HomeMy WebLinkAboutNOVEMBER 2,1999
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CITY COUNCIL PROCEEDINGS ARE AUDIO AND VIDEO TAPE RECORDED AND ON FILE IN THE
OFFICE OF THE CITY CLERK
1,
ROLL CALL:
2.
0690-0;
3,
3a
FOU...GER F<R)
SITE
06'i'o -tJ.:J
MINUTES
CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF ARCADIA
and the
ARCADIA REDEVELOPMENT AGENCY
REGULAR MEETING
November 2, 1999
The City Council and the Arcadia Redevelopment Agency met in a Regular Meeting on
Tuesday, November 2, 1999, at 5:00 p,m. in the Conference Room of the City Council
Chambers,
PRESENT: Counpilmembers Harbichl, Kovacic, Marshall, Roncelli and Chandler
ABSENT: None
AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION
Alex Wona, representing Trammell Crow Residential, a national multi-family developer,
highlighted his company's background and their development projects, stating that his
company is the largest apartment developer in the country, Mr, Wong explained in detail
Trammell Crow's proposed multi-family residential project for the Foulger Ford site, In
his opinion a multi-family development will create a population of higher income, high-
end rental, revenue and an overall good image for the downtown area, In response to
Councilmember Kovacic, Mr. Wong said Trammell Crow would like to assemble the
whole triangle and build high-end residential and mixed use. If only the Foulger Ford site
is acquired they would build residential only.
Tonv Henrich, President, Lower Rancho. Homeowners Association, stated, in part, that
the association is interested in, and will support, the Floor Area Ratio in order to control
the hannony in the area,
STUDY SESSION (TRANSCRIPT HAS BEEN PREPARED)
In consideration of the Foulger Ford site and adjacent properties within that
Redevelopment Project Area, staff submitted a list of various categories of uses for City
Council/Agency discussion and consideration of what is and what is not acceptable.
In his presentation Mr, Don Penman, City Manager Pro tem and Director of
Development Services, explained in detail the general category of uses which are
suitable for this site, such as; commercial, office, entertainment, residential or mixed
use,
In the discussion Council/Agency Member Roncelli noted that he is in favor of senior
housing. There are plenty of Arcadia residents who are getting to that age and would
like to move into smaller quarters, but stay in Arcadia, He especially appreciated Mr.
Wong's idea about high-end and luxury residential living,
Council/Agency Member Marshall stated, in part, that the City has a lot of areas that are
retail which are spread out all over the City. If the Council decides to use the Foulger
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INN SITE
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A.OORAREA
RA1lO(FAR)
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Ford site for retail, she is not sure the affect that the Santa Anita (Westfield) Mall
expansion and the race track development might have on this area.
Council/Agency Member Kovacic felt that the City Council should decide on larger scale,
mixed use development which could include residential and ask developers to send
proposals for either the entire triangle or a substantial portion of the triangle, and use the
power of eminent domain under the right circumstances. He is in favor of larger mixed
use,
Considerable discussion ensued, Some Council/Agency Members felt the areas under
consideration could be left to development proposals by the free market; others felt that
the Council/Agency should create a vision of what they would like this area to be and
then ask developers for proposals,
The Council/Agency Members concluded they would consider the use of eminent domain
in the right circumstances; they would consider high-end development and they would
ask developers for RFP's for a large mixed use project.
City Manager Kelly, stated, in part, that under redevelopment law, the City also needs to
give all the property owners in the area the opportunity to submit a proposal to show how
they would want this site to develop,
In consideration of the Santa Anita Inn site, the City Council/Agency decided to wait for
six months to see if the free enterprise market would take place or if there are some
f.!t; , hotels interested in buying this property and continue to operate it as a hotel.
THE ARCADIA REDEVELOPMENT AGENCY RECESSED TO ACT AS
THE ARCADIA CITY COUNCIL
STUDY SESSION
The City Council at its July 20, 1999 meeting directed staff to bring back information for
Council's consideration on a procedure that a homeowners association could follow with
regard to Floor Area Ratio (FAR).
Don Penman, City Manager Pro tem/Director Development Services, began his
presentation with the history of HOA's and ARB's noting that the City Council by
ordinances and resolutions created Homeowners Associations. This for the purpose of
providing architectural design review for projects within their neighborhoods, Many of
the current HOA and ARB members are not fully aware of what their responsibilities and
limitations are, Staff suggested that training sessions be held to introduce the members
to the limits of their authority and what they can and can not review,
With regard to FAR, Mr. Penman, stated, in part, that there has been some interest
expressed by HOA's that they would like to see a floor-area-ratio in their area. Mr.
Penman presented a proposal that would begin with the members of an association
petitioning for a change which would require a two-thirds approval in a formal vote by the
area's homeowners before the specific proposal could be adopted by the City Council,
Councilmember Harbicht felt that scheduling periodic training sessions for Homeowners
Association and Architectural Review Board members is a good idea. They are an arm
of the City Council and are working on Council's behalf and it is up to the Council to
make sure that they are following all the legal requirements as protection for the citizens
and for themselves, With regard to a FAR Mr. Harbicht, stated, in part, if a homeowners
association wants to establish a floor-are a-ratio the City should have an apparatus to
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ROLL CALL
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make that possible, in his opinion the City should set up a system which would make
sure that there is full knowledge on the part of the residents who live in the affected area
as to what is going to happen and what the impact will be, and they should have the right
to have some impartial analysis and/or arguments in favor or against the issue,
Considerable discussion ensued centered on the sense of urgency compared to ongoing
City projects and concluded by the following motion, it was MOVED by Council/Agency
Member Harbicht, seconded by Council/Agency Member Roncelli and CARRIED on roll
call vote as follows to DIRECT staff 10 set up training sessions for ARB's and also begin
the process to draft specific procedures to be presented to the Council at a future date
for instituting a f1oor-area-ralio to lot size and general guidelines,
AYES:
NOES:
ABSENT:
Councilmembers Harbicht, Kovacic, Marshall, Roncelli and Chandler
None
None
At 6:56 p,m. the City Council RECESSED and RECONVENED the Regular Meeting in
the Council Chambers at 7:07 p,m,
INVOCAilON Reverend Thomas Shriver, Emmanuel Assembly of God
Chaplain, Arcadia Police Department
PLEDGE OF Donald Penman, City Manager Pro tem/Director Development Services
ALLEGIANCE
ROLL CALL:
5,
ORD. & RES,
READ BY
TITLE ONLY
6,
PRESENT: Councilmembers Harbicht, Kovacic, Marshall, Roncelli and Chandler
ABSENT: None
SUPPLEMENTAL INFORMATION FROM STAFF REGARDING AGENDA ITEMS
City Manager, Kelly introduced the new Police Captain, Robert Sanderson,
The City Council concurred that the Council will meet on December 21, 1999 for a
Regular Meeting as scheduled,
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City Attomey, Michael Miller, expressed appreciation to' everyone who made his
retirement dinner successful, Mr. Miller appreciated all the tributes, particularly those
from State Assemblyman Margell, professional groups and the City Council.
Mr. Miller stated, in part, that during his 17 year career as City Attorney of the City of
Arcadia, he met a .lot of the members of the public, worked with them and learned a lot
from them, Mr. Miller noted, "Arcadia has been an excellent community to represent, I
have enjoyed it, and I thank you".
It was MOVED by Mayor Pro tern Harbicht, seconded by Councilmember Marshall and
CARRIED that ordinances and resolutions be read by title only and that the reading in
full be WAIVED.
AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION
Barbara Budd, owner of Barbara's Beauty Boutique, First Avenue, announced that after
twenty eight years (28) of retailing in Arcadia she is now in the process of liquidating her
business and closing the doors forever on Sunday November 28, 1999. Mrs. Budd
thanked the City Council, the loyal Arcadians, and especially Councilmembers Gail
Marshall and Gino Roncelli for their support and understanding, She hoped the City
Council will continue to do everything in their power to promote and support Arcadia
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small businesses because they are the back bone of the City's commerce,
Lee Seoal, President of the Arcadia High School PTA, stated, in part, that the Arcadia I
High SchOOl Band will be in the Chino Band Review next weekend also the band will
perform in the year 2000 Rose Parade, Ms. Segal highlighted some of the activities at
the Arcadia High School, which included the Booster Club Hall of Fame Night, Y2K
program and a drama production.
Garland Roberson, Sullivan's Paint, 134 East Huntington Drive, announced that the
Arcadia Business Association and merchants on First Avenue will hold a Pre-Holiday
Craft Fair, Wednesday, November 17, 1999, from 4:00 p,m, to 8:00 p.m. on First
Avenue.
MATTERS FROM ELECTED OFFICIALS
Councilmember Roncelli thanked the C,O,P.S. committee members and Mr, Bill Davila
for the great job they did in support of Measure C,
ryJ. Floral Ave,) Mr. Roncelli requested follow-up by staff of complaints from neighbors on West Floral
Avenue in regard to a resident in that area using his garage to repair cars.
