HomeMy WebLinkAboutJune 24, 1992~ :~
A(i8 NDA
ARCADIA CITY COIINCIL MEBTIN(;
JONS 24~ 199Z
5:30 P.M.
ACTION
ROLL CALL: City Council/Agency Members Ciraulo,
Harbicht, Lojeski, Margett and Fasching
i. Library addition/alteration concept plan
2. Discussion oP Business Districts
3. Discussion oP Redevelopment items
4. Appointments to Boards and Commissions
5. Finalization of Argument In Favor Of
Measure A- City Charter Revisions -
September 15 election.
6. MATTERS FROM BTAFF
7. MATTERS FROM ELECTED OFFICIALS
8. ADJOURN to 6:30 p.m., July 7, 1992, for a soundwall
study session
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E D I T E D
TRANS C R I P T
(Insofar as decipherable)
RELATING TO
ARCADIA CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION
JUNE 24, 1992
Ai a
, 14. 1
, 2)5 /1
-p.
CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
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CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
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to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
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ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
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MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
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FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
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HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
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E D I T E D
TRANS C R I P T
(Insofar as decipherable)
RELATING TO
ARCADIA CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION
JUNE 24, 1992
Ai a
, 14. 1
, 2)5 /1
-p.
CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
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CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
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to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
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ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
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MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
3
r
perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
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FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
to it, however, another one which is potentially unknown as far as its
impact. They just simply say that they might want to require that
agencies would receive in tax increment only what they've legally
contracted for. In our case, we have bonded indebtedness, that's $330,000
a year. Well, the rest of it is often pay as you go. We pay as we go.
They would sort of take that away. They would simply give us in tax
increment $330,000 because that's contractually established.
•
50
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1
FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
4
LOJESKI Hasn't Kent looked at this. . . .
FASCHING You're bringing up a lot of other questions. You say you want to be
guaranteed the extra square feet will be good for another 25 years, and
all those things.
LOJESKI I didn't use the word guarantee. I want to be assured that what we're
talking is going to be usable for the next period of time.
ROSS It's 10 years that I said would be the absolute guarantee that would. . .the
capacity would be guaranteed for that time. Beyond that it's difficult
to tell, the changes that could occur. Certainly, when we do this it would
be a 25-year building. But it could be at capacity in 10 years.
CIRAULO And what might extend that, too, is. . .I understand it's just preliminary
at this point, but I understand the School District is having some
preliminary discussions about some way to access the Library by way of
computer and keep most of the students at the school.
ROSS They already do. They do access the Library by computer, but actually what
that does is tell them what we have so they know that we have it before
they come over. And that's primarily the way it's used now. They
originally wanted a retrieval system, and then they couldn't afford the
people to come and retrieve the items at the time because of their budget.
But they still have access to our collection by computer.
CIRAULO They have that now?
ROSS They have that now.
HARBICHT Well, some comments that I have on this is, one, the question of where the
money is going to come from. I think this is why we have to prioritize
our capital improvements. We have the Capital Improvements Budget, we have
money in it, we have receipts going into it from the Track and the other
monies that we're putting into that. So if we decide that we're going to
build this Library, or build this addition to the Library, the money is
available in the Capital Improvements Fund. That's what the Capital
Improvements Fund is for. And if that takes up most of the money there,
then any other capital improvements that we want, such as an auditorium,
whatever, are just going to have to be put off two or three years until
we build it up to the point where we can do it. That's the way we've
always done it in this City. And I guess I'll express the opinion that,
in my mind, this is the number one priority. And so I would be in favor
of using the Capital Improvements Funds for doing the Library. I guess
the question of how long the Library is going. . .how long this would
last. . .Kent, I'm going to argue with you a little bit on this. I don't
know why it would only last for 10 years. I don't think we foresee any
significant population growth here in Arcadia. As a matter of fact, the
consultants' report that we had visualized almost no growth.
ROSS Well, I didn't say it wouldn't last more than 10 years; I said I couldn't
guarantee it. I could absolutely guarantee that it would certainly have
sufficient space for growth up to 10 years. After that, there are a lot
of things we don't know, as I explained, I think, the last time. . .particul-
ar, say, reference volumes that were only two volumes at one time are now
10, 15, and they've grown by 10 times. But we're still required to have
those. So the same thing, to serve the community in this much space 10
years ago now takes several shelves.
HARBICHT I understand that. I guess I'm thinking in terms of, you know, one of the
things that would have the greatest influence on the size of the Library
needed is the number of people using it. I think the number of people
using it is pretty closely tied to population growth. And so I don't
visualize a huge increase in the number of people using it. In regard to
the reference volumes, that's true and I know that the amount of
information in the world is constantly expanding and we seem to be putting
more of it on our shelves. But it could be, and I think it's very likely,
that 10 or 15 years from now an awful lot of that is going to be on laser
disk and you're not even going to have those volumes. . .you're just going
to pop a laser disk in and read what you want, and print out the part you
7
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want. Which means that actually there would be a shrinking demand for
space there. But I guess in my mind. . .Dennis asked the question, how long
would this be good for. I'm fairly convinced that this kind of an
expansion is going to be good for more than 10 years, and I don't think
20 years. . .my guess, and I'm not a library expert, but my guess just based
on what I see in trends is I think we're pretty safe in saying that if we
were to do this it's going to serve the needs of Arcadia for 20 years.
CIRAULO Well, that's a good question to ask. How much extra space do we need to
last us for 25 years?
HARBICHT Because if it was only going to be 10 years, I'd be pretty reluctant to
do this. If I thought 10 years from now we were going to have to tear
everything down and build a new Library, I might say maybe we ought to just
struggle along with what we've got for three more and save up the money
and then build a brand new Library. So, that's my feeling.
FASCHING I feel that it's going to last us for 20, 25 years. The one we have was '
conceivably out of space 20 years ago, and we've been using that for 20
years since then.
•
[End of Tape 1 - Side 1, beginning of Tape 1 - side 2]
HARBICHT . . .in terms of making a decision as to whether or not we should do this
is how much it's going to cost. Now, we have a cost estimate here that
I think Bob Daggett gave us, but we also have the cost estimate for the
new building, which the consultants gave us a year or so ago, two years
ago maybe, and some of their unit costs are particularly high. And so I
don't know if they're high estimators or Bob's a low estimator, or if the
truth lies somewhere in the middle, but we're talking significant
difference in estimated costs.
ROSS I spoke to Bob Daggett on that issue and we discussed it at length. And
using the same criteria that he used for this plan, it was his feeling that
that same building, even nearly 60,000 square feet, would be under
$8,000,000. He gave a number of reasons why he felt that buildings were
overbuilt or built way above cost. And I think he may have mentioned some
of them in the last study session. But that was his feeling, and that's
the way he's based this cost. So if you were comparing this to a new
building, you'd have to use the same criteria, and based on that criteria,
his criteria would be about $7,500,000 for the facility recommended
originally by. . . .
HARBICHT Well, the shell or the whole ball of wax?
ROSS The whole thing, he said. That's what I kept asking him, I said does this
include fees and everything? He said yes.
HARBICHT And interior?
CIRAULO As opposed to this recommended idea, which is about $2.3 million, right?
ROSS Well, this whole thing, though, this whole thing is $3.5 million.
CIRAULO Three point five.
WOOLARD I think what Kent was comparing was that the plan for a new Library was
like, $16,000,000. The same numbers applied from Daggett's figures, the
new Library would only cost $7,500,000 to $8,000,000. So there's quite
a large difference. But a lot of it may have to do with materials and
other details that Bob has a different image of than the other people who
may have been, let's say, going with a Cadillac. I really don't think
you're going to have a handle on it until you actually have an architect
getting down to the more. . . .
CIRAULO Well, it seems to me that t?-at's what we need to do next, is to have an
architect look at. . .we all seem to like this concept. . .have an architect
put pencil to paper and come back to us.
8
FASCHING Well, we have to advertise for an architect.
CIRAULO Well, go out to bid, I guess.
WOOLARD Daggett can still help us a lot if he wants to volunteer.
FASCHING Well, I think he'd be perfectly willing to volunteer to help out on this
thing even though he can't bid on it. But I think he's involved himself
on a volunteer basis with us, which I think is great, and I would certainly
like to keep him involved, to what extent the staff might want to, to
advise us. I personally feel that we probably get ripped off every time
we build something in this City.
MARGETT Well, that's true, Mr. Mayor, and I think that's where Bob Daggett's coming
from. I'm sure that there are architects out there that will build you
a library for $20,000,000. There's no problem doing it. Or ten or eight.
And I think that that's the key in the whole thing. I think what Bob
Daggett wants to be able to do is say, hey, we have $3,000,000, or whatever
we're coming up with, five, or what your budget is, make that thing work
at $5,000,000 and make it look like we're going to spend $20,000,000. And
I think that's what we should be doing.
FASCHING Well, I think we should be taking advantage of this type of expertise and
help that can be furnished to us by one of our commissioners, that's what
they're there for. They're residents that are interested in the City and
the future of it, too. That's why I propose that we settle on this
concept, we're happy with it. We have a budget, we know where the money
is coming from. We tell Daggett and the Librarian this is what we want
to do, and let Daggett put the finishing touches on it so we know, and let
him kind of help us as we want him to in the process of. . . .
MARGETT I think you'll watch your nickels and dimes and have him. . . .
FASCHING . . .soliciting architects and soliciting, when the time comes, to
contractors and everything else.
LOJESKI What's the current status, Jim, of our fund that we could take it away
from.
DALE I just happened to look at that, and I would think that what you're talking
about is probably the Capital Outlay Fund, which has got about $2,032,000,
and the Facility Construction Fund, which has another $3,327,000. So those
two funds are really specifically for. . .
LOJESKI A combination of those things.
HARBICHT A little over $5,000,000.
DALE A little over $5,000,000, right.
FASCHING Well, I would like to do this as best we can so that we could ve some
money left over for some other things that we might want to dL _own the
road.
HARBICHT What did the Community Center cost us, Bill, on a per-square-foot basis,
do you recall?
WOOLARD A little over $200. But because of the materials and detail work that was
a lot higher.
HARBICHT That included the interior, detail, the wood. . . .
WOOLARD Yeah.
HARBICHT And that was a little over $200. And the consultants that we had on the
Library a year or two ago, they're. . . .
ROSS They were over $250, I think. . .$270, I think. You di"ide it by the square
footage, divide $16,000,000 by 59,000.
9
-p.
CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
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to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
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ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
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HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
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E D I T E D
TRANS C R I P T
(Insofar as decipherable)
RELATING TO
ARCADIA CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION
JUNE 24, 1992
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CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
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to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
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ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
5
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1
FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
to it, however, another one which is potentially unknown as far as its
impact. They just simply say that they might want to require that
agencies would receive in tax increment only what they've legally
contracted for. In our case, we have bonded indebtedness, that's $330,000
a year. Well, the rest of it is often pay as you go. We pay as we go.
They would sort of take that away. They would simply give us in tax
increment $330,000 because that's contractually established.
•
50
1 - TTh
1
FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
4
LOJESKI Hasn't Kent looked at this. . . .
FASCHING You're bringing up a lot of other questions. You say you want to be
guaranteed the extra square feet will be good for another 25 years, and
all those things.
LOJESKI I didn't use the word guarantee. I want to be assured that what we're
talking is going to be usable for the next period of time.
ROSS It's 10 years that I said would be the absolute guarantee that would. . .the
capacity would be guaranteed for that time. Beyond that it's difficult
to tell, the changes that could occur. Certainly, when we do this it would
be a 25-year building. But it could be at capacity in 10 years.
CIRAULO And what might extend that, too, is. . .I understand it's just preliminary
at this point, but I understand the School District is having some
preliminary discussions about some way to access the Library by way of
computer and keep most of the students at the school.
ROSS They already do. They do access the Library by computer, but actually what
that does is tell them what we have so they know that we have it before
they come over. And that's primarily the way it's used now. They
originally wanted a retrieval system, and then they couldn't afford the
people to come and retrieve the items at the time because of their budget.
But they still have access to our collection by computer.
CIRAULO They have that now?
ROSS They have that now.
