1e of Arcadia and the people of Sierra
. \"',~.:'irl.
"~;iP
the people of Arcadia and if we do decide to keep it up there,
then I think I'll start an effort to try to get one put up on Longden because
I am sure that Longden down by where I live is no wider than San Carlos and I am
, reasonably sure it carries more traffic and I can't walk my dog down Longden,
definitely.' I can't even run down Longden for the air pollution but' I don't
think the barrier is serving its purpose. Thank you.
LOJESKI Thank you councilman Haltom. Councilman Pellegrino
PELLE
Mr. Mayor. I don't feel thPt the pressure groups are a bad thing, I think it il
a healthY thing in the city. I think the different restrictions for different
parts of our city should be brought to the council. Ihat is the reason we take
~
PELLE
I
LOJESKI
DRING
LOJESKI
HANNAH
I
LOJESKI
HANNAH
Traffic Barriers
San Carlos etc.
July 19, 1983
our oath of office. We are servants of the public. There are such thin9s as
one way streets, there are such things as barriers, stop signs for the purpose
of the people that live in the neighborhood that they belong in. I don't know
how you would compare the cost or the expense or the maintenance of the costs
of the barrier to the costs of a life, We have no record of'lifes thank ~od
and we should keep it that way. Speed bumps and stuff of that sort and,tiger
teeth carry a heavy liability for the city to even look forward to put in a
residential neighborhood and I feel that we should leave ,the barrier until we
can reduce the speed on'San Carlos to a residential speed instead of a commercial
district. Thank you.
Councilman Dring. Have you got anything to add?
Not yet. .
Councilman Hannah
I am sympathetic to the cause of safety in,all cases and I certainly would be
sorry to see any accident occur on San Carlos as a result of anything we did here
tonight. However I don't think that the situation on San Carlos is much different
than it is on many of the streets in Arcadia. I think we have an overall problem
of some people violating the speed laws. I know we have the same situation on
'my street. I think we out this barrier up as a temporary measure. I was not on
the council at the time that it was erected. It was told to me that it was a
temporary '90 day, 9 month barricade. I would like to see it removed on a temporary
basis the same way as we put it up on a temporary basis for a period of time and
see what happens and at that time I would like to see our law enforcement agency
spend extra time in the area to find out 'whether or not the people are violating
the laws, what the speed limit is and what have you.
Is that a motion?
No, it is not a motion.
Trilffi.c Barri ers
San Carlos etc.
July 19, 1983
LOJESKI Going bilCk to the beginning of time on this particular item, I happen to be the
only councilman that lives in this directly effected area. I, too live obviously
live on a north, south running street, one which traverses through the area and
connects Sierra Madre to the north and Foothill Blvd. and: the freeway to the
south. In those early days I too walked my street, polled my homeowners
and ,
numbe
of me
again as a reiteration the main concern from day 1 was speed of cars not
of cars and I have to agree that when I start looking at things in front
in regards to 1. the condition of the barricade as it has been put up, the
conditions of the signs when they go up and immediately come down and immediately
go back up again, the expense perhaps in the future of creating a fixed barricade
or permanent barricade the expense of ongoing maintenance for such an item and
really not fully understanding the effectiveness, I think of the stop signs that
were placed. The stop signs were, placed after the poll was taken by the Home-
owner's Association and, of interest to those of you in the audience from the
letter from Mr. Thurston Le Vay, President, of the Homeowner's Association,
he stated that there were comments and letters received, comments in addition
to just those that voted and there a number of comments that stated that diverters
are not the real answer to the basic problem. It offers a reduction in through
traffic as a substitute for the control of speed of through traffic. Many
expressions of people against the diverter were that better speed control was
desired and many people voting to keep the diverter stated their desire to not
restrict the passage of through traffic if adequate speed control can be
achieved. I think since traffic control measures, excuse me, speed control
measures were placed the only effective measure has been the stop signs. We I
have seen through Mr. Howard's statements this evening, through our police
department checking with radar the speed of the cars, the speed of traffic has
been diminished. Unfortunately no matter how you go on this situation it is a
,
I
LOJESK1
PELLE
LOJESK1
PELLE
HANNAH
LOJESK1
PELLE
LOJESK1
HANNAH
PELLE
HANNAH
HOWARD
PELLE
HANNAH
LOJESK1
PELLE
Traffic Barriers
San Car' os etc.
July 19, 1983
no win situation but I think in the best interests of the situation and what
have been attempted in the area and in the best interests of what is there now,
the removal of the barricade and guaranteeing that there would be an irregular
non-patterned patrol of the area by our police officers in keeping the stop signs
there, I think will prove to be beneficial in the long run. Thank you.
Mr. Mayor, may I try a motion.
Councilman Pellegrino.
I move that we post the lowest limit of speed on the street that we possibly can
enforce and remove the barriers on a' temporary basis.
I would second that motion.
Would yo~ repeat your motion once again please.
I move that we post the lowest speed limit that we possibly can put on the street
that is enforceable and remove the barrier on a temporary basis.
Any discussion? Seconded by councilman Hannah.
When I was talking about a tempor~ry removal I think'we should set a period of
time which we can gather some statistics in which we can find out, now has..
I will be glad to include that in my motion.
Can you put a time limit in there, say 6 months?
My 'recollectionis that the original traffic barrier was to be temporary to be
studied over a period of was it 9 months? That was my recollection and for an
adequate study period I wouldn't suggest anything less than 6.
I would like to include my motion 6 months. I think 9 months is too long.
My personal opinion.
I second.
Would you include in your motion Councilman Pellegrino, irregular non-pattern
patrol of the area to insure the maintenance of obeying the stop signs.
Yes sir.