(Mag-lev)
Mr. Roncelli requested an updated report on Mag-lev, a magnetic levitation
transportation system which would run down the 210 freeway area by the tracks, The
plans indicate a proposal for a stop station in Arcadia,
(Roundtable) Mr, Roncelli noted about two weeks ago he attended a CEO roundtable meeting hosted
by the Monrovia City Manager, in Monrovia, with the participation of about 20 or 30 of
the largest companies in that City. The reason for this gathering was to give information I
in regard to what is going on in the City. He felt it would be a great idea to conduct such
informative meetings in the City of Arcadia as well.
(Burglar Bars)
(Budd)
MARSHALL
(Budd)
(C,O.P.S and
Election)
In response to Council member Roncelli's comment in regard to the burglar bars on a
liquor store at the comer of Colorado and First Avenue, staff stated, in part, that City
staff visited the property and gave notice that if they failed to comply they would be in
court sooner or later and the City would get compliance. "
Councilmember Roncelli congratulated Ms. Barbara Budd' for being in business for
twenty eight (28) years in the City of Arcadia,
Councilmember Marshall congratulated Ms, Budd on her retirement.
Ms. Marshall thanked everyone who worked on the C.O.P.S committee for the bond
issue. She urged everyone to vote yes on this important measure.
(School Parents) Ms. Marshall thanked the Arcadia school parents and teachers for their time, effort and
dedication to make Arcadia schools great.
(Veteran's Day) Ms, Marshall encouraged everyone to fly their flag on Veteran's Day, November 11,
1999 to honor veterans, the ones who are still alive and the ones who have passed on.
(Food for
Thought)
Ms, Marshall shared a "food for thought", by Douglas Mac Arthur, in 1962, "The solider
above all other people prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds
and scars of war",
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KOVACIC
(C.O.P.S.)
ALFORD
(Election)
(City Election)
CHANDLER
(C.O.P,S,)
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Councilmember Kovacic congratulated the C.O.P,S, committee for their promotion of
Measure C and for putting Arcadia first.
City Clerk, June Alford informed the public that there is still time to go to polls and vote
on Measure C, The results 01 the election will be posted on the County Clerk's website
and updated every twenty (20) minutes.
Ms, Alford announced that the City election will be held on April 11, 2000, Nominations
for this election will be open for two members of the City Council and a City Clerk on
December 20, 1999.
Mayor Chandler thanked all the volunteers on the C,O.P.S. committee.
(Fall Clean-up) Mayor Chandler announced that a fall clean up throughout the City has been scheduled
for November 13, 1999 by U,SA Waste Management.
8,
ROLL CALL
8a,
MINUTES
(October 19,
1999)
(APPROVED)
THE CITY COUNCIL RECESSED TO ACT AS
THE ARCADIA REDEVELOPMENT AGENCY
PRESENT: Agency Members Harbicht, Kovacic, Marshall, Roncelli and Chandler
ABSENT: None
It was MOVED by Agency Member Harbicht, seconded by Agency Member Kovacic and
CARRIED to APPROVE the October 19, 1999 Minutes of the Arcadia Redevelopment
Agency Regular Meeting,
ADJOURNMENT The meeting of the Arcadia Redevelopment Agency ADJOURNED to November 16,
1999 at 6:00 p,m.
9,
9a,
MINUTES
(10-19-1999)
THE CITY COUNCIL RECONVENED
CONSENT ITEMS
APPROVED the Minutes of the October 19, 1999 Regular Meeting.
9b.
FINAL TR. MAP APPROVED the Final Map of Tract No, 52515 for a twelve-unit residential condominium
NO. 52515 project at 631 Fairview Avenue provided that before the final map is recorded all
(631 Fairview) outstanding conditions of approval shall be complied with the satisfaction of the City
o .1.-i!JtJ , ~I () Engineer, '
9c,
AGREEMENT AUTHORIZED the Mayor and City Clerk to EXECUTE. in a fonn approved by the City
CITYIAUSD Attorney, the agreement between the City of Arcadia and Arcadia Unified School District
(Athletic Field for the construction, maintenance and joint use of athletic field lighting at Dana Middle
Lighting - Dana, School, First Avenue Middle School and Arcadia High School for school and recreational
1 s Ave, Middle purposes,
School and
High School)
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9d,
AWARD 1-YR.
CONTRACT
(Janitorial and
Porter SVC5.)
0730~qO
ge,
PROF. SVCS.
AGREEMENT
(Foothill Blvd,
Sewer Relief
Line - Rancho
Rd, to Santa
Anita)
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AWARDED a twelve (12) month contract, with annual contract extensions subject to City
Council approval, in the amount of $122,487.60 to L.A. Cha Maintenance Co" for the
Janitorial and Porter Services at Various City Facilities; and, AUTHORIZED the City
Manager and City Clerk to EXECUTE a contract in a form approved by the City Attomey.
In response to Council's questions staff stated, in part, that the contract was for
$94,752,00 in fiscal year 1998-99 for janitorial and porter services. The contractor felt
that they underbid the project and requested an increase, which was denied by the City.
For FY 1997-98, the contract price was $115,000,00.
AWARDED a Professional Services Agreement in the amount of $87,030,00 to
Associated Engineers Inc., for the design, construction support and inspection for the
Foothill Boulevard Sewer Relief Line; and, AUTHORIZED the City Manager and City
Clerk to EXECUTE a contract in a form approved by the City Attomey.
In response to a Councilmember question, City Manager Kelly stated, in part, that most
of the time the contract comes under or right at the estimated budget amount for
projects. The only time the budget goes over is when there are unusual circumstances
that we did not know about beforehand,
THE PRECEDING CONSENT ITEMS 9a, b, c, d and e APPROVED ON MOTION BY
COUNCILMEMBER KOVACIC, SECONDED BY COUNCILMEMBER MARSHALL AND
CARRIED ON ROLL CALL VOTE AS FOLLOWS:
AYES:
NOES:
ABSENT:
Councilmembers Harbicht, Kovacic, Marshall, Roncelli and Chandler
None
None
CITY MANAGER
10a,
CENTENNIAL Consideration of the report and recommendation to fill two vacancies on the Centennial
CELEBRATION Celebration Commission, The Centennial Commission is comprised of fifteen (15)
COMMISSION members appointed by the City Council. Recently two members resigned, one for health
(Fee & WUO) reasons and one moved out of the area.
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The remaining commission members discussed the Citizen Service Resumes on file at
their October 18 meeting and recommended the appointment of June Fee and John
Woo to fill the existing vacancies.
It was MOVED by Mayor Pro tem Harbicht, seconded by Councilmember Kovacic and
CARRIED to APPOINT June Fee and John Wuo to fill the current vacancies on the
Centennial Celebration Commission.
AYES:
NOES:
ABSENT:
Councilmembers Harbicht, Kovacic, Marshall, Roncelli and Chandler
None
None
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Mayor Pro tem Harbicht stated, in part, that there would soon be two more vacancies on I
the Centennial Celebration Commission, due to the relocation of two other members.
The Commission members will make recommendations in appointing two new members
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ADJOURNMENT
(November 16,
1999)
ATTEST:
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and the Council also can recommend two candidates for these positions.
At 7:40 p.m. the City Council Regular Meeting ADJOURNED to November 16, 1999 at
6:00 p.m" in the Conference Room of the Council Chambers for a Regular Meeting to
conduct the business of the City Council and Redevelopment Agency and any Closed
Session necessary to discuss personnel, litigation matters or evaluation of properties,
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T RAN S ~ R' T P T
(Insofar as decipherable)
RELATING TO
JOINT STUDY SESSION ARCADIA CITY COUNCIL/REDEVELOPMENT AGENCY
NOVEMBER 2, 1999
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AGENDA ITEM NO. 3a. DISCUSSION AND DIRECTION CONCERNING
THE FOULGER FORD PROPERTY AND ADJACENT PROPERTIES
WITHIN THE REDEVELOPMENT PROJECT AREA
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JOINT STUDY SESSION ARCADIA CITY COUNCIUREDEVELOPMETN AGENCY
ITEM NO. 3a.
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AUDIENCE PARTICIPATION
Alex Wong:
Representing Trammell Crow Residential, a national multi-family developer, I am here because I am
interested in this discussion and also because I have written several offers to the owner of the Foulger
Ford property and are in some phase of negotiations this item. The input that I want to give to the
City Council and I have had a chance to meet directly only with the Mayor before, but I have spoken to
several others on the phone before, is that the kind of multi-family development that we would execute on
this site if we were controlling and if the City decided that they wanted residential at all, would be a high-
end about 28 to 25 units an acre of rental community.
Trammell Crow Residential does only one thing nationally and that is luxury multi-family rental. We have
the largest single apartment developer in the country and everywhere we build, we build the Ritz Carlton
of apartments. We have a project that will break ground in Pasadena in three months where rent will be
as high as $2,00 per month. It will be, far and away, the premier rental community in the City and they
changed their General Plan in order to make it happen, It's on Lake Avenue between the Ireeway and
COlorado at the Peppermill Ranch Farm site.
I wanted to make three brief points to the Council as to why I think our kind of project will be good here.