HARBICHT Well, some comments that I have on this is, one, the question of where the
money is going to come from. I think this is why we have to prioritize
our capital improvements. We have the Capital Improvements Budget, we have
money in it, we have receipts going into it from the Track and the other
monies that we're putting into that. So if we decide that we're going to
build this Library, or build this addition to the Library, the money is
available in the Capital Improvements Fund. That's what the Capital
Improvements Fund is for. And if that takes up most of the money there,
then any other capital improvements that we want, such as an auditorium,
whatever, are just going to have to be put off two or three years until
we build it up to the point where we can do it. That's the way we've
always done it in this City. And I guess I'll express the opinion that,
in my mind, this is the number one priority. And so I would be in favor
of using the Capital Improvements Funds for doing the Library. I guess
the question of how long the Library is going. . .how long this would
last. . .Kent, I'm going to argue with you a little bit on this. I don't
know why it would only last for 10 years. I don't think we foresee any
significant population growth here in Arcadia. As a matter of fact, the
consultants' report that we had visualized almost no growth.
ROSS Well, I didn't say it wouldn't last more than 10 years; I said I couldn't
guarantee it. I could absolutely guarantee that it would certainly have
sufficient space for growth up to 10 years. After that, there are a lot
of things we don't know, as I explained, I think, the last time. . .particul-
ar, say, reference volumes that were only two volumes at one time are now
10, 15, and they've grown by 10 times. But we're still required to have
those. So the same thing, to serve the community in this much space 10
years ago now takes several shelves.
HARBICHT I understand that. I guess I'm thinking in terms of, you know, one of the
things that would have the greatest influence on the size of the Library
needed is the number of people using it. I think the number of people
using it is pretty closely tied to population growth. And so I don't
visualize a huge increase in the number of people using it. In regard to
the reference volumes, that's true and I know that the amount of
information in the world is constantly expanding and we seem to be putting
more of it on our shelves. But it could be, and I think it's very likely,
that 10 or 15 years from now an awful lot of that is going to be on laser
disk and you're not even going to have those volumes. . .you're just going
to pop a laser disk in and read what you want, and print out the part you
7
� t
want. Which means that actually there would be a shrinking demand for
space there. But I guess in my mind. . .Dennis asked the question, how long
would this be good for. I'm fairly convinced that this kind of an
expansion is going to be good for more than 10 years, and I don't think
20 years. . .my guess, and I'm not a library expert, but my guess just based
on what I see in trends is I think we're pretty safe in saying that if we
were to do this it's going to serve the needs of Arcadia for 20 years.
CIRAULO Well, that's a good question to ask. How much extra space do we need to
last us for 25 years?
HARBICHT Because if it was only going to be 10 years, I'd be pretty reluctant to
do this. If I thought 10 years from now we were going to have to tear
everything down and build a new Library, I might say maybe we ought to just
struggle along with what we've got for three more and save up the money
and then build a brand new Library. So, that's my feeling.
FASCHING I feel that it's going to last us for 20, 25 years. The one we have was '
conceivably out of space 20 years ago, and we've been using that for 20
years since then.
•
[End of Tape 1 - Side 1, beginning of Tape 1 - side 2]
HARBICHT . . .in terms of making a decision as to whether or not we should do this
is how much it's going to cost. Now, we have a cost estimate here that
I think Bob Daggett gave us, but we also have the cost estimate for the
new building, which the consultants gave us a year or so ago, two years
ago maybe, and some of their unit costs are particularly high. And so I
don't know if they're high estimators or Bob's a low estimator, or if the
truth lies somewhere in the middle, but we're talking significant
difference in estimated costs.
ROSS I spoke to Bob Daggett on that issue and we discussed it at length. And
using the same criteria that he used for this plan, it was his feeling that
that same building, even nearly 60,000 square feet, would be under
$8,000,000. He gave a number of reasons why he felt that buildings were
overbuilt or built way above cost. And I think he may have mentioned some
of them in the last study session. But that was his feeling, and that's
the way he's based this cost. So if you were comparing this to a new
building, you'd have to use the same criteria, and based on that criteria,
his criteria would be about $7,500,000 for the facility recommended
originally by. . . .
HARBICHT Well, the shell or the whole ball of wax?
ROSS The whole thing, he said. That's what I kept asking him, I said does this
include fees and everything? He said yes.
HARBICHT And interior?
CIRAULO As opposed to this recommended idea, which is about $2.3 million, right?
ROSS Well, this whole thing, though, this whole thing is $3.5 million.
CIRAULO Three point five.
WOOLARD I think what Kent was comparing was that the plan for a new Library was
like, $16,000,000. The same numbers applied from Daggett's figures, the
new Library would only cost $7,500,000 to $8,000,000. So there's quite
a large difference. But a lot of it may have to do with materials and
other details that Bob has a different image of than the other people who
may have been, let's say, going with a Cadillac. I really don't think
you're going to have a handle on it until you actually have an architect
getting down to the more. . . .
CIRAULO Well, it seems to me that t?-at's what we need to do next, is to have an
architect look at. . .we all seem to like this concept. . .have an architect
put pencil to paper and come back to us.
8
FASCHING Well, we have to advertise for an architect.
CIRAULO Well, go out to bid, I guess.
WOOLARD Daggett can still help us a lot if he wants to volunteer.
FASCHING Well, I think he'd be perfectly willing to volunteer to help out on this
thing even though he can't bid on it. But I think he's involved himself
on a volunteer basis with us, which I think is great, and I would certainly
like to keep him involved, to what extent the staff might want to, to
advise us. I personally feel that we probably get ripped off every time
we build something in this City.
MARGETT Well, that's true, Mr. Mayor, and I think that's where Bob Daggett's coming
from. I'm sure that there are architects out there that will build you
a library for $20,000,000. There's no problem doing it. Or ten or eight.
And I think that that's the key in the whole thing. I think what Bob
Daggett wants to be able to do is say, hey, we have $3,000,000, or whatever
we're coming up with, five, or what your budget is, make that thing work
at $5,000,000 and make it look like we're going to spend $20,000,000. And
I think that's what we should be doing.
FASCHING Well, I think we should be taking advantage of this type of expertise and
help that can be furnished to us by one of our commissioners, that's what
they're there for. They're residents that are interested in the City and
the future of it, too. That's why I propose that we settle on this
concept, we're happy with it. We have a budget, we know where the money
is coming from. We tell Daggett and the Librarian this is what we want
to do, and let Daggett put the finishing touches on it so we know, and let
him kind of help us as we want him to in the process of. . . .
MARGETT I think you'll watch your nickels and dimes and have him. . . .
FASCHING . . .soliciting architects and soliciting, when the time comes, to
contractors and everything else.
LOJESKI What's the current status, Jim, of our fund that we could take it away
from.
DALE I just happened to look at that, and I would think that what you're talking
about is probably the Capital Outlay Fund, which has got about $2,032,000,
and the Facility Construction Fund, which has another $3,327,000. So those
two funds are really specifically for. . .
LOJESKI A combination of those things.
HARBICHT A little over $5,000,000.
DALE A little over $5,000,000, right.
FASCHING Well, I would like to do this as best we can so that we could ve some
money left over for some other things that we might want to dL _own the
road.
HARBICHT What did the Community Center cost us, Bill, on a per-square-foot basis,
do you recall?
WOOLARD A little over $200. But because of the materials and detail work that was
a lot higher.
HARBICHT That included the interior, detail, the wood. . . .
WOOLARD Yeah.
HARBICHT And that was a little over $200. And the consultants that we had on the
Library a year or two ago, they're. . . .
ROSS They were over $250, I think. . .$270, I think. You di"ide it by the square
footage, divide $16,000,000 by 59,000.
9
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
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FASCHING And then tell him we'd appreciate it, as commissioner, if he'd kind of give
us some advice as we go along on this with some of these outside bids and
everything.
CIRAULO Sounds like a way to go.
HARBICHT Well, I'd like to be more specific than that. I think if we agree on the
concept that we should get going on advertising for proposals for
architect.
LOJESKI I think where Bob can help out is working with the staff in formulating
the RFP.
FASCHING Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
LOJESKI I don't want to see any other extra steps involved. . .I think just go right
into it.
FASCHING Well, that's exactly what I was talking about, using him as a consultant
and working with staff on the deal.
MILLER You want him to be a voluntary consultant on our process?
FASCHING Sure. He's willing to do that. Yeah. So then we'll do that? .
HARBICHT I think that's what we're all saying in different ways.
FASCHING Yeah, right. O.K. Do we have agreement, then, on that?
MARGETT Yeah. What do you need, a motion, Mr. Mayor, or what do you want to do?
CIRAULO I will so move, Mr. Mayor.
MARGETT Second the motion, Mr. Mayor.
MILLER O.K. , that is to go out for RFP's with Mr. Daggett as a volunteering
consultant?
(Several or all Councilmembers answered affirmative.)
HARBICHT Can I just ask a couple of questions for clarification here if, in fact,
this is included in the motion or should be. I think that what we're
approving here is a concept for additions. It seems like we ought to also
be including some cost level that we want to have put into that RFP, it
would be a part of the thing.
CIRAULO Well, we won't know until an architect comes back at us, right?
HARBICHT I think- that, I guess. . . .
CIRAULO You want to give him a ceiling up front, and say not to exceed. . . .
HARBICHT I mean, I think we ought to make some estimate of how much are we willing
to spend? I mean, what if he comes back and he does all these drawings
and everything and we find out it's going to cost us $6,000,000 to add this
stuff, and we say why didn't we build a new building.
MARGETT Well, isn't that part of the process that architects would present to us,
what they think they can do the drawing for?
HARBICHT Dennis was saying, and I agree with him, that we have to say, how much is
this worth to us? At least some general statement of how much we're
willing to spend to do these additions. I mean, I guess I'm saying I would
like to have the architects work within a parameter of approximately three
and a half million dollars, the whole thing. . . .
CIRAULO Three and a half to four million.
Give them a ballpark figure.
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CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
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to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
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ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
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E D I T E D
TRANS C R I P T
(Insofar as decipherable)
RELATING TO
ARCADIA CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION
JUNE 24, 1992
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CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
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to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
2
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Y�
ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
3
r
perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
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FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
to it, however, another one which is potentially unknown as far as its
impact. They just simply say that they might want to require that
agencies would receive in tax increment only what they've legally
contracted for. In our case, we have bonded indebtedness, that's $330,000
a year. Well, the rest of it is often pay as you go. We pay as we go.
They would sort of take that away. They would simply give us in tax
increment $330,000 because that's contractually established.
•
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FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
4
LOJESKI Hasn't Kent looked at this. . . .
FASCHING You're bringing up a lot of other questions. You say you want to be
guaranteed the extra square feet will be good for another 25 years, and
all those things.
LOJESKI I didn't use the word guarantee. I want to be assured that what we're
talking is going to be usable for the next period of time.
ROSS It's 10 years that I said would be the absolute guarantee that would. . .the
capacity would be guaranteed for that time. Beyond that it's difficult
to tell, the changes that could occur. Certainly, when we do this it would
be a 25-year building. But it could be at capacity in 10 years.
CIRAULO And what might extend that, too, is. . .I understand it's just preliminary
at this point, but I understand the School District is having some
preliminary discussions about some way to access the Library by way of
computer and keep most of the students at the school.
ROSS They already do. They do access the Library by computer, but actually what
that does is tell them what we have so they know that we have it before
they come over. And that's primarily the way it's used now. They
originally wanted a retrieval system, and then they couldn't afford the
people to come and retrieve the items at the time because of their budget.
But they still have access to our collection by computer.
CIRAULO They have that now?
ROSS They have that now.
HARBICHT Well, some comments that I have on this is, one, the question of where the
money is going to come from. I think this is why we have to prioritize
our capital improvements. We have the Capital Improvements Budget, we have
money in it, we have receipts going into it from the Track and the other
monies that we're putting into that. So if we decide that we're going to
build this Library, or build this addition to the Library, the money is
available in the Capital Improvements Fund. That's what the Capital
Improvements Fund is for. And if that takes up most of the money there,
then any other capital improvements that we want, such as an auditorium,
whatever, are just going to have to be put off two or three years until
we build it up to the point where we can do it. That's the way we've
always done it in this City. And I guess I'll express the opinion that,
in my mind, this is the number one priority. And so I would be in favor
of using the Capital Improvements Funds for doing the Library. I guess
the question of how long the Library is going. . .how long this would
last. . .Kent, I'm going to argue with you a little bit on this. I don't
know why it would only last for 10 years. I don't think we foresee any
significant population growth here in Arcadia. As a matter of fact, the
consultants' report that we had visualized almost no growth.
ROSS Well, I didn't say it wouldn't last more than 10 years; I said I couldn't
guarantee it. I could absolutely guarantee that it would certainly have
sufficient space for growth up to 10 years. After that, there are a lot
of things we don't know, as I explained, I think, the last time. . .particul-
ar, say, reference volumes that were only two volumes at one time are now
10, 15, and they've grown by 10 times. But we're still required to have
those. So the same thing, to serve the community in this much space 10
years ago now takes several shelves.
HARBICHT I understand that. I guess I'm thinking in terms of, you know, one of the
things that would have the greatest influence on the size of the Library
needed is the number of people using it. I think the number of people
using it is pretty closely tied to population growth. And so I don't
visualize a huge increase in the number of people using it. In regard to
the reference volumes, that's true and I know that the amount of
information in the world is constantly expanding and we seem to be putting
more of it on our shelves. But it could be, and I think it's very likely,
that 10 or 15 years from now an awful lot of that is going to be on laser
disk and you're not even going to have those volumes. . .you're just going
to pop a laser disk in and read what you want, and print out the part you
7
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want. Which means that actually there would be a shrinking demand for
space there. But I guess in my mind. . .Dennis asked the question, how long
would this be good for. I'm fairly convinced that this kind of an
expansion is going to be good for more than 10 years, and I don't think
20 years. . .my guess, and I'm not a library expert, but my guess just based
on what I see in trends is I think we're pretty safe in saying that if we
were to do this it's going to serve the needs of Arcadia for 20 years.
CIRAULO Well, that's a good question to ask. How much extra space do we need to
last us for 25 years?
HARBICHT Because if it was only going to be 10 years, I'd be pretty reluctant to
do this. If I thought 10 years from now we were going to have to tear
everything down and build a new Library, I might say maybe we ought to just
struggle along with what we've got for three more and save up the money
and then build a brand new Library. So, that's my feeling.
FASCHING I feel that it's going to last us for 20, 25 years. The one we have was '
conceivably out of space 20 years ago, and we've been using that for 20
years since then.
•
[End of Tape 1 - Side 1, beginning of Tape 1 - side 2]
HARBICHT . . .in terms of making a decision as to whether or not we should do this
is how much it's going to cost. Now, we have a cost estimate here that
I think Bob Daggett gave us, but we also have the cost estimate for the
new building, which the consultants gave us a year or so ago, two years
ago maybe, and some of their unit costs are particularly high. And so I
don't know if they're high estimators or Bob's a low estimator, or if the
truth lies somewhere in the middle, but we're talking significant
difference in estimated costs.
ROSS I spoke to Bob Daggett on that issue and we discussed it at length. And
using the same criteria that he used for this plan, it was his feeling that
that same building, even nearly 60,000 square feet, would be under
$8,000,000. He gave a number of reasons why he felt that buildings were
overbuilt or built way above cost. And I think he may have mentioned some
of them in the last study session. But that was his feeling, and that's
the way he's based this cost. So if you were comparing this to a new
building, you'd have to use the same criteria, and based on that criteria,
his criteria would be about $7,500,000 for the facility recommended
originally by. . . .
HARBICHT Well, the shell or the whole ball of wax?
ROSS The whole thing, he said. That's what I kept asking him, I said does this
include fees and everything? He said yes.
HARBICHT And interior?
CIRAULO As opposed to this recommended idea, which is about $2.3 million, right?
ROSS Well, this whole thing, though, this whole thing is $3.5 million.
CIRAULO Three point five.
WOOLARD I think what Kent was comparing was that the plan for a new Library was
like, $16,000,000. The same numbers applied from Daggett's figures, the
new Library would only cost $7,500,000 to $8,000,000. So there's quite
a large difference. But a lot of it may have to do with materials and
other details that Bob has a different image of than the other people who
may have been, let's say, going with a Cadillac. I really don't think
you're going to have a handle on it until you actually have an architect
getting down to the more. . . .
CIRAULO Well, it seems to me that t?-at's what we need to do next, is to have an
architect look at. . .we all seem to like this concept. . .have an architect
put pencil to paper and come back to us.
8
FASCHING Well, we have to advertise for an architect.
CIRAULO Well, go out to bid, I guess.
WOOLARD Daggett can still help us a lot if he wants to volunteer.
FASCHING Well, I think he'd be perfectly willing to volunteer to help out on this
thing even though he can't bid on it. But I think he's involved himself
on a volunteer basis with us, which I think is great, and I would certainly
like to keep him involved, to what extent the staff might want to, to
advise us. I personally feel that we probably get ripped off every time
we build something in this City.
MARGETT Well, that's true, Mr. Mayor, and I think that's where Bob Daggett's coming
from. I'm sure that there are architects out there that will build you
a library for $20,000,000. There's no problem doing it. Or ten or eight.
And I think that that's the key in the whole thing. I think what Bob
Daggett wants to be able to do is say, hey, we have $3,000,000, or whatever
we're coming up with, five, or what your budget is, make that thing work
at $5,000,000 and make it look like we're going to spend $20,000,000. And
I think that's what we should be doing.
FASCHING Well, I think we should be taking advantage of this type of expertise and
help that can be furnished to us by one of our commissioners, that's what
they're there for. They're residents that are interested in the City and
the future of it, too. That's why I propose that we settle on this
concept, we're happy with it. We have a budget, we know where the money
is coming from. We tell Daggett and the Librarian this is what we want
to do, and let Daggett put the finishing touches on it so we know, and let
him kind of help us as we want him to in the process of. . . .
MARGETT I think you'll watch your nickels and dimes and have him. . . .
FASCHING . . .soliciting architects and soliciting, when the time comes, to
contractors and everything else.
LOJESKI What's the current status, Jim, of our fund that we could take it away
from.
DALE I just happened to look at that, and I would think that what you're talking
about is probably the Capital Outlay Fund, which has got about $2,032,000,
and the Facility Construction Fund, which has another $3,327,000. So those
two funds are really specifically for. . .
LOJESKI A combination of those things.
HARBICHT A little over $5,000,000.
DALE A little over $5,000,000, right.
FASCHING Well, I would like to do this as best we can so that we could ve some
money left over for some other things that we might want to dL _own the
road.
HARBICHT What did the Community Center cost us, Bill, on a per-square-foot basis,
do you recall?
WOOLARD A little over $200. But because of the materials and detail work that was
a lot higher.
HARBICHT That included the interior, detail, the wood. . . .
WOOLARD Yeah.
HARBICHT And that was a little over $200. And the consultants that we had on the
Library a year or two ago, they're. . . .
ROSS They were over $250, I think. . .$270, I think. You di"ide it by the square
footage, divide $16,000,000 by 59,000.
9
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
FASCHING And then tell him we'd appreciate it, as commissioner, if he'd kind of give
us some advice as we go along on this with some of these outside bids and
everything.
CIRAULO Sounds like a way to go.
HARBICHT Well, I'd like to be more specific than that. I think if we agree on the
concept that we should get going on advertising for proposals for
architect.
LOJESKI I think where Bob can help out is working with the staff in formulating
the RFP.
FASCHING Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
LOJESKI I don't want to see any other extra steps involved. . .I think just go right
into it.
FASCHING Well, that's exactly what I was talking about, using him as a consultant
and working with staff on the deal.
MILLER You want him to be a voluntary consultant on our process?
FASCHING Sure. He's willing to do that. Yeah. So then we'll do that? .
HARBICHT I think that's what we're all saying in different ways.
FASCHING Yeah, right. O.K. Do we have agreement, then, on that?
MARGETT Yeah. What do you need, a motion, Mr. Mayor, or what do you want to do?
CIRAULO I will so move, Mr. Mayor.
MARGETT Second the motion, Mr. Mayor.
MILLER O.K. , that is to go out for RFP's with Mr. Daggett as a volunteering
consultant?
(Several or all Councilmembers answered affirmative.)
HARBICHT Can I just ask a couple of questions for clarification here if, in fact,
this is included in the motion or should be. I think that what we're
approving here is a concept for additions. It seems like we ought to also
be including some cost level that we want to have put into that RFP, it
would be a part of the thing.
CIRAULO Well, we won't know until an architect comes back at us, right?
HARBICHT I think- that, I guess. . . .
CIRAULO You want to give him a ceiling up front, and say not to exceed. . . .
HARBICHT I mean, I think we ought to make some estimate of how much are we willing
to spend? I mean, what if he comes back and he does all these drawings
and everything and we find out it's going to cost us $6,000,000 to add this
stuff, and we say why didn't we build a new building.
MARGETT Well, isn't that part of the process that architects would present to us,
what they think they can do the drawing for?
HARBICHT Dennis was saying, and I agree with him, that we have to say, how much is
this worth to us? At least some general statement of how much we're
willing to spend to do these additions. I mean, I guess I'm saying I would
like to have the architects work within a parameter of approximately three
and a half million dollars, the whole thing. . . .
CIRAULO Three and a half to four million.
Give them a ballpark figure.
11
h
LOJESKI Because if you don't, Bob, what happens? An architect. . .if you give an
architect carte blanche, O.K. , an architect who, let's say, has never done
any work in Arcadia with any public buildings. Doesn't know the City,
starts going through the City and says, hey, look at this town, now this
town's got a lot of dough. Look, they just built this Community Center.
They could have saved and used a veneer on the outside of this build-
ing. . .they used a solid block construction.
HARBICHT Well, they'll start looking at some of the houses.
LOJESKI Yeah. Go inside and you see this fancy paneling. So an architect could
say, well, I'll design it and I'll make it look really great and push my
project. And, like Bob says, you're up to a six, seven, eight million
dollar addition.
HARBICHT I guess I would like to see us state that we would, what I'll suggest is,
that we say we're looking at this kind of a concept with satellite
buildings. We're looking to have this thing in the three to three and a
half million dollar range, including tax and license, the whole thing.
MARGETT The furnishings also?
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING Well, I think that one thing here is that from an architectural standpoint
he's not going to bid the interior and all new fixtures.
HARBICHT No, no. All of the stuff that he has--the electrical, the ceilings, doing
the rotunda, a new roof, all of that stuff--we're looking at the whole
package in the range of three to three and a half million.
FASCHING Well, this is why I'd like to have Daggett redefine his figures.
WOOLARD What we can do is, call for RFP's and include some cost parameters and
bring this whole package back to Council.
HARBICHT And I think we need to tell you what we're looking at.
FASCHING Well, let's have Daggett develop the parameters or the figures first. . . .
HARBICHT He already has.
LOJESKI He already has, what more is he going to give us?
FASCHING Well, I'd like to make sure that he agrees on this.
HARBICHT I guess what I'm saying is that if. . .
FASCHING Who's going to bid on the interiors and all the fixtures?
HARBICHT . . .he gets down to sharpening his pencil and says, gee, this really comes
up to $4,000,000, maybe his recommendation would be to not include Building
A or make some modifications.
ROSS One of the things, there's a contingency factor in there, and when you're
working with the interior of the existing building, there are some
unpredictable costs in there, and he actually did go up to $4,000,000 in
my discussions with him. . .anywhere from $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
CIRAULO My guess would be the range would be $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
ROSS That's what he said.
FASCHING Well. . .because of contingencies?
ROSS Yes. See, we wouldn't know for sure until you have a structural engineer
go in there and look since you have to decide what you're going to do with
the building, upgrades and that sort of thing, because it will have to be
seismically upgraded.
12
LOJESKI Say three to four, it gives them a nice parameter. And if they could come
in at four with fixtures, furnishings, and the whole bit. . .because I don't
think some of the furnishings are. . . .
FASCHING Who's going to bid on the furnishings?
That's a separate deal.
LOJESKI A separate deal. I'm saying that the whole package came in between three
and four.
FASCHING We're dealing with the architect is going to design the building, correct?
And then we're going to deal with somebody to do the interior and interior
layout. Who's going to do the layout on the interior?
HARBICHT I'm talking the building right now. I'm talking about the things that Bob
has outlined here--the new roof, the ' painting, the new ceilings, the
heating and air conditioning, all of those things--that's what I'm talking
about here. And I think that we have to state some number.
LOJESKI How about a range of three to four?
HARBICHT That's fine with me.
FASCHING Well, wait a minute. . .three to four on the exterior building? How much
do we have for interior?
HARBICHT Well, his. . .about three and a half.
FASCHING Interior?
LOJESKI No. No interior.
HARBICHT Well, what are you talking about, interior?
LOJESKI It doesn't include carpets, doesn't include shelving, doesn't include. . . .