One is, I think it will be food for the downtown, The downtown has significant public investment recently
and its got a core of commercial businesses but it does not have a sort of twenty-four hour residential core
to support what is there. And this multi-family for the downtown will start to create a population of higher
income people who could be using that not only during lunch on a wort< day, but on night time and in I
evenings, and could get out of their residences and just walk down. One of the pictures in the brochure
that I passed around is the downtown project that we built in Portland, Oregon, that is right next to the
waterfront and there are tourists in the district. So number one, it could support some of the commercial
investments that are already there in our town. Secondly, it offers a residential product that is not offered
in the City today, you can pay half a million dollars or a million dOllars for a home here. You can rent a
condo/apartment here but you can not rent what it's called a Ritz Carlton apartment here. You can1 rent
$2,300 type of product here, that is what we will bring, the kind of population that serves is a very high
income population. Pasadena you would expect about $80,000 to be the average income of the residents
to be targeted and here would be similar. So we would add a housing option to what the City has
available. So secondly as an option, Finally, a project that we do, That would be good, sort of, for the
image of the City overall, What we would bring is, what our project would be, is status and prestige, In
the architecture and the kind of income we're attracting, and basically, just how it would relate to the
gateway to the downtown, And something like this would be really a defining signature project for the City
as it is in Pasadena. We have a gateway project in Pasadena, and without a doubt when we are done
that will be one of the defining pieces of architecture in the City, and we hope we can contribute the same
kind ofthing in Arcadia.
CounciVAgency Member Kovacic:
Mr, Wong I have questions one would your proposed project be mixed use or only residential and would it
just be on the Foulger Ford site or you are looking at something in addition to that?
Mr, Wong:
If we could assemble the whole triangle we hope to use a mixed use project. The details of this and
residential. If the directions that are sent in by the leadership are different and we end up controlling only
the Foulger piece, we would propose a residential only project there,
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Mr, Kovacic:
I When you say the entire triangle you mean all the way to Santa Anita,
Mr, Wong:
All the way to Santa Anita and Huntington.
Mr, Kovacic:
But if you are just dealing with the Foulger Ford site you still think your proposal would make sense at that
location?
Mr. Wong:
Yes, and because the Foulger site is 4 acres that is 80 to 100 units and that would be sort of a minimal
reasonable site for a Class A apartments.
Mr. Kovacic:
And what would the height be on something like that? How many floors?
Mr, Wong:
We are proposing two stories similar to the picture that's in the folder.
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Mr. Kovacic:
Thank you.
Mr, Roncelli:
Yes, I would like to ask, at the prices that are on the property now do you think it is feasible to do what you
are talking about?
Mr. Wong:
I do not want to jeopardize my own negotiations here but what I can say is that price has not been the
sticky point but its really been terms and the reason terms are difficult with us carrying over is who made
the initial _' Is that the ability to entitle that as a residential project has been unclear and if that is a
difficulty for the City then that is a risk that we have to put into the transaction. If, however, the City is
clear that that's a use that would be acceptable then the risk can be _able,
The other properties that are around there you must know about what they are worth these days, and that
makes sense also? Say... the Santa Anita property and Huntington Drive properties.
Mr. Wong:
I have not begun to approach some of the other property owners but the person sitting next to me here,
who is helping me with the_.
You mean there is a medical
in there?
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We're estimating between 10 to 12 million dollars for the whole triangle to be fired. That is primary
discussion, primary property estimates at the time.
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Would you take in some of those people who own properties now as partners? Or..
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Tenants?
Maybe _'
You guys don't like the uses that are sold. The only way that they would want to do any type of .., you
mean like a joint venture?
Right.
That would be Mr, Wong.
Mr, Wong:
We have joint ventured with land owners before and given the large number here, I would guess~.
There are a couple of very good size properties on _ like number nine.
Tony Henrich:
I just want to introduce myself, I am Tony Henrich and I just became the president of the Lower Rancho
Homeowners Association and Donna Butler told me that there is a study session tonight regarding the
FAR which is an interest to US to control what we believe is the harmony in our area. So, I hope in the
coming weeks, to meet with each one of the Council people and gel your viewpoints and we can share our
ideas. But I appreciate very much your consideration of a FAR native homeowners association
neighborhood. So thank you,
Mayo'r Chandler:
Mr, Henrich I think after we are done with the first part to be the Foulger Ford, that whole area of
discussion is gonna come up, I did not know if you are going to leave because you thought maybe it was
not on tonight or what.
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Mr, Henrich:
I was not sure ... I wasn't sure if you had to say what you are going to say now.
Mayor Chandler:
We're gonna do this whole downtown thing hopefully it will be quicker than last time. Bill, aren't we going
to address this? Don't you have a presentation? So you might as well stay, you just have to go through
this other stuff, Okay, anyone else.
Mr. Wong:
I just want to let the audience know that Trammell Crow has the ability to virtually any kind of
development. We do office, retail and residential: and economically. We look at investment community
and talk to them nationwide. Residential is very strong and very easy to finance today. Office and retail
would not be on this site and that is another reason why we are focusing our expertise on residential.
Mr. Roncelli:
Can you explain that, why that it is?
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Mr. Wong:
Because the speculative office market is little weaving, questionable right now, and in downtown L.A. it's
really profit _ in that kind of way _ and with retail there is a couple of other very large things going
on in the City here,
Mr, Roncelli:
So you are saying in a way, because of your expertise you know what's going on, that if we were to Stick
with maybe offices of _ we might have to wait linger than what we think.
Mr, Wong:
Yes,
Mayor Chandler.
Hopefully when we are done tonight, we will have a clearer picture of what the staff will deal with you on
... should do, so you don1 waste your time.
Okay, joint study session of the Arcadia Redevelopment Agency and the City Council No. a., Mr. Kelly,
City Manager Kelly:
Mayor and Council in the last meeting study session we tried to regroup our efforts, pose questions to the
Council in some organize fashion, which is before you, in some maps from the previous meeting and a list
of issues and land use for your consideration. Whit that, I will let Don make the presentation,
Don Penman:
We have one additional hand out also, we just received a fax from Hillcrest Development Partners who is
asking for an exclusive right to negotiate with the Agency for a retail center on about... I am just reading
for the first time right now, we had a conversation with these folks a couple of times in last week or two,
who would like the opportunity to try to develop about a seven acre retail project, so, it just came in the fax
at 5:01, I apologize, I didn1 five it to you sooner,
Mayor Chandler:
But it consolidates Rod's, Beacon's, Elks' and Charles'. That's what it's basically,
Mr. Penman:
Foulger Ford, Rod's, Beacon's, Elks' Chartes' and a portion 01 Morlan Place for about 7 acres, So we just
got this, which is just another possibility we will discuss as we go through the program tonight. As the City
Manager indicated this is a follow up from your last meeting, What we tried to do on an outline format
here, is to walk Council through the options you may have, an ultimate, maybe a combination of those, but
to try to provide some direction. The site presents a lot of possibilities commercial, and we're gonna kind
of separate, I mean commercial is broad, it could be commercial office or commercial retail, but we
separated them out in the map because they really are distinct, Commercial retail, commercial office and
an entertainment type which is another type of commercial residential or a mixed use project which is
something that's been discussed for some time. We've listed for you various categories of retail uses and
what we would like to do is to see if there is any of those that are not acceptable, It may be easier to work
that way. Certainly staff has some thoughts on some of that. We also have given to you, we understand
that you don1 have enough time to digest this but, in terms 01 our Economic Development, is this
information here which lists different retailers of different sizes, square footage use and what the general
annual sales taxes are. This is not to suggest that all 01 these would be interest in this site, we just want to
give you some idea, so when we talked about different type of retailers you can see what a typically
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generate, we'vewe listed what typically are called category Killers, which maybe real large boxes which
generally wouldn't probably fit on this site, I think the Council, we had a discussion regarding potential of a I
big box home improvement user which I think the Council did not feel is appropriate for this site but there
are smaller boxes within there own individual categories are fairly dynamic and the top two or three
retailers in your category, we are showing those there such as, Virgin Records, Nordstrom Rack,
Blockbuster, T J Max and things of that sort, Food Stores, some of you may now there was some interest
in past or may not or wasn't interest in the past --Lucky's, that project did not get too far, however we do
know there is some interest for specialty grocery and that would be more in the Bristol Farms, Gellson's,
Wild Oats type of use, that may be something to consider, discount is always a possibility, we don't
necessarily feel discount retail are what we are really looking for in this site, I am not sure if the Council
concurs with that but we didn't want to list that for you, Many centers could attract a drug store type of
use, sometimes they go in with a grocery store, there are certain types of home decor or improvement
stores, a small variety like Pier One or Pottery Bam, Again we are not suggesting all these would be
suitable or even interested in this site, we are not sure any of them are, well, we know that couple of them
are, we know there is some interest in specialty food stores in the area, but we want to list those book
stores, sporting good shops and we have REI nearby, we believe there is some strong interest in health
club area as Council are aware there is possible that the health club in town may close, in which case
there will not be a health club in the City of Arcadia and then there is a possibility of a minimal or strip
commercial which we don't thing is appropriate for this site, those kind of fit in some of the categories,
Restaurants, there are a lot of different types there is the coffee shop, family restaurant, dinner house and
fast food with or without drive-through, currentiy, we do not permit by AM 172, which is a resolution
adopted by the Agency drive-through restaurants or any drive-through businesses permitted in the area so
if the Council want to consider drive-through that would have to be modified, There has been some
discussion about hotels, we recently saw the opening of the Hilton and the Marriott is suppose to open
next Week, one of the issues there, we would want to look carefully at is if there us additional interest from
the hotel, what type of market is out there for hotels we probably would want to see a study by the PKF
which is one of the hotel consulting firms to determine is there still interest for additional hotel space in the
City of Arcadia and in what category, or will we just be moving it around from the hotels more over by I
Second and Fifth to this location or Art Garcia, the broker said that he has even had calls from a high end
hotel, I am not sure we never had those calls so we are not really aware of that interest. Then there is the
more low end, limited service type of facilities. Office, there would be more the typical office, right now
there is an H6 overlay, which allows up to 65 ft. the C-2 zone allows for up to 3 stories, it could be medical
professional and there is also some garden office type of varieties. It is interesting there is a lot of
literature about the demand for office and I agree the office market is fairly _ we 'just got an article
from the Business Life Magazine which is one of the business magazines distributed and it's a quote from
a guy name William Void, who is a senior vice president for Grubb & Alice, he says that the San Gabriel
office market is poised to accelerate its office space leasing glossy within it's next two quarters and the
anticipated reduction vacancy combined with projected increased rental rates, may signal the start of
additional new office space to be build, so if there is a lot of different thoughts about office, it is tough to
predict quite frankly where that market would go it seems that every other month we read another go, its
strong, its weak and this maybe a secondary market to the Pasadena area anyway, but it is something to
consider, we've always thought office was a good use if we can attract it just because it will create some
employment in downtown that would go to our restaurants, We listed some entertainment type of uses
here, frankly those would be tough to make work on this site, from the parking standpoint and probably
also because its more likely that we will see a multi screen complex goal for the race track or the mall for
that matter.
Then we get into the residential uses, you can see here we have listed what densities are permitted, single
family, medium density, multi-family and more likely we are probably talking about this in concepts we
have seen from people that we have met with multi family concept. which would allow 24 units to the acre
but could go to 30 lor senior, there is a density bonus provision in state law, for low and moderate income
which allows for %25 increase in density if you go I believe its %25 for units low & mod, so, it is a state
mandated program, and then when you get into multi-family you're obviously got a lot of product types, I
condominium, apartment, senior and then within the senior category you have the assisted
living/congregate care, retirement hotels so there is a lot of different product mixes that might be suitable
there, One of the issues, it may not be the case from what Mr, Wongs concept.., but one of the things
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that we looked at and heard from a lot of people is the density question. Again it may not be an issue from
the high end product, but most of the developers we talked to have indicated that the density would be an
issue for them on the product they were looking at, because typically 24 or maybe 30 units per acres are
not a real high density by most standards, what we did is, and we will circulate these, we had some
photographs taken of a couple of products in other communities, this Monrovia product which is a senior
housing project is a 51 units per acre, and that is not unusual, what did I say Monrovia pardon me
Claremont were unable to confirm what the Monrovia's density is but the Claremont product which we
thought was a fairly attractive one, three stories, is at 51 units per acre so we'll just distribute those, But
that is an issue that the Council need to deal with if you are going to consider some types of multi-family
product, where den'sity might have to be changed then we have to look at how do we do that in the context
of if you donl want that to apply to the rest of the City in R-3 zones, maybe we have mix use zone, we
have to explore that with the City Attomey as to how we can structure a zoning category that will
accomplish what you want to accomplish on this site. If you want to consider higher density but maybe not
have that apply to all R-3 zones in the City, that is something to think about. Other issues I think, the
design is important, as a Redevelopment Agency you have design review on any project, so that is
important and that would be maintained, We still have, and this is probably most true when it comes to
retail, the competitive factors that have to be considered relative to the Mall as well as potentially for
Santa Anita, we have an application from Westfield for six hundred thousand sq, ft. expansion in the mall,
we just met with them today, their wort< on the EIR, is progressing and we would think that should probably
come to hearing in about nine months or so. So that being the case we are not quite sure what the tenant
mix and whose going to be available, who might want to go to the mall, who might be available here, right
now I would say that the mall expansion would be a traditional expansion of the mall as opposed to a
project that would be more pedestrian and open air, and extending off over to the race track, that being
the case there still may be some users who would be interested here because the wouldnl fit into the
traditional mall project, with a theatre and some restaurants and some initial retailer. So, that is kind of a
summary of some of the issues that we have identified for you and we are open for questions.
Mayor Pro tem Harbicht:
This square footage is the square footage of the store?
Mr, Penman:
Yes,
Mr, Harbicht:
Is there a rule of thumb that we can use for figuring the size of this site needed, I mean with the part<ing
requirements,
Mr. Penman:
Probably a good coverage is %25. Maybe, it's really hard to say, often time, particularly in the bigger,
what we call the category. Often times their part<ing requirements are greater than what our code might
require, We're what; 5 to one space for thousand for typical retail, so it is probably around four to one,
maybe %25, four times that is a general rule, but again it varies a little bit sometimes, the tightness of site
can effect, how efficient the site can be laid out, that is probably not a bad rule of thumb.
Mr. Harbicht:
But I see something here which says approximate square footage 15,000 sq, ft' I can figure I am looking at
about a 60,000 sq. ft.
Mr. Penman:
What do you think Tom is that fair? Yes, probably four times,
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Mr. Harbicht:
Okay, I just wanted to have a general idea.
Mr, Kovacic:
I got a question. Don, this uses list here sort of covered every category? which of these are permitted
under the existing ARA 172 and which are not?
Mr, Penman:
Well, mini malls are not, and the fast food, it doesnl pro-elude it automatically, I mean we have
encourage certain uses with greater intensity so our first choice based on 172 which I need to remind you
was adopted by the Agency Board some time ago was for higher intensity use on Foulger Ford, you can
waive that like we did for self storage use over at the Second and Santa Clara site, You would have to
basically mix your findings for most of these uses but I would say probably the fast food, the mini mall,
those kind of concepts we would have most concem about and discount retail.
Mr, Kovacic:
Is residential pro-eluded or not?
. Pete Kinnahan:
No its not, the zoning would prohibit just off the top. so the _ speaks to basic commercial uses that
would normally be allowed.
Donna Butler:
Zoning does allow residential apartment type uses subject to CUP, but unfortunately the General Plan
doesnl, the GP is strictly commercial, so it is not a mixed use designation, so the General Plan would
prohibit it but the zoning through the conditional use permit process does allow apartments in commercial
zones with the CUP
Mr. Kovacic:
In the C-2 zone.
Ms, Butler.
Correct,
Mr, Kovacic:
Bu not the CBD.
Ms. Butler.
Well, actually even with the CBD, if you have a mixed use design there is a couple of areas that we do
allow, and it is permitted in the CBD zone on the second floor, I believe it is, and it's also permitted in CPO
zone along with commercial development.
Mr, Kovacic:
And ARA 172 contemplates at least three stories? Did somebody say that?
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Mr. Penman:
I Greater than three stories,
Mr. Kinnahan
There is language in there at the end of it which indicates that two sites in downtown are to be for intense
uses one of them is the current hotel site and the second is the Foulger site. Yes, the Foulger site is one of
those that is to have three to six stories, it is encouraged use for the property.
Mr. Kovacic:
Three to six on Foulger Ford and what on Santa Anita?
Mr. Kinnahan:
None.
Mr, Kovacic:
And that's not separate? Okay, and what was the hotel site?
Mr, Kinnahan:
The current hotel site that the Hilton and the Marriott are on.
I
Mr, Kovacic:
Okay, and when was 172 adopted?
Mr. Kinnahan:
January of 1993,
Mr, Harbicht:
Right now the Foulger site is zoned commercial, is consistent with everything else along there both sides
right? If I didnl care whether or not Foulger Ford site developed what are the arguments in favor of
allowing residential there?
Mr. Penman:
Well, there is probably a need in the high end apartment, category if that is what you are interested in, if
you are interested in senior, one of our requirements in the redevelopment program is to develop low and
moderate income housing and the Council in the past has determined that the senior housing we would
attempt to use senior housing to meet that goal, there arenl a lot of large sites available to do that so
assembling becomes a little bit of a problem we've been working to try to identify sits for senior housing its
not that easy in Arcadia so I think there is probably a couple of good arguments there, if it is a higher
density project, I suppose you could create some foot traffic for downtown,
Mr. Harbicht:
I
If. I mean senior or low income housing, this is a spot that we keep referring to as a kind of gateway to the
City how is that consistent with allowing senior or low income housing? I am not arguing against it.
8
Mr. Penman:
I know, and I am not suggesting it is the best site, you said give me argument for it. Well, we believe it is I
a gateway or the west you know mixed use project with some retail probably makes more sense, I think
there is probably some need and some demand out in the retail area but I am not sure it is 11 acres to be
quite truthful, I mean with the Mall project and the potential for Santa Anita 11 acres of retail is probably
not there.