ROSS For the new part, tenant improvements at $25 a square foot, $395,000. And
then under the redo, which is the existing building, he has new (inaudible)
movable equipment. And those are the estimates.
MARGETT It's not very much money. . .$60,000, $75,000.
CIRAULO Seventy-five.
ROSS But that's what he was considering movable equipment, is the furniture that
you would install, shelves and all. •
FASCHING Well, why don't we move to go ahead with the concept and get together on
this with Daggett, redefine his figures, and ask him to come to our next
Council pre-meeting and define them, and then at that time we could make
a motion for how much money and everything else. We should have had him
here tonight.
LOJESKI I think they're here, George. I really think they're there. I think if
you proceed ahead, go out to the RFP, have Bob Daggett communicate and give
input on that RFP, give a range to the architectural world of $3,000,000
to $4,000,000, I think you're in the ballpark.
FASCHING Well, I hate to give them a latitude of $1,000,000 if they could come in
at three and say, well, we'll go to four and charge us another $1,000,000.
LOJESKI Well, sure.
WOOLARD Well, we're going to. . .in the RFP there would be an emphasis on trying to
do this thing at the lower end of this range.
LOJESKI And if construction is tough right now and people are hungry out there,
you might get it in for three. If things start to boom, then you may have
to pay more.
13
r
CIRAULO Well, that's part of the bidding. So that's going to keep it down right
there.
WOOLARD That's a year off anyway.
CIRAULO Well, I think we're all talking the same idea here.
LOJESKI I just want to see the thing get going.
HARBICHT I just feel that we have to put a dollar figure in there. We can't just
give a blank check.
MARGETT That's right. In other words, we're going to build a library for
$3,500,000. . .can you do it for this, and what's your proposal to be able
to do it for that, right?
HARBICHT That's fine with me.
FASCHING I don't know how we ever get that until we go to bid and get bids on what
the architect does and then what he wants to build.
MARGETT Well, that's fine, but I mean at least. . .I think what they're saying--and
maybe I'm misreading these guys--but I think what they're saying is when
you go out to request proposal for architects, Bill Woolard can say, "Hey,
listen, we've got a deal over here in town. We're going to have X number
of square feet of library, X number of redo. We feel there's going to be
$3,500,000 to $4,000,000. And an architect will soon tell you, well,
you're in the ballpark or your not.
CIRAULO Well, he'll gear everything around the numbers we give him.
MARGETT And if it was $20,000,000, he'd do that.
CIRAULO Yeah. So you have to give him some guidelines.
LOJESKI Give him those guidelines. . .that pencil will go all over the place.
FASCHING Then why don't we just stay at $3,500,000?
CIRAULO Around $3,500,000.
MARGETT Approximately $3,500,000.
FASCHING That's our budget, $3,500,000.
MARGETT It's a conceptual stage in everything we're doing.
HARBICHT You make that part of the motion.
CIRAULO O.K. , I'll make that part of the motion tonight.
HARBICHT Great.
MILLER You need a second I think.
ALFORD You have a second. You have a motion and a second on the floor.
FASCHING What's the motion on the floor?
ALFORD The motion is to go out to the RFP's with Mr. Daggett as a consultant.
FASCHING Yeah. And with the $3,500,000 budget, is that what you're amending?
CIRAULO Yes, that's what was added.
FASCHING That includes interior and exterior?
HARBICHT Well, it includes the things that Bob has included in his rough estimate
here, which does include a lot of that.
14
FASCHING Is that interior/exterior?
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING O.K. , that's all right. Who seconded it?
MARGETT I did.
FASCHING Roll call.
ROLL CALL AYES: Ciraulo, Harbicht, Lojeski, Margett, Fasching
MAYOR O.K. One thing while you're still here, Kent. We have a request for the
FASCHING Council's information. We have a Mr. Charles Neiman, I think you all
REQUEST TO received. . .well, no, the new Councilmembers didn't, he wants to put on
WAIVE BUS. LIC. some shows, plays, at the Library. All shows to be done in good taste.
PERMIT FEES The Library would pay no money to the productions. The theater would be
(ARC. COMM. called ACT, Arcadia Community Theater. You've seen this before with
THEATER) Charles Neiman, this fellow. Well, anyway, Kent, tell us about it so
they all know.
ROSS O.K. He is wanting to put on a number of plays in the Community Room in
the Library. He brought this up to the Board and asked if he could. do it
for the first couple productions without the fee, because he didn't have
the money to start off and he wanted to. . .he's going to charge admissions,
and he intended to, as soon as he had enough money, then he would pay fees
after the first two performances. The Board felt at the time that they
would like to see some kind of group insurance, Workers Compensation
insurance, before they allowed him to proceed with this. And that's where
it was left, so I contacted the City Attorney on that issue and he agreed
that we should get some proof of Workers Compensation insurance from Mr.
Neiman. That's where it stands right now. He has made a lot of efforts
to obtain this insurance, and he's filled out a number of applications for
things, which he sent me copies, but so far I've seen no evidence that any
of these agencies have given any approval.
FASCHING Now, would you tell us your approval of this project, if it so exists?
ROSS Oh, the Board certainly would approve the project. It was contingent upon
his obtaining Workers Compensation insurance.
CIRAULO What kind of plays?
ROSS Oh, one of the examples he mentioned was "The Mouse Trap." They're kind
of conventional plays.
CIRAULO For children?
ROSS No, for adults.
FASCHING There's a fee that he charges, $9 for adults and $6 for seniors attending,
and 99 is the capacity audience.
ROSS Well, it's not the capacity of the room, it's the capacity before you get
into the Actors Equity. If you have over 100, you have to start paying
the actors.
LOJESKI Does he currently have a program like this that he's putting on these
performances someplace?
ROSS Not now, no. He has nothing right now. He had about 20 years ago, and
I guess they had put on the Community Theater in the Library at that time
and he was involved with it at that time. It disappeared since then.
FASCHING Mr. Neiman lives in Arcadia, on San Miguel Drive. He's an old (inaudible)
actor, director, etcetera. He came in to see me about it. He has been
able to secure. . .he has a very limited budget to start this thing on, and
he's worked out the details, with the Library Board. He will obtain
insurance through State Fund, but it's going to cost him $1,250 up front.
And he'll get that all back at the end of the production period except
$250. What he would like us to do is not charge him for a permit from the
15
k,.
City, a business permit, to do these productions. He said he just can't
afford to be putting that out also.
MARGETT How much is that, George?
FASCHING I think it's $200, as I recall.
HARBICHT How much?
FASCHING Two hundred dollars, I think. So he'd like us to waive the City permit
fee since these are sort of a community-oriented type of thing. Although
he does charge $8. And, what, we're giving him two performances. What
is our rent on the other performance?
ROSS It normally is $25 an hour, but a two-hour minimum. So he'd be paying at
least $50.
FASCHING It sounds like a worthwhile program, and it's a cultural thing for the
children in the Library and adults, an activity at the Library. And I told
him I would take this to the Council and see if we would waive the business
license permit.
MARGETT O.K. , for one performance he's going to get approximately $900, is that
right, if he sells it out?
FASCHING Ninety-nine people, yeah.
MARGETT Nine hundred dollars, a little bit less than $900, is that right?
FASCHING Yeah.
MARGETT O.K. What does he have to pay for the. . .does he have to pay something for
the rights to be able to put on the show?
FASCHING I don't know how he reimburses his actors or actresses.
ROSS They're working for nothing.
MARGETT They're working for nothing?
ROSS He may have to pay for some scenery fees, have somebody build some scenery,
that may be a cost.
CIRAULO Didn't they do this over at Holly Avenue School one time years ago?
ROSS I don't recall. I know Sierra Madre has. . .he said he was involved with
that.
FASCHING He started that, the Sierra Madre Little Theater.
HARBICHT Let me ask you a question. Let's say that some piano teacher is going to
have a recital for her 10 students and so she wants to use our room and
ask the students' parents to come and hear the recital and. . .has that
happened, that kind of thing? Is it used for that kind of thing?
ROSS For recitals? Yeah, we use it for piano recitals all the time.
HARBICHT What do we charge?
ROSS In that same range, $25 an hour, $50 minimum. . .2 hours minimum,
HARBICHT What's our justification for not charging this guy? He's charging
admission.
ROSS Well, any time you waive charges it's based on the decision of the Library
Board. I mean, it's stated in the policy that this can be waived at their
discretion.
MILLER Has the Library Board ruled on this?
16
-p.
CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
1
K
I.y
to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
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ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
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HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
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E D I T E D
TRANS C R I P T
(Insofar as decipherable)
RELATING TO
ARCADIA CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION
JUNE 24, 1992
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-p.
CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
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to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
2
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ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
5
1 - TTh
1
FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
to it, however, another one which is potentially unknown as far as its
impact. They just simply say that they might want to require that
agencies would receive in tax increment only what they've legally
contracted for. In our case, we have bonded indebtedness, that's $330,000
a year. Well, the rest of it is often pay as you go. We pay as we go.
They would sort of take that away. They would simply give us in tax
increment $330,000 because that's contractually established.
•
50
1 - TTh
1
FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
4
LOJESKI Hasn't Kent looked at this. . . .
FASCHING You're bringing up a lot of other questions. You say you want to be
guaranteed the extra square feet will be good for another 25 years, and
all those things.
LOJESKI I didn't use the word guarantee. I want to be assured that what we're
talking is going to be usable for the next period of time.
ROSS It's 10 years that I said would be the absolute guarantee that would. . .the
capacity would be guaranteed for that time. Beyond that it's difficult
to tell, the changes that could occur. Certainly, when we do this it would
be a 25-year building. But it could be at capacity in 10 years.
CIRAULO And what might extend that, too, is. . .I understand it's just preliminary
at this point, but I understand the School District is having some
preliminary discussions about some way to access the Library by way of
computer and keep most of the students at the school.
ROSS They already do. They do access the Library by computer, but actually what
that does is tell them what we have so they know that we have it before
they come over. And that's primarily the way it's used now. They
originally wanted a retrieval system, and then they couldn't afford the
people to come and retrieve the items at the time because of their budget.
But they still have access to our collection by computer.
CIRAULO They have that now?
ROSS They have that now.
HARBICHT Well, some comments that I have on this is, one, the question of where the
money is going to come from. I think this is why we have to prioritize
our capital improvements. We have the Capital Improvements Budget, we have
money in it, we have receipts going into it from the Track and the other
monies that we're putting into that. So if we decide that we're going to
build this Library, or build this addition to the Library, the money is
available in the Capital Improvements Fund. That's what the Capital
Improvements Fund is for. And if that takes up most of the money there,
then any other capital improvements that we want, such as an auditorium,
whatever, are just going to have to be put off two or three years until
we build it up to the point where we can do it. That's the way we've
always done it in this City. And I guess I'll express the opinion that,
in my mind, this is the number one priority. And so I would be in favor
of using the Capital Improvements Funds for doing the Library. I guess
the question of how long the Library is going. . .how long this would
last. . .Kent, I'm going to argue with you a little bit on this. I don't
know why it would only last for 10 years. I don't think we foresee any
significant population growth here in Arcadia. As a matter of fact, the
consultants' report that we had visualized almost no growth.
ROSS Well, I didn't say it wouldn't last more than 10 years; I said I couldn't
guarantee it. I could absolutely guarantee that it would certainly have
sufficient space for growth up to 10 years. After that, there are a lot
of things we don't know, as I explained, I think, the last time. . .particul-
ar, say, reference volumes that were only two volumes at one time are now
10, 15, and they've grown by 10 times. But we're still required to have
those. So the same thing, to serve the community in this much space 10
years ago now takes several shelves.
HARBICHT I understand that. I guess I'm thinking in terms of, you know, one of the
things that would have the greatest influence on the size of the Library
needed is the number of people using it. I think the number of people
using it is pretty closely tied to population growth. And so I don't
visualize a huge increase in the number of people using it. In regard to
the reference volumes, that's true and I know that the amount of
information in the world is constantly expanding and we seem to be putting
more of it on our shelves. But it could be, and I think it's very likely,
that 10 or 15 years from now an awful lot of that is going to be on laser
disk and you're not even going to have those volumes. . .you're just going
to pop a laser disk in and read what you want, and print out the part you
7
� t
want. Which means that actually there would be a shrinking demand for
space there. But I guess in my mind. . .Dennis asked the question, how long
would this be good for. I'm fairly convinced that this kind of an
expansion is going to be good for more than 10 years, and I don't think
20 years. . .my guess, and I'm not a library expert, but my guess just based
on what I see in trends is I think we're pretty safe in saying that if we
were to do this it's going to serve the needs of Arcadia for 20 years.