Mr, Harbicht:
You are talking about whole, but what about Foulger?
Mr. Penman:
Well, it is hard to say we have a letter here and Pete had a conversation today with another developer
who saiCl they would like to try 4 to 5 acres of ,retail on the site.
Mr. Kinnahan:
And residential mixed use.
Mr, Penman:
Oh, mixed use as well. For the site as large as 11 acres mixed use probably makes some sense because
I am not sure there is enough demand for 11 acres of retail. Question, where does it fit into the site, That
is kind of a site planning issue is, do you have some retail and stacked behind it some residential or more
of a urban village, if you will type of setting, some side planning that could take place that could address
that and combine the two,
Mr. Harbicht:
I
One of the possibilities is rather than going all the way to Santa Anita is just going over a little bit and
taking ill Rod's and abandoning part of Morlan Place thee but leaving part of it in and making a col-de-sac,
If we where to do that, we abandon Morlan Place like right now half of it would go to the property owners
on each side,
Mr. Penman:
Probably.
Mr. Harbicht:
Okay, if we were to acquire those properties and then abandon it does it go without the property owner
being reimbursed for what would have been his had we abandoned it before we acquired it?
Mr, Penman:
That is an interesting question, one of our Councilmembers may be more qualified to answer that, my
understanding is that, that is a question that could come up in the terms of a the case because if the City
tried to acquire it and then abandon it later there could be a claim filed for compensation for that street.
Mr. Kovacic:
If they could make the argument that there was a reasonable probability that without the City's assistance I
there would have been an assemblage and a vacation of Morlan Place without City involvement they
could theoretically take that position in an eminent domain action to enhance the value of property.
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Mr, Harbicht:
I just want to understand what is the right thing to do and what our responsibilities would be?
Mr, Penman:
I think if we are gonna analyze we would probably, typically, analyze the worst case scenario and factor
that in even though it's a call that we have to meet later.
Mr, Harbicht:
If I recall we had to abandoned an alley over where the new hotels are and one small part of that went to
one of the properties that still privately owned, But the rest of it, the Redevelopment Agency owned all the
other property and had for a long time, had enough time gone by that is was...
Mr. Kinnahan:
We faces that argument on the northwest comer site when we vacated Wheeler Street with the action to
be Santa Fe Railroad and it was successful for the railroad,
Mr, Kovacic:
If I could add one other thing the key issue is what is the highest? If it goes eminent domain, the key issue
is what is the highest and best use of this property? You can not take inconsistent positions you can~ say
for instance il you are Rods the highest and best use issues of this property is to assemble it with other
properties vacate Mortan Place and bring something else bigger in there. And also say by the way, pay
me for the Rod's restaurant business, those are two inconsistent position so they would probably have to
fisher cut bait as far as what the highest and best use of the property is, but if they can prove that the
highest and best use of the property was assemblage with the other adjacent property owners and there
was a reasonable probability of a street vacation they could get some just compensation.
Mr. Harbicht:
That was just kind of a parenthetical thought there but I guess the main thought that I have is the
proposals that we've had there have, or the preliminary proposals we have had all been residential, I think
thaI's partly driven by the fact that the persons asking want to know what the property worth and they are
trying to make it pencil out but I guess the question is through our zoning we've already said what we want
there, and so the question before us is do we want to change that? Do we want to change that concept by
changing the zone or expanding the potential use.
Mr. Roncelli:
I really appreciate us discussing this properties and not being kind of set on maybe our old idea I don~
know if you've come to maybe a new understanding or a new kind of open your vision a little bit, I
appreciate if you have because I think it is necessary to. make a good decision. I don~ know if we've
talked about gateway to the west or gateway to the City, I don't understand that concept because it is in
the middle of the City so I don~ know which gateway either side you want to go, I think we do need some
senior housing, I think there are plenty of people in our City getting to that age they'd like to move into
smaller quarters, something nice, I think they want to stay in Arcadia, they like Arcadia, they've been here
for a long time. I especially appreciated Mr, Wong's ideas about a high-end place; I don~ like the idea of
having 40, 50 or 60 whatever number of places per acre like they have in some other cities around us,
Would they still meet some of the requirements of some of the housing needs we have to do because of
our redevelopment, would that _ let's say at least 20 to 25 residents on an acre, would that meet any
of the housing uses that we have to do?
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Mr. Penman:
Under his concept no, unless we worked out a program with them where the Agency can subsidize some I
units or we can do a density bonus and give a density bonus portion for low and moderate income..,
Mr. Roncelli:
Oh I see, you mean a portion of it being lower?
Mr, Penman:
Precisely,
Mayor Chandler:
Realistically how many senior spots are we gonna get toward our goal here I mean on this particular site,
Mr. Roncelli:
It looks like a hundred maybe,
Mr. Chandler:
I don't think so; we have to subsidize essentially the low-income portion this is a killer.
Mr, Roncelli:
We have to start someday though Roger.
Mr. Chandler:
I
We have no problem with that, we will do that, we are mandated to do that, we will but this particular one
here, I am just wondering if Don maybe help me. How many are we really standing to get here and do we
have to subsidize it?
Mr. Penman:
The answer is yes, and not too many. Well, under that product type if we stay at the density that our
current ordinance permits it will be a pretty expensive proposition to subsidize it. But the product type that
he is discussing, a great product type no arguing with that but for that product type there would need to be
quite a significant subsidy and then we could use it in small.
Mr, Roncelli:
The other thing I wanted to say is, we keep talking about retails, some can get some taxes and so on, you
know just like there isn't end to the retail. We put money into an area we say this is where we want our
downtown to be and in the next minute we're saying we would like to put retail over here too. Well, I don1
think that keeps working you know, let's build up the one we have here, I think the idea that what Mr.
Wong talked about, of having people there to take care of your retail makes a lot of sense, Let's make the
retail we have viable and I think it is an excellent location for that kind of thing, I mean that's where I'm
going right now.
Mr. Kovacic:
I
That is amazing how many things we could put there. It's incredible, isn1 it?
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Mr. Penman:
The only thing I would say about retail and I agree with what you are saying to bring in residential to serve
the retail, most of the retailers that we've been talking to, unfortunately wouldnl probably fit into some of
the existing retail sites that we have because of their requirements for the parking field and that sort of
thing, where they want the parking to be and how they want their sites to layout. So with a lot of the retail
that we currently have on Huntington Drive and First Avenue it's probably a real niche retail type of use as
oppose to the type of retailer we might be talking about here, but you are right there is a limit to retailing,
Who knows, three years from now the state may change the law and distribute sales tax based on per
capita, then we'll all be scratching our heard trying to figure out what to do now,
Mr, Hartlicht:
Plus number one on our wish list for that spot isnl retail it's office. That's been our vision all along if that
were to happen,
Mr, Roncelli:
Well, I am glad we are relooking at it though. You know, you said it's been right along but I donl know
how long right along is? But I think its good that were relooking at this because times have change, and
maybe that is not the right way to go now.
Mr. Hartlicht:
I
I am not having a problem about relooking at it, I think it is a good idea, I quite frankly am not sure what
would be best for the City here and I am interested in the comments in this discussion, I was just saying
that we are not necessarily focused on retail, office has been something that we might perceive,
Mr, Roncelli:
Well that's what I think is so refreshing about tonight's meeling.
Ms, Marshall:
You brought up some of the things I was thinking about how many retail areas can we keep booming?
The fact is that it seems as though one area is redone and it will start doing good and another one rains
off. Most cities really have sort of one focus of a downtown section and that is what they support, Our
City has a lot of areas for retail and they are spread out all over, and how many can the people really
support, even if you do shop Arcadia, so that is somewhat of a concern to me, Plus the fact, like you said
we donl know what is going to happen to the mall and Santa Anita, with the expansion and that going on
that's going to be a big boon on that.. I am not sure that maybe will do well. The concept of residential, I
donl have a problem with that the only problem I am worried about again is as I brought up before is, if
you have a high impact you have an impact on the school system which is vaulting at the seams that is
major thing that I always keep in the back of my head. If you go higher end more of a real senior people,
olCler people you wouldn't have to worry quite as much about the impact on the schools, I would thing,
Mr. Penman:
It is a tough issue and probably stepping a little bit out of my area of ,expertise but my understanding in
recent case that the cities have been really procluded from using the school argument for denial of
projects in most cases, in other words, if you want to consider a project or you want to deny a project one
of the findings you can not use are the schools.
I Ms, Marshall:
However, you have to keep that thought in the back of your head in making this decision because it could
12
have some bearing I am not saying that we deny somebody solely on that issue, however, I think it is
something to consider in making a decision on what we will accept.
I
Mr, Kelly;
Part of the analysis if the public is a big enough project is what is the impact, fiscal impact, they by law
have to pay fees to the school district, pay for impacts, That's part of the reason there's been court cases
saying City you can not use that as a basis for denial, impact on districts because they get money from the
state and/or the developer. It is an element to be discussed, They would have to accept the impact.
So they are getting compensated for it anyway,
All new buildings goes right to the school district _'
We're giving you money to take care of that.