CIRAULO Well, that's a good question to ask. How much extra space do we need to
last us for 25 years?
HARBICHT Because if it was only going to be 10 years, I'd be pretty reluctant to
do this. If I thought 10 years from now we were going to have to tear
everything down and build a new Library, I might say maybe we ought to just
struggle along with what we've got for three more and save up the money
and then build a brand new Library. So, that's my feeling.
FASCHING I feel that it's going to last us for 20, 25 years. The one we have was '
conceivably out of space 20 years ago, and we've been using that for 20
years since then.
•
[End of Tape 1 - Side 1, beginning of Tape 1 - side 2]
HARBICHT . . .in terms of making a decision as to whether or not we should do this
is how much it's going to cost. Now, we have a cost estimate here that
I think Bob Daggett gave us, but we also have the cost estimate for the
new building, which the consultants gave us a year or so ago, two years
ago maybe, and some of their unit costs are particularly high. And so I
don't know if they're high estimators or Bob's a low estimator, or if the
truth lies somewhere in the middle, but we're talking significant
difference in estimated costs.
ROSS I spoke to Bob Daggett on that issue and we discussed it at length. And
using the same criteria that he used for this plan, it was his feeling that
that same building, even nearly 60,000 square feet, would be under
$8,000,000. He gave a number of reasons why he felt that buildings were
overbuilt or built way above cost. And I think he may have mentioned some
of them in the last study session. But that was his feeling, and that's
the way he's based this cost. So if you were comparing this to a new
building, you'd have to use the same criteria, and based on that criteria,
his criteria would be about $7,500,000 for the facility recommended
originally by. . . .
HARBICHT Well, the shell or the whole ball of wax?
ROSS The whole thing, he said. That's what I kept asking him, I said does this
include fees and everything? He said yes.
HARBICHT And interior?
CIRAULO As opposed to this recommended idea, which is about $2.3 million, right?
ROSS Well, this whole thing, though, this whole thing is $3.5 million.
CIRAULO Three point five.
WOOLARD I think what Kent was comparing was that the plan for a new Library was
like, $16,000,000. The same numbers applied from Daggett's figures, the
new Library would only cost $7,500,000 to $8,000,000. So there's quite
a large difference. But a lot of it may have to do with materials and
other details that Bob has a different image of than the other people who
may have been, let's say, going with a Cadillac. I really don't think
you're going to have a handle on it until you actually have an architect
getting down to the more. . . .
CIRAULO Well, it seems to me that t?-at's what we need to do next, is to have an
architect look at. . .we all seem to like this concept. . .have an architect
put pencil to paper and come back to us.
8
FASCHING Well, we have to advertise for an architect.
CIRAULO Well, go out to bid, I guess.
WOOLARD Daggett can still help us a lot if he wants to volunteer.
FASCHING Well, I think he'd be perfectly willing to volunteer to help out on this
thing even though he can't bid on it. But I think he's involved himself
on a volunteer basis with us, which I think is great, and I would certainly
like to keep him involved, to what extent the staff might want to, to
advise us. I personally feel that we probably get ripped off every time
we build something in this City.
MARGETT Well, that's true, Mr. Mayor, and I think that's where Bob Daggett's coming
from. I'm sure that there are architects out there that will build you
a library for $20,000,000. There's no problem doing it. Or ten or eight.
And I think that that's the key in the whole thing. I think what Bob
Daggett wants to be able to do is say, hey, we have $3,000,000, or whatever
we're coming up with, five, or what your budget is, make that thing work
at $5,000,000 and make it look like we're going to spend $20,000,000. And
I think that's what we should be doing.
FASCHING Well, I think we should be taking advantage of this type of expertise and
help that can be furnished to us by one of our commissioners, that's what
they're there for. They're residents that are interested in the City and
the future of it, too. That's why I propose that we settle on this
concept, we're happy with it. We have a budget, we know where the money
is coming from. We tell Daggett and the Librarian this is what we want
to do, and let Daggett put the finishing touches on it so we know, and let
him kind of help us as we want him to in the process of. . . .
MARGETT I think you'll watch your nickels and dimes and have him. . . .
FASCHING . . .soliciting architects and soliciting, when the time comes, to
contractors and everything else.
LOJESKI What's the current status, Jim, of our fund that we could take it away
from.
DALE I just happened to look at that, and I would think that what you're talking
about is probably the Capital Outlay Fund, which has got about $2,032,000,
and the Facility Construction Fund, which has another $3,327,000. So those
two funds are really specifically for. . .
LOJESKI A combination of those things.
HARBICHT A little over $5,000,000.
DALE A little over $5,000,000, right.
FASCHING Well, I would like to do this as best we can so that we could ve some
money left over for some other things that we might want to dL _own the
road.
HARBICHT What did the Community Center cost us, Bill, on a per-square-foot basis,
do you recall?
WOOLARD A little over $200. But because of the materials and detail work that was
a lot higher.
HARBICHT That included the interior, detail, the wood. . . .
WOOLARD Yeah.
HARBICHT And that was a little over $200. And the consultants that we had on the
Library a year or two ago, they're. . . .
ROSS They were over $250, I think. . .$270, I think. You di"ide it by the square
footage, divide $16,000,000 by 59,000.
9
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
FASCHING And then tell him we'd appreciate it, as commissioner, if he'd kind of give
us some advice as we go along on this with some of these outside bids and
everything.
CIRAULO Sounds like a way to go.
HARBICHT Well, I'd like to be more specific than that. I think if we agree on the
concept that we should get going on advertising for proposals for
architect.
LOJESKI I think where Bob can help out is working with the staff in formulating
the RFP.
FASCHING Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
LOJESKI I don't want to see any other extra steps involved. . .I think just go right
into it.
FASCHING Well, that's exactly what I was talking about, using him as a consultant
and working with staff on the deal.
MILLER You want him to be a voluntary consultant on our process?
FASCHING Sure. He's willing to do that. Yeah. So then we'll do that? .
HARBICHT I think that's what we're all saying in different ways.
FASCHING Yeah, right. O.K. Do we have agreement, then, on that?
MARGETT Yeah. What do you need, a motion, Mr. Mayor, or what do you want to do?
CIRAULO I will so move, Mr. Mayor.
MARGETT Second the motion, Mr. Mayor.
MILLER O.K. , that is to go out for RFP's with Mr. Daggett as a volunteering
consultant?
(Several or all Councilmembers answered affirmative.)
HARBICHT Can I just ask a couple of questions for clarification here if, in fact,
this is included in the motion or should be. I think that what we're
approving here is a concept for additions. It seems like we ought to also
be including some cost level that we want to have put into that RFP, it
would be a part of the thing.
CIRAULO Well, we won't know until an architect comes back at us, right?
HARBICHT I think- that, I guess. . . .
CIRAULO You want to give him a ceiling up front, and say not to exceed. . . .
HARBICHT I mean, I think we ought to make some estimate of how much are we willing
to spend? I mean, what if he comes back and he does all these drawings
and everything and we find out it's going to cost us $6,000,000 to add this
stuff, and we say why didn't we build a new building.
MARGETT Well, isn't that part of the process that architects would present to us,
what they think they can do the drawing for?
HARBICHT Dennis was saying, and I agree with him, that we have to say, how much is
this worth to us? At least some general statement of how much we're
willing to spend to do these additions. I mean, I guess I'm saying I would
like to have the architects work within a parameter of approximately three
and a half million dollars, the whole thing. . . .
CIRAULO Three and a half to four million.
Give them a ballpark figure.
11
h
LOJESKI Because if you don't, Bob, what happens? An architect. . .if you give an
architect carte blanche, O.K. , an architect who, let's say, has never done
any work in Arcadia with any public buildings. Doesn't know the City,
starts going through the City and says, hey, look at this town, now this
town's got a lot of dough. Look, they just built this Community Center.
They could have saved and used a veneer on the outside of this build-
ing. . .they used a solid block construction.
HARBICHT Well, they'll start looking at some of the houses.
LOJESKI Yeah. Go inside and you see this fancy paneling. So an architect could
say, well, I'll design it and I'll make it look really great and push my
project. And, like Bob says, you're up to a six, seven, eight million
dollar addition.
HARBICHT I guess I would like to see us state that we would, what I'll suggest is,
that we say we're looking at this kind of a concept with satellite
buildings. We're looking to have this thing in the three to three and a
half million dollar range, including tax and license, the whole thing.
MARGETT The furnishings also?
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING Well, I think that one thing here is that from an architectural standpoint
he's not going to bid the interior and all new fixtures.
HARBICHT No, no. All of the stuff that he has--the electrical, the ceilings, doing
the rotunda, a new roof, all of that stuff--we're looking at the whole
package in the range of three to three and a half million.
FASCHING Well, this is why I'd like to have Daggett redefine his figures.
WOOLARD What we can do is, call for RFP's and include some cost parameters and
bring this whole package back to Council.
HARBICHT And I think we need to tell you what we're looking at.
FASCHING Well, let's have Daggett develop the parameters or the figures first. . . .
HARBICHT He already has.
LOJESKI He already has, what more is he going to give us?
FASCHING Well, I'd like to make sure that he agrees on this.
HARBICHT I guess what I'm saying is that if. . .
FASCHING Who's going to bid on the interiors and all the fixtures?
HARBICHT . . .he gets down to sharpening his pencil and says, gee, this really comes
up to $4,000,000, maybe his recommendation would be to not include Building
A or make some modifications.
ROSS One of the things, there's a contingency factor in there, and when you're
working with the interior of the existing building, there are some
unpredictable costs in there, and he actually did go up to $4,000,000 in
my discussions with him. . .anywhere from $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
CIRAULO My guess would be the range would be $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
ROSS That's what he said.
FASCHING Well. . .because of contingencies?
ROSS Yes. See, we wouldn't know for sure until you have a structural engineer
go in there and look since you have to decide what you're going to do with
the building, upgrades and that sort of thing, because it will have to be
seismically upgraded.
12
k,.
City, a business permit, to do these productions. He said he just can't
afford to be putting that out also.
MARGETT How much is that, George?
FASCHING I think it's $200, as I recall.
HARBICHT How much?
FASCHING Two hundred dollars, I think. So he'd like us to waive the City permit
fee since these are sort of a community-oriented type of thing. Although
he does charge $8. And, what, we're giving him two performances. What
is our rent on the other performance?
ROSS It normally is $25 an hour, but a two-hour minimum. So he'd be paying at
least $50.
FASCHING It sounds like a worthwhile program, and it's a cultural thing for the
children in the Library and adults, an activity at the Library. And I told
him I would take this to the Council and see if we would waive the business
license permit.
MARGETT O.K. , for one performance he's going to get approximately $900, is that
right, if he sells it out?
FASCHING Ninety-nine people, yeah.
MARGETT Nine hundred dollars, a little bit less than $900, is that right?
FASCHING Yeah.
MARGETT O.K. What does he have to pay for the. . .does he have to pay something for
the rights to be able to put on the show?
FASCHING I don't know how he reimburses his actors or actresses.
ROSS They're working for nothing.
MARGETT They're working for nothing?
ROSS He may have to pay for some scenery fees, have somebody build some scenery,
that may be a cost.
CIRAULO Didn't they do this over at Holly Avenue School one time years ago?
ROSS I don't recall. I know Sierra Madre has. . .he said he was involved with
that.
FASCHING He started that, the Sierra Madre Little Theater.
HARBICHT Let me ask you a question. Let's say that some piano teacher is going to
have a recital for her 10 students and so she wants to use our room and
ask the students' parents to come and hear the recital and. . .has that
happened, that kind of thing? Is it used for that kind of thing?
ROSS For recitals? Yeah, we use it for piano recitals all the time.
HARBICHT What do we charge?
ROSS In that same range, $25 an hour, $50 minimum. . .2 hours minimum,
HARBICHT What's our justification for not charging this guy? He's charging
admission.
ROSS Well, any time you waive charges it's based on the decision of the Library
Board. I mean, it's stated in the policy that this can be waived at their
discretion.
MILLER Has the Library Board ruled on this?
16
L_.
WOOLARD Well, in this market it's slim.