Mr. Kelly:
The issue is this, is the impact on the schools and that would be addressed with the school district, But
they will have to accept the fact there is not a prohibition on new residential because of impacts.
Mr, Penman:
Schools get it, I think it is $1.60 per sq. ft. on new residential construction,
Mr, Roncelli:
Mr. Penman:
I
Just a one time fee?
Yes, it's for facilities, and they're basically creatures of the state in terms of their funding, They get so
much per pupil. One of things I think and again I apologize we werenl able to give you this earlier, it was
beyond our control, But it is ratter exciting that it seems to be it may ultimately be that a mixed use
project makes the most sense on the overall site which may include maintaining several uses that are
already there but there are some I think probably a few would disagree with it maybe or under utilize in
terms of how the site is being use today, but, the fact that there maybe be some kind of especially type of
retail that could work very well with a residential product, with a health club and a specially grocery store
and a residential use, I mean, those are uses I think really support each other very well, and if the project
can be put together in phase that maybe we are able to generate one of the things I just read about that
seems to be kind of a trend in terms of office market rather than these big tall office buildings that are kind
of sterile more of a low, lower profile garden office where people work a lot of hours, there is a health club
there, there is restaurants nearby, there is other facilities so it maybe that a true mixed use kind of project
makes the most sense there where we do all of these things with some really good site planning,
Mr. Roncelli:
I just spent, like a few days in Mill Valley up north where my son lives and I've never lived in a little
downtown like that. It had a hotel right downtown, and its really exciting to be in a high end hotel where
you have really nice restaurants right there in the partisan, its exciting. And there is a park right across the
street from this. It's lovely to cruise around in the park after dark,
Mr. Kovacic:
I
Let me try to put this in some sort of context, first reviewing what the facts are and second what staff is
really asking us to do. The facts are that we have an area where one of the property owners is trying to
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sell the property, Foulger Ford, there are some questions about whether he is asking too much, I don~
think anybody will claim he is asking to li\lle, then we have a bunch of other owners in the area that as far
as I know haven~ expressed an opinion one way or the other about whether they want a stay or go and we
have some existing zoning and some Redevelopment Agency restrictions that restrict the use of the
property, We've got one person who says that they think they can develop the Foulger Ford site with high-
end apartments but they are a little concemed about what the City Council's position is, if I understand it
we would have to grant CUP for that kind of use is that correct? So, they are not sure they want to go
blindly and leave it up to our decision. We received a letter from somebody who says I'd liked to develop
the entire triangle with a mixed use project, I don~ think it involves, does it involve any residential?
Mr, Penman:
You mean this letter? This is actually seven (7) acres,
Mr, Kovacic:
Okay, seven (7) acres. A part of the residential, we have heard or at least I've heard and some of you
have heard about a group that is interest in doing some assisted living/congregate care or senior
retirement on the Foulger Ford site which mayor may not satisfy some of our requirements for low and
moderate housing, We've got the broker of the Foulger Ford site claming that we are too restrictive and
he would like us to pennit the deluxe apartment building and maybe even single story retail developers
and maybe even there is a fancy hotel out there that would like to move here, so all this is going on, we as
a Council have to decide; one, do we just let things go the way they are and let these people sort out
what's going on and come to us when and if they have a proposal, that's one possibility. Two, should we
fine tune either the zoning, the General Plan, the Redevelopment Agency restrictions or something, to
either make it tighter or looser or whatever as far as permitting uses, Three, I think what staff is saying is
maybe we ought to hire somebody to do a study to see what is the best use of this property. And four, and
these may not all be mutually exclusive but, four would be why don~ we just send out a request for
proposals to the world have them send us back what their proposals are and then we can decide on that.
And I guess that would be good for us, the problem is that a lot of people out there don't really want to go
to the effort of proposing something unless they get an idea what this Council is willing to do, It maybe
that this Council doesn't want high-end residential, so maybe somebody doesn~ even want to take the
time to fill out a proposal, maybe (end of tape 1)
I think people are out there looking for us for some kind of guidance and we can either say, hey, you know
what the rules are, that's it or tell us what you have in mind, or this is what we have in mind, why don't you
bring us something that complies with that.
Mr. Chandler:
Okay, I think we're getting the funnel approach maybe Bob can,.,
Mr. Harbicht:
I think the rules right now are very clear, the property zoned and what is allowed in that zone is what's
allow, the question before us is really two questions we need to answer, Are we Willing to consider
proposals for residential only, are we willing to consider proposals for some sort of mixed use which
includes residential or are we not willing to consider proposals that include residential, which is what the
situation is now, we are not willing to consider them by our zoning. Those are the questions,
Mr. Chandler:
We need to have some druthers here, and we actually have a couple of different pieces of property here
and may be we should focus in on Foulger and then we will skip the other. Perhaps fonn this point we can
really focus on these properties, I am ready 10 make some comments about my druthers and maybe it is
time that we come forward and say what our druthers are, put it out on the table and then we will take a
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straw pole or whatever and maybe we'll come up with something, But we'll get back to what Bob said after
comments, Gino.
I
Mr. Roncelli:
Oh, I was just saying I'll go along with what you're saying, let's, I'll give you my druthers then, right now, I
think we stick with that piece of property only that's what we discuss only tonight. That's my feeling and
that we open it up to all proposals, We let the market come to us and say, this is what we think is great
and then we look at those and then we decide if those are appropriate or not, if we want to change we will
change.
Mr, Chandler:
Okay, so we leave everything in fact as it is the zoning, we let the free market take hand with that Foulger
site, In a minute I'd like to come back and maybe add what you have to say on what I have to say..,Gail
do you have a comment of druthers?
Ms, Marshall:
I personally thing we need to open it up to being able to look at mixed use or all residential see which is
going to pan out better. Do we have to make either one or the other or can we make it both, I was
thinking retail, but I wasn1 quite able, it was good what you said about the restaurants and the grocery
stores and stuff, I wasn't thinking along that line for some reason and that put a different light on being in
there with some residential. I can see that working,
Mr,
It's already zoned for retail that's not a question.
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Ms, Marshall:
I know that's not the question, The question is do we want to open it up to residential also which I believe
we should,
Mr, Chandler:
Okay, I haven1 had anything to say here and as far as the Foulger Ford property itself, I am not interested
at all in any kind 01 residential just for that property, in other words a stand alone project of residential, I
don1 think will make sense, I don't think it is good judgement for the City. If somebody like Trammel Crow
wants to .come in and expand the scope of that and include the absolute mixed use throwing some high-
end residential in with a quite an energetic project, we are talking serious movement through that whole
area and probably use of redevelopment condemnation, 1 am willing to do that, I am not willing to change
all of the General Plan or any of that out front but I'd make it known that if you have big ideas and you
want to involve high-end residential, I would be welcome to that and also be open to use condemnation
but it has to be a big idea and just forget it if you just want to rip off Foulger Ford for residential, I think
that's wrong okay, And for that end and later on we'll have another discussion about Santa Anita Inn,
Anyhow, that's how I feel about that particular section and I don't know how that dovetails into what you
said Gino, if it's just Foulger Ford alone do you want to go ahead and open up retail or you want to hold
back?
Mr. Roncelli:
I would want to look at any proposal because you know there are some things that we may not know about I
right now that will be great for that area, so if we open it for anything then we have an opportunity to see
that now if it doesn't show up then that's the way it is gut we have to go with what we've got.
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Mr, Chandler:
Okay, you and I both indicated that we will leave the General Plan as is and we'll just basically state our
philosophy and let free market.
Mr. Roncelli:
We are saying we're open for ideas.
Mr, Chandler.
Absolutely.
Mr. Harbicht:
Hey, you guys are saying exactly the opposite.
Mr, Chandler:
Well a little bit. No strictly,
Mr. Penman:
Retail?
Mr. Chandler:
No,
Mr. Penman:
Are you saying you would consider residential.
,
Mr, Roncelli:
I said I would consider anything,
Mr. Penman:
Right..
Mr, Chandler:
Well, I said I would not consider residential strictly on the Foulger Ford owned piece of property, just
stand-alone Gary.
Mr. Kovacic:
Well, I am not at this point willing to categorically say no based on an hour and a half of study sessions.
As I understand it, nothing is stopping Trammell Crow right now from making their deal and making it
contingent on getting City approval and then asking City for approval. And if they want to do thaI J am
going to listen 10 that proposal with an open mind, my preference would be in mixed used development
that included more than a Foulger Ford site but I am not gonna sit here today and say Trammell Crow, you
better do something bigger because I am going to say no, I don't think that is fair, The mechanism is here
for you to go through Ihe process and get the entitlements that you need 10 do what you wanllo do just on
the Foulger Ford site; and at least I am going to listen to that with an open mind, My preference is a larger
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scale, what Roger suggested, mixed use proposal that could include residential and my preference would
be to tell the development world we are interested in something like that, send us some proposals for I
either the entire triangle or a substantial portion of the triangle which will be the 7 acre thing or whatever.
And yes under the right circumstances we may use our powers of eminent domain, we may use our
powers as a Redevelopment Agency to assist financially if it makes sense, That's where I am.
Mr, Harbicht:
If the site next to REI on Santa Anita would you be willing to look at a residential proposal for that?
Mr. Kovacic:
No,
Mr, Harbicht:
What's so different about this?
Mr. Kovacic;
Well, it is bigger and it is adjacent to residences and I think depending on what the product is, I see it as
more of a potential residential area than the site next to REI.
Mr, Harbicht:
Do you see it as a kind of spot zoning?
Mr. Kovacic:
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I don't see it as spot zoning, I see it as not being the best use here but I am not willing to say that under no
circumstances is it a good use, I can't make that statement tonight.
Mr. Harbicht:
Do you feel pressured because people keep aSking what's going on with Foulger Fore!.
Mr. Kovacic:
Not at all, it is funny that people want govemment out of their life but they want us to take care of Foulger
Ford a private piece of property. I just contribute that to people not knowing what the rules are,
Mr. Chandler:
Well Bob other than quizzing Gary, what's your druthers?
Mr. Harbicht:
I haven't heard one good argument why we should want residential there, it's a commercial zone, just like
everything on both sides of it up and down the highway, I don't understand why we would want a
residential there, and I haven't heard any argument as to why that would be good,
Mr, Chandler:
I saw maybe it was good in a big huge picture, a big project, but as a small project to just go in there, I I
agree vvith you, I don't see a reason for it, we have very little if nothing to gain and in this housing
requirement we're going to get zip out of that. It has nothing to do with that it shouldn't be our concem,
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Mr. Harbichl:
We're not going to put low income housing in a high income development.
Unknown Speaker:
I agree with you there, other than a massive project that tried to blend those uses you know I would
consider that.
Mr. Roncelli:
You know, we went out of our way recently to change zoning on that piece of property didnl we? what's
the problem here then? I mean why can't we be open? We are not asking to change the statement.
Mr. Chandler:
Well, that was still within our General Plan it was still commercial.
Mr, Harbichl:
It didnl change the zoning.
Mr. Chandler:
We didnl change zoning we just made the overlay.
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Mr. Kovacic:
I think we are all in agreement that we don't change the existing rule, I think somebody in Trammell
Crow's position is counting heads and you basically says I sense I got two pretty definite noes and I got
maybe a strong maybe and I donl know where the other two people are coming from but you know they
just make their business decision, I have already stated that giving competing proposals I am gonna go for
the mixed use on a larger piece of property.
But if there isnl that?
Mr. Kovacic:
Then I will just go with what they have to say and we've got the power... I mean they are asking for some
significant changes they want to change the General Plan and so, I got a feeling that there are people out
there that are interested in doing more than just residential on Foulger Ford,
Mr. Roncelli:
I guess I wasnl part of making the General Plan to begin with and I don't know what you ..
Mr. Harbichl:
It's an ongoing process.
Mr. Roncelli:
I Okay, if it is then we are part of that process aren't we? We can't change that.
Mr. Kovacic:
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I am not sure we've changed the General Plan designation on that area in the recent past.
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Ms. Butler:
Not in that specific area, The most recent General Plan change was on the Second Avenue site.
Mr. Kovacic:
And there was one on Santa Anita.
Ms. Butler:
Right.
Mr. Roncelli:
But there are changes going on. I mean it is not locked in cement, we can change things if we want to, I
take it.
Mr. Harbicht:
Sure you can change whatever you want. We can propose to put an In N Out Burger next to your house if
we anted to. I think that a City has an obligation from a good planning stand pOint through its zoning to
Indicate to property owners, potential property owner what you can and can not do with your property and
to just say well, bring us anything and then we will tell you later whether or not you can do it, I don't think
that we are meeting our obligation, so I think that we need to give a clear signal whether we go ahead and
change the zone but we would at least have to say that the majority of this Council is willing to accept a I
proposal which includes residential or we're not, because I don't think it is lair to ask a developer to say
well, the sky is the limit here and somebody comes in with a 30 story building proposal, and somebody
else comes in with a proposal to put a hog farm there I mean our zoning says what we're willing to accept
there and I think it is our obligation to tell not only the potential, buyer but the current owner plus the
owners of the other properties around there, these are the kind of things you can expect to go in here
because if the guy at Rod's, whoever who owns that piece of property decides that he wants to sell his
property what is allowed across the street has some impact on that and he has a right to know what's allow
across the street, so we can't do this thing in a vacuum and say that we are looking at this one piece of
property that has too high price on it and we'd like to see something happen to it, I think we have an
obligation from the planning stand point to say what we want and what we don't want and we normally do
that through zoning that's the way we do it, every piece of property in this City is zoned.
Mr, Roncelli:
So, let's change the zoning to what we want.
But we don't know what we want.
Mr. Harbicht:
That's what I am saying we need to determine what we want..
Mr. Roncelli:
So we are not stuck with what we have now.
Mr. Harbicht:
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No, I am just saying that we can't say we're not going to tell you what we want, you bring in any proposals
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you want to,
. Mr. Roncelli:
What you are saying is this is what we want, and that's what we want, and we are going to wait until that
happens, That's what we're saying now, You know we have been sitting here looking at this piece of
property on that kind of zoning for a long time if you want that to continue then I guess we just sit here and
let it happen. You're not in a hurry to do anything to it.
Mr, Harbicht:
That's right, we sat here and looked at the Western Bank property -- or even longer.
Mr. Roncelli:
So what's this discussion about here, So just let it sit.
Mr. Harbicht:
Discussion is not about winning your way,
Mr, Roncelli:
I don1 care about winning my way, I'm just saying what do you want to accomplish here? Do you want to
let it sit or not?
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Mr, Chandler:
Well, believe it or not we will accomplish something I think.
Mr, Harbicht:
I think the question is will the majority of the Council is willing to except and look favorably upon a
proposal which includes things that are not currently allowed i.e. a retail development, that is the question.
Mr, Chandler:
Okay, weill tried to define that in two ways; one the Foulger Ford site alone and two, the big area.
Mr. Kovacic:
First of alii am not aware of any proposals other than residential for Foulger Ford site correct?
Mr, Penman:
. Other than that concept letter we handed to you,
Mr, Kovacic:
But that's more than Foulger Ford site.
Mr, Penman:
I Correct,
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Mr. Kovacic:
I think Bob makes some good points, my point was there is nothing stopping Trammell Crow under the I
eXisting rules from applying for a change in the General Plan, and I am silting here can not say that I will
categorically deny that, I would have to listen to the proposal, we've got some people talking about, it
. might be this. it might be that, I am not going to cast my vote in concrete as I sit here today about what the
proposal is. My preference again is a larger mixed use development and I think that we ought to at this
point in time do whatever we have to do to ask for proposals from developers to submit such plans,
Ms, Marshall:
I like that comment. I agree,
Mr, Kovacic:
I am not sure we need, I don't think we need the consultant right now I think we wait until we get the
proposals in and then they say hey, here's five proposals or we want you to give us a zillion dollars to help
US along, somebody else wants us to vacate the street then at that point we decide whether we've got
enough information to go forward or not. It nobody responses then I guess we decide something else.
Mr, Chandler.
We got three people here that like that idea, But what is your feeling on that one? It's essentially let it
continue,
Mr. Harbicht:
Let what continue?
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Mr. Chandler.
Well the free market, let's the proposals come in, if Trammell Crow comes down with something specific
that involves significantly more portion of the property then they can ask for the zone changes.
Unknown Speaker.
They don't plan to change _'
Is there any thing to keep Trammell Crow from doing that now with the discussion we have? That's the
question or anybody?
Mr, Harbicht:
The only thing to keep them from doing it is why would anybody in their right mind come in with a proposal
that is not even allowed in the zone, and take a crap shot on whether or not the Council is going to
approve it.
Mr, Roncelli:
I guess that's what I am getting at, why donl we? Why won't we?
Ms, Marshall:
Because we havenl seen the plan. We don't know what kind of plan it is.
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Mr, Chandler:
Well, Gary just opened the door for that, I am the only guy here, maybe Bob said it too, I just would not
accept residential on the Foulger Ford property as it stands alone.
Mr, Kovacic:
I donl think that we are that far apart, What Bob and Roger would like the Council to say is Trammell
Crow thanks for the good effort but go away unless you've got something different, I am not willing to say
that at this point, if they want to take the risk of putting something together to try to get three votes that is
fine with me, but I think that what we should do as a Council is we should set in motion the procedure to
get proposals from people involving more than the Foulger Ford site, I think that's a policy decision that
this Council can make tonight which is are you willing to consider using our powers of either eminent
domain or redevelopment assistance to put together a larger project and I am willing to do that.
Mr. Harbicht:
I guess, I would say that the only way I'd be willing to look at residential is if it is part of a mixed use
project I don't see any other reason why we would want to put residential right in the middle of commercial
zone, but I can see it as part of a mixed use project.
Ms. Marshall:
That's where I was coming from basically in thinking about a mixed use,
Mr. Kovacic:
In the RFP would state that on a larger property we would look at residential.
Mr. Kelly:
The only thing we would want you to clarify from this list is what you don't want to see there, you still have
the menu, and you have uses you donl want it would be easier to focus on developers.