CIRAULO I guess you don't know. But it's not a bad idea to make them aware of it,
I think, again.
WOOLARD Can this be used outside of the redevelopment area?
KINNAHAN There's two issues. The first one, the program didn't work before because
it was--Donna, correct me--it was not very much of an incentive program.
As the program went along, they began to offer more and more incentives
and give more and more of a rebate, and towards the end of the program it
got very successful. If I recollect, there was a waiting list when the
program finally went out of business. . .there was about two or three that
were in line.
ASSISTANT There were a few. Actually, we offered the same program all along, but
PLANNING DIR. what happened was I think everybody was just very leery of it, they didn't
DONNA BUTLER really understand the project. When we had the earthquake, that was the
greatest incentive that we probably had, the Whittier earthquake. Because
that's when the first, which was the Steerburger, took advantage of the
funding. And from that point, we went down. . .everybody kind of started
asking questions. We had our consultants go individually to each of the
businesses. But that really was the first push. We had a few people
before that that did some minor painting, a couple of signs, but up until
that time it was strictly two or three businesses.
WOOLARD In that downtown area someone at that time did go store to store to inform
the people of the program, gave handouts, and they tried to provide all
the information they could on the thing.
CIRAULO That was within the redevelopment area, though.
WOOLARD It coincidentally was within that area. Outside the redevelopment area
you couldn't use the CDBG funds.
FASCHING What's the possibility of. . .there must be a firm or people that specialize
in modernizing and updated community business districts where they give
you a concept and a plan and street, and buildings, and overall design,
and this type of thing. I'd like to think that we could have somebody that
would come in and look at our City and say this is what you should do here,
and you should do here, and that, and give us an idea of a concept and a
design to follow in all aspects. . . .
HARBICHT We've already done it.
WOOLARD That's what we had in the downtown. . . .
FASCHING Well, where is it? What did they say? Everybody was going to follow a
general plan?
HARBICHT No. As a result of their plan, we established design criteria downtown,
we've got a list of colors, we have a list of materials that you have to
use if you're redesigning anything in the downtown area. We put in new
street furniture, we put in new crosswalks, we put in all new street trees
down there. All of that was a result of those recommendations. And so
we have a design criteria for downtown.
FASCHING Where did we drop the ball?
HARBICHT What do you mean?
FASCHING Well, why does it look like it does?
HARBICHT These are privately owned businesses. You can't force them to. . . .
FASCHING Well, that's what I mean. This is why we're here, is to. . .how do we get
those businesses and what steps can we take to get this job done? And what
will it take?
WOOLARD The next step we had was offering free money to. . . .
19
CIRAULO Well, what I would like to see, is there any way we can expand it beyond
the formal redevelopment area, say on First Avenue, for instance?
KINNAHAN I reviewed that with the Agency attorney, and basically, when you go
outside a project area boundary, you have to show a direct relationship
and benefit to the project area. So if you were to go across the street
from the project area, you can probably say, well, that's probably a
benefit. You start getting a block away. . . .
CIRAULO Are there any (inaudible) that we could use to help those people. . .any
programs available?
KINNAHAN Not through the Redevelopment Agency. As I understand, not the Block Grant
because. . . .
CIRAULO In any other way?
•
KINNAHAN And the only other ones would be through private financing, through a
bank. . .there is. . .that's about it.
HARBICHT There is another one. We could take City funds and make them available.
KINNAHAN Well, I'm not sure. It might get (inaudible) .
LOJESKI When you look in that book there are some outstanding examples of junk and
something that really looks nicer.
HARBICHT There's been tremendous improvements.
LOJESKI Tremendous improvements. . .but they're all downtown.
HARBICHT O.K. , well I was just responding to your suggestion that we hire a
consultant. We've already done it.
FASCHING But he didn't tell us, though, of maybe one concept to follow in the
design. In other words, let's take those little stores on Huntington
between Santa Anita. and First. They all look different. Is there
something we could do to make that whole front of those stores all kind
of tie in to one design and still maintain their individuality, but we have
something that really looks like something for the whole length of the
block instead of somebody here with one thing and somebody with something
else. It gives a whole feeling to the block, is what I'm thinking of, and
then continue it on down to Second Avenue.
MARGETT You mean a continuity of a theme, George?
FASCHING Continuity of a theme.
HARBICHT Sort of a mini-mall look.
FASCHING Jump in here.
MARGETT Well, I'm listening here. You have the microphone.
FASCHING But that's the thing I'm talking about. I think these individuals, where
this guy puts on his style awning and the other guy puts on his style
awning, and we don't have any continuity down that street. I think that
Monrovia accomplished that. . .
HARBICHT They don't have continuity. . . .
FASCHING No, wait a minute. . .through the use of trees and street design they gave
it a concept.
MARGETT Well, I think they did, Bob, down Myrtle Avenue, I think they did give it
a concept, a turn-of-the-century type of look.
FASCHING But they did it with trees and street, Bob. They didn't do it with
storefronts. Well, storefronts are nice, but they don't all look alike.
20
HARBICHT But we did it with trees, too. And crosswalks, the monument signs, the
center divider.
WOOLARD If it wasn't for racetrack traffic you could do a lot more down there, but
we need two lanes in each direction to. . . .
FASCHING Well, there's got to be something we have to do, because it can't stay
looking like that for the next 10 years. 'It looks horrible. Baldwin
Avenue, down there, that big old sign sticking out there in front of
Hinshaw's with all those places on it, I don't think that has much
attractiveness or warmth to that street. I think the best looking street
we've got is Live Oak, with the way it's laid out with the center divider
and the trees and the grass and everything, to a degree. But my feeling
is we've got to :ome up with a feeling for our City that it all ties
together. And we have some trees down on there. . .I was up on Foothill
today, we've got some big trees that need trimming, we've got some little
trees that don't need trimming, and it just doesn't look very representa-
tive of the way our City should look. Maybe we need more tree trimmers.
Donna, you wanted to say something?
BUTLER Well, the only thing I was going to point out was, in talking about. . .Will-
dan was the company that was hired to take a look at the whole entire area.
And as Bob mentioned, one of the things that they were trying to do to tie
the area together. . .because one of the biggest problems down there is you
don't have similarity of design in buildings. They talked about
things. . .they felt that trying to create a theme in the downtown area just
wasn't really a theme you could tie all the buildings into. So what they
tried to do was, at that point in time, they tried to do it by the use of
colors, tying it in with the different types of paving materials, street
furniture, and so forth. Because that was the biggest problem that they
had. And it was presented to the Council, and the Council at the time went
along with the fact that it's very difficult to create a theme that doesn't
exist. I mean, you've got buildings that are so different in design and
style, so that was the use of the colors, the types of materials in the
downtown area, and that's why we adopted the downtown design overlay, which
set forth the specific colors, signing. . .which we're still trying to
encourage the replacement of older signs, but it still hasn't taken place
everywhere. But that was a major discussion. We've got a plan, which is
approximately yea big, that was done at the time they discussed all the
different treatments, what could be done and what couldn't be done and so
forth. We used,Block Grant funds to finance that study, and it's just that
I think it's important. . .you know, we did try to come up with something,
but I think it was felt that this was the best way to tie everything
together was through the use of landscaping. . . .
FASCHING Then I guess maybe what we're looking at here is how do we complete the
program that we came up with.
CIRAULO Well, I'd like to ask, if we can, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to ask Howard, do
you have any feel for how the merchants might feel, Howard, about this
idea, or have you heard anything?
HOWARD LAREW I've mainly heard, in South Arcadia, Joe, that people are not real excited
(PRES. , CH. OF with the storefronts down there. Downtown along Huntington Drive has
COMMERCE) certainly improved over the years, and I have no feel for individual
businesses as to whether they would be willing to put up their own funds
to do it. I think with the economy the way it is, they're all looking for
help. And I think they'd probably be receptive to some kind of a program.
CIRAULO I know I hear occasionally from the people on First Avenue south of
Huntington. But the problem, Pete tells us, that's not even the original
redevelopment area. So that's a whole different kind of an idea. . .a whole
different ballgame.
HARBICHT I think that, with regard to downtown. . .I'm talking about Huntington Drive
when I say downtown. . .a number of businesses took advantages of the Block
Grant program that we have. A number of others have gone ahead and
upgraded their storefronts. We still have some that are left to do. And
I don't think that a theme is feasible. I don't think it's feasible to
say anybody that redoes their storefront has to make it look like a western
21
ROSS Yes. They did say that it would be. . .they would give this approval
contingent upon his obtaining Workers Compensation insurance.
HARBICHT Well, what are we talking about it for, then?
MILLER I was going to say, it's not on the agenda tonight so you can't act on it.
FASCHING Well, we're not. . .I'm just throwing this out to Council.
MILLER Oh, O.K.
WOOLARD From the Council he's looking at us to waive the City fee.
ROSS You're talking about the work permit, which I have no knowledge of.
HARBICHT You mean the business license fee, is that what he's talking about getting
waived?
LOJESKI He's running a business and collects the admission. Why. . . .
HARBICHT Why would we do that?
FASCHING Well, I think the only reason we would think about it is, number one, it
brings a little cultural theater to the Library for the benefit of the
students and adults. I don't know what his expenses are, but I know he
has rehearsals for these plays and things like that. He's going to put
out $1,250 up front to State Fund, he tells me, to acquire the Workman's
Comp. So his attitude was. . .he's very nice about the whole thing, I mean
he's a resident of the City and says that he just doesn't have a whole lot
of money to be putting out on this type of thing. I don't think the guy's
going to get rich on it, myself, but he'll make a few bucks probably. It's
not a big deal. So, I don't know. . .whichever way you gentlemen want to
go. But you have to look at it, is it bringing something of value to the
City even though he is going to get reimbursed on some level for it, but
is it important to the City and the community.
MARGETT I always go back to precedent. In other words, we let this guy do it,
then. . .you know, I can remember here at that last Council meeting somebody
came in and wanted fees waived for putting in a generator for taking
pictures over at the Arboretum, and we said no. I don't know whether or
not you can all of a sudden say, well, yes, we'll allow the show at the
Library, but we're not going to be able to allow somebody to make a few
nickels putting on a production over at the Arboretum. Nobody's cutting
a fat hog, I don't think. But by the same token, I think we better
establish a policy so that if something down the road comes, you're going
to be consistent.
FASCHING We already have a policy. I think we have to decide each one, if we feel
if it's a benefit to the community, and then make the decision. I don't
happen to feel that the generator situation in the Arboretum, making a
commercial film, is of any benefit to the City. But little kids going to
a play at the Library might be a different situation.
HARBICHT Well, we can't make a decision right. . .though I guess I'm not in favor of
waiving the fee.
FASCHING O.K.
MARGETT I wouldn't be either.
FASCHING O.K. I just wanted to get a feeling out of you gentlemen.
2. BUSINESS O.K. We'll go on to the next item on the agenda. . .the business districts.
DISTRICTS - All right. Then the next item is Redevelopment on the business district.
MAYOR FASCHING Prior to that, I'd like to make one little announcement here, which I think
you're all aware of. There is a conference in San Jose on August 6 and
7 concerning downtown revitalization, Main Street prototypes. And I
intend to go to this. This might be of interest to us down the road
concerning our own business district. So I wanted to remind you of that
17
conference. And we have Mr. Larew from our Chamber of Commerce in the
audience. He is available to us for any item we may want to ask
him, on behalf of the Chamber. And I think the main point of this
discussion on business districts is a general feeling--and correct me if
I'm wrong--that we feel that there needs to be something done with our
business districts. The business district on Huntington Drive, the
business district on First Avenue for what's there, but just revitaliza-
tion. Baldwin Avenue falls into this perspective also, as does Live Oak
Avenue down in South Arcadia. And I think that this has been talked back
and forth in years, but nothing really being accomplished in it when we
look at other cities and what they've done with their business districts.
So, with that I'll open it up to general discussion. Mr. Harbicht.
HARBICHT Well, we've got this memo dated 6/10 on things that have been done, can
be done, and the one thing I see missing from here is this ^rogram that
we've had for redoing the facades of businesses in the downy .in area.
WOOLARD We've put together a book of before and afters. Some of these .11 be done
with a funding program that we had through the Block Grant Program. The
others were done individually.
CIRAULO Do we still have that program available? It was, what, a 50-50 thing, is
that how it worked?
WOOLARD _ It's still possible, but it's questionable as to the value of it at this
point.
HARBICHT How many did we do, or were done, under that program?
WOOLARD We did. . .about 16 or so places got some funds. Some were complete facade
removals and others were just for signs and awnings. So some were major
things and others were minor. The problem is that the amount of funding
that you now have to devote to your person of low-moderate income, that
percentage has increased. So the amount of money that would be available
for this program is substantially reduced. The fact that you have to go
through Mavis Bacon for the contractors and stuff makes it difficult to
find somebody, and the administration costs of monitoring all of their
employees and everything else makes it not a very cost-effective program.
But there are other ways the same types of things can be funded. Loans
through redevelopment agencies rather than just loans for other types of
(inaudible) might be available rather than the Block Grants. They're not
as constrained as the Block Grants were. Maybe it will have some. . . .
KINNAHAN In your package that Bob referred to, number seven refers to information
on a possible agency pilot commercial investor rebate loan program. That
deals exactly with picking up where the CDBG program left off. Where the
Redevelopment Agency could, in the downtown, finance a rehab commercial
loan program, or a grant program, (inaudible) program. We've done some
initial research into programs offered through other cities and other
agencies. We've researched the downtown as to the possible need for such.
The need is there. The program exists in other communities. We have funds
available in Arcadia to create such a program if the Agency wants it, in
this case the Agency. We can certainly come back to you with a clear
program concept where we can attack the small problem like signs. We can
probably create an architectural incentive program where there's two or
three architects who can assist a business. We help to pay for it, to
encourage them to take advantage of our design criteria, and then we can
also provide the rebate loan, the rebate to them to do the work. And it's
being modeled very much on the CDBG program.
CIRAULO Well, I like that whole idea.
HARBICHT Yeah, but we've already done it.
KINNAHAN We have, but there's quite a few more to do. We're not done yet.
CIRAULO There's a lot more to do.
HARBICHT The others didn't move when we offered it before. What's the probability
that they would move if we offered it again?
18
L_.
WOOLARD Well, in this market it's slim.
CIRAULO I guess you don't know. But it's not a bad idea to make them aware of it,
I think, again.
WOOLARD Can this be used outside of the redevelopment area?
KINNAHAN There's two issues. The first one, the program didn't work before because
it was--Donna, correct me--it was not very much of an incentive program.
As the program went along, they began to offer more and more incentives
and give more and more of a rebate, and towards the end of the program it
got very successful. If I recollect, there was a waiting list when the
program finally went out of business. . .there was about two or three that
were in line.
ASSISTANT There were a few. Actually, we offered the same program all along, but
PLANNING DIR. what happened was I think everybody was just very leery of it, they didn't
DONNA BUTLER really understand the project. When we had the earthquake, that was the
greatest incentive that we probably had, the Whittier earthquake. Because
that's when the first, which was the Steerburger, took advantage of the
funding. And from that point, we went down. . .everybody kind of started
asking questions. We had our consultants go individually to each of the
businesses. But that really was the first push. We had a few people
before that that did some minor painting, a couple of signs, but up until
that time it was strictly two or three businesses.
WOOLARD In that downtown area someone at that time did go store to store to inform
the people of the program, gave handouts, and they tried to provide all
the information they could on the thing.
CIRAULO That was within the redevelopment area, though.
WOOLARD It coincidentally was within that area. Outside the redevelopment area
you couldn't use the CDBG funds.
FASCHING What's the possibility of. . .there must be a firm or people that specialize
in modernizing and updated community business districts where they give
you a concept and a plan and street, and buildings, and overall design,
and this type of thing. I'd like to think that we could have somebody that
would come in and look at our City and say this is what you should do here,
and you should do here, and that, and give us an idea of a concept and a
design to follow in all aspects. . . .
HARBICHT We've already done it.
WOOLARD That's what we had in the downtown. . . .
FASCHING Well, where is it? What did they say? Everybody was going to follow a
general plan?
HARBICHT No. As a result of their plan, we established design criteria downtown,
we've got a list of colors, we have a list of materials that you have to
use if you're redesigning anything in the downtown area. We put in new
street furniture, we put in new crosswalks, we put in all new street trees
down there. All of that was a result of those recommendations. And so
we have a design criteria for downtown.
FASCHING Where did we drop the ball?
HARBICHT What do you mean?
FASCHING Well, why does it look like it does?
HARBICHT These are privately owned businesses. You can't force them to. . . .
FASCHING Well, that's what I mean. This is why we're here, is to. . .how do we get
those businesses and what steps can we take to get this job done? And what
will it take?
WOOLARD The next step we had was offering free money to. . . .
19
CIRAULO Well, what I would like to see, is there any way we can expand it beyond
the formal redevelopment area, say on First Avenue, for instance?
KINNAHAN I reviewed that with the Agency attorney, and basically, when you go
outside a project area boundary, you have to show a direct relationship
and benefit to the project area. So if you were to go across the street
from the project area, you can probably say, well, that's probably a
benefit. You start getting a block away. . . .
CIRAULO Are there any (inaudible) that we could use to help those people. . .any
programs available?
KINNAHAN Not through the Redevelopment Agency. As I understand, not the Block Grant
because. . . .
CIRAULO In any other way?
•
KINNAHAN And the only other ones would be through private financing, through a
bank. . .there is. . .that's about it.
HARBICHT There is another one. We could take City funds and make them available.
KINNAHAN Well, I'm not sure. It might get (inaudible) .
LOJESKI When you look in that book there are some outstanding examples of junk and
something that really looks nicer.
HARBICHT There's been tremendous improvements.
LOJESKI Tremendous improvements. . .but they're all downtown.
HARBICHT O.K. , well I was just responding to your suggestion that we hire a
consultant. We've already done it.
FASCHING But he didn't tell us, though, of maybe one concept to follow in the
design. In other words, let's take those little stores on Huntington
between Santa Anita. and First. They all look different. Is there
something we could do to make that whole front of those stores all kind
of tie in to one design and still maintain their individuality, but we have
something that really looks like something for the whole length of the
block instead of somebody here with one thing and somebody with something
else. It gives a whole feeling to the block, is what I'm thinking of, and
then continue it on down to Second Avenue.
MARGETT You mean a continuity of a theme, George?
FASCHING Continuity of a theme.
HARBICHT Sort of a mini-mall look.
FASCHING Jump in here.
MARGETT Well, I'm listening here. You have the microphone.
FASCHING But that's the thing I'm talking about. I think these individuals, where
this guy puts on his style awning and the other guy puts on his style
awning, and we don't have any continuity down that street. I think that
Monrovia accomplished that. . .
HARBICHT They don't have continuity. . . .
FASCHING No, wait a minute. . .through the use of trees and street design they gave
it a concept.
MARGETT Well, I think they did, Bob, down Myrtle Avenue, I think they did give it
a concept, a turn-of-the-century type of look.
FASCHING But they did it with trees and street, Bob. They didn't do it with
storefronts. Well, storefronts are nice, but they don't all look alike.
20
HARBICHT But we did it with trees, too. And crosswalks, the monument signs, the
center divider.
WOOLARD If it wasn't for racetrack traffic you could do a lot more down there, but
we need two lanes in each direction to. . . .
FASCHING Well, there's got to be something we have to do, because it can't stay
looking like that for the next 10 years. 'It looks horrible. Baldwin
Avenue, down there, that big old sign sticking out there in front of
Hinshaw's with all those places on it, I don't think that has much
attractiveness or warmth to that street. I think the best looking street
we've got is Live Oak, with the way it's laid out with the center divider
and the trees and the grass and everything, to a degree. But my feeling
is we've got to :ome up with a feeling for our City that it all ties
together. And we have some trees down on there. . .I was up on Foothill
today, we've got some big trees that need trimming, we've got some little
trees that don't need trimming, and it just doesn't look very representa-
tive of the way our City should look. Maybe we need more tree trimmers.
Donna, you wanted to say something?
BUTLER Well, the only thing I was going to point out was, in talking about. . .Will-
dan was the company that was hired to take a look at the whole entire area.
And as Bob mentioned, one of the things that they were trying to do to tie
the area together. . .because one of the biggest problems down there is you
don't have similarity of design in buildings. They talked about
things. . .they felt that trying to create a theme in the downtown area just
wasn't really a theme you could tie all the buildings into. So what they
tried to do was, at that point in time, they tried to do it by the use of
colors, tying it in with the different types of paving materials, street
furniture, and so forth. Because that was the biggest problem that they
had. And it was presented to the Council, and the Council at the time went
along with the fact that it's very difficult to create a theme that doesn't
exist. I mean, you've got buildings that are so different in design and
style, so that was the use of the colors, the types of materials in the
downtown area, and that's why we adopted the downtown design overlay, which
set forth the specific colors, signing. . .which we're still trying to
encourage the replacement of older signs, but it still hasn't taken place
everywhere. But that was a major discussion. We've got a plan, which is
approximately yea big, that was done at the time they discussed all the
different treatments, what could be done and what couldn't be done and so
forth. We used,Block Grant funds to finance that study, and it's just that
I think it's important. . .you know, we did try to come up with something,
but I think it was felt that this was the best way to tie everything
together was through the use of landscaping. . . .
FASCHING Then I guess maybe what we're looking at here is how do we complete the
program that we came up with.
CIRAULO Well, I'd like to ask, if we can, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to ask Howard, do
you have any feel for how the merchants might feel, Howard, about this
idea, or have you heard anything?
HOWARD LAREW I've mainly heard, in South Arcadia, Joe, that people are not real excited
(PRES. , CH. OF with the storefronts down there. Downtown along Huntington Drive has
COMMERCE) certainly improved over the years, and I have no feel for individual
businesses as to whether they would be willing to put up their own funds
to do it. I think with the economy the way it is, they're all looking for
help. And I think they'd probably be receptive to some kind of a program.
CIRAULO I know I hear occasionally from the people on First Avenue south of
Huntington. But the problem, Pete tells us, that's not even the original
redevelopment area. So that's a whole different kind of an idea. . .a whole
different ballgame.
HARBICHT I think that, with regard to downtown. . .I'm talking about Huntington Drive
when I say downtown. . .a number of businesses took advantages of the Block
Grant program that we have. A number of others have gone ahead and
upgraded their storefronts. We still have some that are left to do. And
I don't think that a theme is feasible. I don't think it's feasible to
say anybody that redoes their storefront has to make it look like a western
21
saloon, or whatever we decide is the theme. I just don't think that's
feasible because we're having a hard enough time just getting the majority
of them to redo their fronts. I mean, it's taken us years. But I think
the best that we can realistically shoot for is to try to get some of those
other ones that are in pretty bad shape to redo their storefronts within
the color and materials guidelines that we have in force down there, which
they would have to use if they do redo it. So the real question is, how
can we get them to do it? And it sounds to me that maybe using some
redevelopment funds and putting a priority on that in that we ask that some
significant amount of staff time be invested in contacting people, saying
the City is willing to put up this much money, or whatever, to help you
do this. And I think the possibility of maybe having two or three
architects who are tuned into the program, and we could say if you'll
contact one of these people, or we'll have one of them contact you, is the
only way we're going to accomplish it. Because we've got all kinds of
absentee owners down there who don't see it. . . .
FASCHING Well, I agree with what you're saying. I think. . .probably a concept we'd
like to see, but I think maybe it might be well for us to concentrate on
what we can do. In other words, what we can do with our streets, what we
can do with our landscaping and our trees, to make it much more desirable.
Then we go. . . .
•
HARBICHT Like what?
FASCHING Well, I don't know, but we can certainly. . . .
HARBICHT We put in all new street trees three or four years ago. . .
FASCHING Well, maybe there's some more we can do, I don't know.
HARBICHT . . .we redid the railroad bridge, we got the center divider, and we put in
crosswalks. I don't know what's left.
FASCHING Well, O.K. It's always good. . .we can still take another look at it from
that standpoint. That's what we can do. What we can't do is come up with
a theme or this other thing. But to try to make available to these
business owners what we can to rehabilitate their storefronts, and if they
don't want to do it then what do we have, as a body, that we can do by
resolution to make them. . .force them to get into a. . . .
HARBICHT Force them to do it?