Mr. Harbicht:
I donl want to see 80 to _ units per acre,
Mr. Penman:
That's a question, do we want to, should we leave it open, if we gonna ask for proposals on a mixed use
kind of concept we want to ask them to tell us what density they would propose or tell them that it must be
within the existing density in the General Plan,
Mr, Kovacic:
My preference is high-end, Again, I don't know enough at this point but my gut feeling is I really donl want
a category killer, I wouldn't mind a small food store but I am not sure I want a large food store, obviously I
donl want a strip commercial or mini mall. Health club that makes some sense, book store makes a lot of
sense, any restaurants other than fast food makes sense, I think there's a lot of _ I'm not sure, I donl
want to tie anyone's hands bit I guess I really not looking at is a large category killer or a discount store.
Mr. Harbicht:
Well, I don't think a large anything would fit, I agree with you on everything except what it says here small
to mid size category killer, I would be willing to look at that.
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Mr. Penman:
There may be some like Virgin Records, I'm not thinking, I am not sure if they are interested but it might
be appropriate but maybe a Petco is not what we are really looking for in our downtown.
Mr, Harbicht:
Maybe not a Petco but maybe a Trader Joe's or Whole Foods or something like that. I mean a large thing
is not going to frt there; it is just too small for that so I think we are in agreement.
Mr, KOvacic:
I would much prefer to see something that, at least what I envision is being high-end,
Mr. Chandler.
I have no problem with his shopping list, Gail do you have a problem with shopping in a high end garages
for retail?
Ms. Marshall:
No except for I thin I would exclude, I would not want to look at entertainment there. If we are having a
mixed use I don't think that's....
Mr, KOvacic:
We are not necessarily having a mixed use.
Ms. Marshall:
I mean if we did, I said if we're looking at possibly doing a mixed use. If we did any housing I would not
want entertainment.
Mr. Chandler.
What kind of entertainment?
Ms, Marshall:
Well, they've got stuff listed here. What is going on just across the road from them, I don't why anyone
would do that anyway,
Mr. Penman:
It would be tough to make it work with the parking requirements and co-tenancy issues, where other
tenants would not want to be with theaters, so it is probably not on a site that small it wouldn't work.
Ms, Marshall:
Other than that I agree with the ones Gary mentioned.
Mr. Chandler.
Bill Kelly said that we need to define residential. To what extend? What do you want?
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Mr, Kelly:
If you are talking senior housing, you are talking more than twenty units to the acre that is the nature of the
business, that's just gonna happen, twenty of the acre won't make there,
Mr. Roncelli:
I recognize that and I think senior housing might be part of the mixed use it might make sense,
Mr. Kelly:
If you are talking up end apartment condominium and then some senior housing at some other density
than 20 we can focus in those areas,
Mr. Roncelli:
If you are talking mixed use, and I want my wish list here, I think again the food store idea, the book store,
health club maybe even some small high-end hotel, maybe some garden office, or multi-family, twenty-
four to thirty that's my idea.
Mr, Chandler:
Is that enough for you guys, so currently as it stands we are not changing any of our General Plan or our
zoning but we're given those feelings, I guess, made those feelings public, however clear they are, Hope
you taped it we';; not be able to unravel it ,
Mr. Kelly:
Just for the record too, so you know when we put this together, there is what's called an owner
participation process it's prescribing redevelopment law so we would also need to give all the property
owners in the area the opportunity to submit a proposal to show how they would want to develop this site,
so they will be included in this process and given an opportunity as well.
Mr, Roncelli:
How long would this process take?
Mr, Penman:
It would take a few months,
Mr. Chandler:
I've been told that HOA discussion probably can be done in thirty-five minutes, so we have a little more
time. I am not gonna apologize for not being real clear here, but it's real tough to do, all of you people that
are here today for some quick decision. Okay, the Santa Anita Inn project, we need to move along now, I
am gonna lead off right here for Santa Anita Inn project, first of all I didn1 even know the project was on
the market until just recently, I don1 ..,
Mr, Kelly:
I am not sure if that's true anymore.
We are not even so sure that its currently on the market.
Mr. Penman:
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Well, it's a little confusing, I tried to get some information.., my information is the owners wish to sell it I
there are 54 years left on the lease however, now whether or not the tenants wish to sell it, and they are
here this evening. I had the opportunity fortunately today to meet them, They read the articles In the
paper and came over and asked me what's going on? So we had a meeting _' So I believe the
owners are interested in selling it but the tenants I don't know what their interests are, then we talked about
why this came up and the proposals that were submitted to the City, My understanding is there are fifty
three years left on the lease,
Mr. Roncelli:
Why are we talking about Santa Anita Inn, they are not redevelopment,
Mr, Chandler:
Yes, they are in this redevelopment area; they came up last time and we didn1-.
Mr, Kelly:
There's been a proposal suggested for congregate care or senior housing on this property, because the
word went out that the property was for sale and that the lease was for sale, So as of today we found that
the lease may not be for sale,
Do we have a location for that? Near the hospital?
Mr, Penman:
I
We're just not sure.
Mr. Kelly:
I think the issue of any kind..,
. Does Bluth own that?
No he doesn't
Is he out of it?
Mr. Chandler:
Well, is there any presentation on'that?
Mr, Kelly:
No, just the questions.
Mr, Chandler:
What is the question.
Well, it makes like zoned commercial right? What it make now? $80,000 a year for the City? $70,000?
Mr, Penman:
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Well, we can1 say 50 for the record exact amount it's in excess of 60,000 in TOT, And I should add, it's
been growing since the new management, they have increased the occupancy, increase the revenue for
the City, so it is growing revenue source,
Mr. Chandler:
I know we had a proposal for a senior care unit or whatever.
Mr. Kovacic:
Is that permitted?
Ms, Butler:
No, congregate assisted housing the way our codes reads it's R-2, R-3 and C-O zoning.
Mr. Penman:
And this is zoned?
Mr. Butler:
This is zoned C-2,
Mr, Kovacic:
So we have the same restrictions as we do on Foulger Ford, for this piece of property.
Mr. Harbicht
I think the most desirable use for this piece of property is exactly what it is right now a hotel, If they can
make a go of it... Strong is talking about building a hotel across the street if he can make a go of it they
should be able to,
Mr. Chandler:
Well, I would agree, I think a hotel is good for property but without seeing what happens I mean if it's for
sale give it some time, maybe some hotel conglomerate or whoever wants to come in and try to buy up
the lease or property or whatever I don't know bul.., I am just not willing to jump at something, just
because it is available, I would rather let the free enterprise market take it's place and see if there are
some hotel people interested in buying the property for a hotel, I'm just not willing to jump up and do
something to make something happen here,
Mr. Harbicht:
Well, I am correct that there is a property owner and then there is a hotel operator and they are two
separate entities.
Mr, Penman:
Correct, there is a lease on it which are separate.
Mr. Harbicht:
So, whoever owns it doesn1 matter there's still on operator who has a lease and can continue to operate it
as a hotel.
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Mr. Penman:
Unless the lease is bought out,
Mr. Harbicht:
Unless the lease is bought out .
So, someone has some dealing to do.
Mr. Kovacic:
Let me ask a question, what would the difference be between a hotel and some form of senior housing?
What does the hotel give us as a City, obviously TOT, that senior housing doesnl give us at that location?
Mr, Penman:
WI is dCles, it might meet requirement for our set aside need,
Mr. Kovacic:
Is it possible that it will increase the assessed valuation so that our tax increment will be higher than it is
now?
Mr. Penman:
I don't know what the base is on thaI. Do you know Pete?
Mr, Kinnahan:
Very small.
Mr. Penman:
It depends on what they want to do on the site. It probably would increase the assessed value would be
our guess.
Mr. Kovacic:
So it is possible that senior housing could generate some income that there'd be an argument who's
gelling the income and all that, but generates some in come that we are not getting now,
Mr, Penman:
Assuming that it is not a tax exempt entity that operates it, I donl now who the entity is, I mean I know
under what mechanism it would be, whether it would be a tax exempt organization or for profit, I mean
Marriott for example has a product out there that is assisted living. I donl believe it is tax exempt, but I
am not sure of the tax structure of il.
Ms, Butler:
Unfortunately with assisted living and congregate care doesn't meet our housing goals because it is really
a business rather than a housing need, Senior apartments meet our housing goals.
Mr, Penman:
But Steve Deitsch did tell us one thing he is our redevelopment attorney, he did tell us if we entered into
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an agreement with the operators for a certain number of units could be restrictive but a covenant for low
and mod then that would meet some of our requirements in the housing category so it could be structured
to meet that requirement depending on the developer and negotiations so it is possible to do that.
Mr. Chandler:
Is anybbdy here in a hurry to do something with this property at this time, my feeling is that we gotta sit
and wait and see what comes out here that the City really doesnl need to jump.
I second that.
Mr. Chandler:
Okay, anybody feel, okay then I think this issue should be clear for at least six months or so that we're in a
wait and see position on that property.
Mr. Kovacic:
But I'm not adamantly against senior housing and the mechanisms are there for somebody to pursue that
option.
Mr. Chandler:
All right, could we move on...
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