FASCHING Well, I don't know, maybe condemn their property. . .they're in a
redevelopment area.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, you know, I talked to a realtor, a prominent realtor in town,
and we were talking much in the same vein that the Council is talking right
now. She said that invariably the owners or the tenants that are in these
small stores really don't want anything more to be done on the front of
those stores, because invariably then the landlord wants to raise rents
and they cannot afford rents. . .now this is what she said. She said that
there's nothing that would really induce. . .and what you need on Huntington
Drive, if we're still talking Huntington Drive, is something that would
induce foot traffic on Huntington Drive. There's nobody that wants to park
over in back of Jimmy Chin's building or in front of the post office and
walk across the street and walk up and down Huntington Drive to be able
to buy something. There's just not that inducement. I was thinking just ,
the other day. . .and I don't know whether staff has had any consideration
about this. . .but we've got, apparently, a post office that's going to be
torn down and refurbished. I think there's a ton of foot traffic in front
of that post office. I don't know whether we should not consider
putting. . .
[End of Tape 1 - Side 2, beginning of Tape 2 - Side 1]
. . .stuff money into it and let's get block grants, let's get. . .and so on
and so forth. . .and we might be just trying to chase a dead horse. It might
22
11
very well be that that area has purely lost it's economic use for that
area. It just may not be. . . .
Why?
HARGETT . . .where it is. And that's a natural transition that's taken place.
FASCHING Well, what do you do with it then?
CIRAULO With a lack of parking, that could very well be.
FASCHING What do we do with it?
LOJESKI That's your whole key. The whole key to the situation, George. Look at
the north side versus the south side.
MARGETT You say what do you do with it. . .excuse me, Dennis, I cut you off. I
didn't mean to.
LOJESKI No, I interrupted you. But I'm just saying, look at the north side versus
the south side of the street between First Avenue and Santa Anita. I look
at it every day. The north side has plenty of traffic. Why? Why do the
storefronts look better? Why do you have businesses proliferating on that
side? You've got parking for the customers. The minute you take parking ,
away, such as you have done, or there's a lack of 'it. . .we haven't
done. . .but that's the way the area developed. The businesses are in
shambles on the south side of the street.
MARGETT Well, see, staff will tell you that there's sufficient parking in the area
to be able to take care of both,the north and south sides.
LOJESKI Gockley's is gone because Gockley's, first of all, had two parking spaces
behind their store and people couldn't come in there. They couldn't
function.
FASCHING Gockley's, I think, was a result of being gobbled up by people that. . .all
the wholesale stationery stores.
LOJESKI But that's the value of retail business today. You have to make yourself
available to the customer. If the customer is going to come into a mama
and poppa area, there's got to be incentive. And if you can't park right
there. . .you know, a signal, a better situation for that intersection of
Huntington and First was put in. . .what did it do? It took parking spaces
away on the street. There was no additional parking to the poor businesses
on the west side of the street, and that stationery store went under. In
other words, it was just another thing that happened down there.
FASCHING Then I guess we can throw First Avenue into the same category. Maybe it's
beyond it's, commercial use.
LOJESKI I don't know. It's all in the redevelopment area.
FASCHING I come back to the question, what do we do with it? Just let it sit?
HARGETT No.
FASCHING What?
LOJESKI I think you've given incentives to the people in that area, much more than
we've ever been able to give, than we've ever done in West Arcadia, South
Arcadia, Foothill Boulevard. We haven't gotten into any assistance
programs up in those areas.
MARGETT We can't do everything. In other words, if it's true what you said, that
we have provided all those incentives, City government, local government,
has been able to provide those incentives and we've gone the extra mile
and we've had the staff reports and we've had the consultants go ahead and
look at those areas and still things haven't clicked, then I would say that
it could very well be that we've lost our use. for that land. When you find
condominiums coming right back up to the developments that are all on the
23
south side of Huntington Drive, you're not going to go in there and lay
those waste and build more parking area, I don't think. And I would say
that it may very well be, Mr. Mayor, to be able to. . .and I'm sure that a
feasibility study as to what that area should be may be just what you want
to do.
LOJESKI The Willdan study did that. The Willdan study addressed the south side
of Huntington Drive and said if it's going to remain in the long-range plan
of things a business commercial area, there has to be parking created.
And their recommendation was to take the north side of Alta Street and
devote that to parking. So you've got now developable sites, O.K.? You've
got the availability, hypothetically, of AT&T to come in, let's say, and
build a three-story building. . . .
FASCHING Where?
LOJESKI On Huntington Drive, let's say.
FASCHING Between First and Santa Anita?
LOJESKI Could be. Could be. You've got an anchor on one side which is a bank,
George, O.K.? It's the only decent building, I think, in that whole block.
FASCHING Home Savings?
LOJESKI Sure.
MARGETT And they're short of parking.
LOJESKI Not really.
HARGETT Well, their parking is across the street. . .is that what somebody's going
to do to cash their. . . .
LOJESKI No, but that's my point, O.K.? If you cannot go to a mama and poppa store,
then what's the incentive to go there? You're going to go to a mall,
you're going to go to Monrovia, or wherever is convenient.
MARGETT But what I'm saying, the next step, if we're going to generate parking,
where are you going to generate it? Go in there and lay waste some of
those condominiums that are brand new?
LOJESKI From between First and Second, you're stuck. Between Santa Anita and First
Avenue you're not stuck. By that I'm saying just by the age of the
structures.
HARBICHT Yeah, but you're stuck from a cost standpoint.
LOJESKI Sure. No doubt about it. I'm just saying we have a study that was done.
If I'm wrong Bill, that was one of three studies over the last 25 years,
I think, that's been done. They have all addressed the south side of
Huntington Drive in that very direct (inaudible) .
MARGETT In other words, does that study say that that is a viable economic entity
on the south side of Huntington Drive, we can really make some money there
if we provide parking?
LOJESKI If you have parking.
FASCHING Well, I doubt that very much.
MARGETT So do I.
LOJESKI George, it's undevelopable from a retail standpoint. . . .
FASCHING We already have all this development land out there that we want to develop
anyway. What we want to do is clean up the looks of the business district.
We don't have the parking, they're stuck there. And if we don't clean them
up, we don't have the parking, what are we going to do with them?
24
( )
HARBICHT I think we've got two different things here we're talking about. One is
parking, that's a whole separate issue. And if we want to take that
up. . .there's no question that parking would help the viability of that
area. But the cost of providing that parking is so astronomical that I
don't think that. . . .
FASCHING Plus the cost of relocating all those tenants and the (inaudible) . It's
not even in the ballpark.
HARBICHT The second issue is to say, what can we do to clean up that area, to get
the rest of it looking nice. And I guess I come back to what I said
before, is I think that I would be willing to entertain the idea of using,
maybe, some redevelopment money and putting together a program much like
we had before but maybe with a little less red tape. But basically, what
you're going to be doing when you cut it all away is you're saying to the
owner, "If you'll spend $30,000 fixing up the front of this building, we'll
pay for $15,000 of it." That's what it'comes down to.
FASCHING But you know what? It wouldn't cost him $30,000.
HARBICHT I just use that as an example. I don't know what it would cost.
FASCHING They don't want to spend five grand.
HARBICHT But I specifically reject the idea that we say, "Well, if you won't do it
voluntarily, somehow we're going to make you do it." Because I won't vote
to do that. I don't know if it's possible, but if it was, I wouldn't vote
to do it.
CIRAULO They're all doing so poorly, I just don't think they have the money to. . . .
FASCHING Who's they? Not the property owners, the guys renting the buildings are
doing poorly.
CIRAULO Yeah, the businesses that are there.
FASCHING The guys that own the property paid for it a long time ago.
CIRAULO He doesn't care.
FASCHING It's all lint in his pocket.
CIRAULO I'm talking about the poor little business guy who's there.
FASCHING That's right. So then our City slinks along with these businesses looking
like heck on Huntington Drive. The property owner puts all that paid-off
building money in his pocket. And we can end up with people doing pawn
shops with gates on the front and all that type of stuff.
MARGETT We're getting back to the thesis that I put out on the table, Mr. Mayor.
Maybe you have lost that use of that property.
FASCHING O.K. , then I'll pose this question to you--what are we going to do with
it?
MARGETT O.K. , well, we're going full circle here. If that is viable, if we know
for sure that we can make things click down there by providing Block Grant
funds or similar programs, I would be in favor of that. But there's no
sense in going in there and giving a Block Grant-type program and still
have people worried that their rental rates are going to go up. And we
haven't really generated any of the income or the tax that we can get to
substantiate spending the money.
CIRAULO See, I think they're going to get even less traffic and do less business
once Nordstrom's moves in and the mall has got a whole new thing.
FASCHING I think we should go on to the next subject. . .we'll never come to a. . . .
CIRAULO Well, I know, but what do we do with it?
25
-p.
CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
1
K
I.y
to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
2
4.'k
Y�
ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
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HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
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E D I T E D
TRANS C R I P T
(Insofar as decipherable)
RELATING TO
ARCADIA CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION
JUNE 24, 1992
Ai a
, 14. 1
, 2)5 /1
-p.
CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
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to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
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ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
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FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
to it, however, another one which is potentially unknown as far as its
impact. They just simply say that they might want to require that
agencies would receive in tax increment only what they've legally
contracted for. In our case, we have bonded indebtedness, that's $330,000
a year. Well, the rest of it is often pay as you go. We pay as we go.
They would sort of take that away. They would simply give us in tax
increment $330,000 because that's contractually established.
•
50
1 - TTh
1
FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
4
LOJESKI Hasn't Kent looked at this. . . .
FASCHING You're bringing up a lot of other questions. You say you want to be
guaranteed the extra square feet will be good for another 25 years, and
all those things.
LOJESKI I didn't use the word guarantee. I want to be assured that what we're
talking is going to be usable for the next period of time.
ROSS It's 10 years that I said would be the absolute guarantee that would. . .the
capacity would be guaranteed for that time. Beyond that it's difficult
to tell, the changes that could occur. Certainly, when we do this it would
be a 25-year building. But it could be at capacity in 10 years.
CIRAULO And what might extend that, too, is. . .I understand it's just preliminary
at this point, but I understand the School District is having some
preliminary discussions about some way to access the Library by way of
computer and keep most of the students at the school.
ROSS They already do. They do access the Library by computer, but actually what
that does is tell them what we have so they know that we have it before
they come over. And that's primarily the way it's used now. They
originally wanted a retrieval system, and then they couldn't afford the
people to come and retrieve the items at the time because of their budget.
But they still have access to our collection by computer.
CIRAULO They have that now?
ROSS They have that now.
HARBICHT Well, some comments that I have on this is, one, the question of where the
money is going to come from. I think this is why we have to prioritize
our capital improvements. We have the Capital Improvements Budget, we have
money in it, we have receipts going into it from the Track and the other
monies that we're putting into that. So if we decide that we're going to
build this Library, or build this addition to the Library, the money is
available in the Capital Improvements Fund. That's what the Capital
Improvements Fund is for. And if that takes up most of the money there,
then any other capital improvements that we want, such as an auditorium,
whatever, are just going to have to be put off two or three years until
we build it up to the point where we can do it. That's the way we've
always done it in this City. And I guess I'll express the opinion that,
in my mind, this is the number one priority. And so I would be in favor
of using the Capital Improvements Funds for doing the Library. I guess
the question of how long the Library is going. . .how long this would
last. . .Kent, I'm going to argue with you a little bit on this. I don't
know why it would only last for 10 years. I don't think we foresee any
significant population growth here in Arcadia. As a matter of fact, the
consultants' report that we had visualized almost no growth.
ROSS Well, I didn't say it wouldn't last more than 10 years; I said I couldn't
guarantee it. I could absolutely guarantee that it would certainly have
sufficient space for growth up to 10 years. After that, there are a lot
of things we don't know, as I explained, I think, the last time. . .particul-
ar, say, reference volumes that were only two volumes at one time are now
10, 15, and they've grown by 10 times. But we're still required to have
those. So the same thing, to serve the community in this much space 10
years ago now takes several shelves.
HARBICHT I understand that. I guess I'm thinking in terms of, you know, one of the
things that would have the greatest influence on the size of the Library
needed is the number of people using it. I think the number of people
using it is pretty closely tied to population growth. And so I don't
visualize a huge increase in the number of people using it. In regard to
the reference volumes, that's true and I know that the amount of
information in the world is constantly expanding and we seem to be putting
more of it on our shelves. But it could be, and I think it's very likely,
that 10 or 15 years from now an awful lot of that is going to be on laser
disk and you're not even going to have those volumes. . .you're just going
to pop a laser disk in and read what you want, and print out the part you
7
� t
want. Which means that actually there would be a shrinking demand for
space there. But I guess in my mind. . .Dennis asked the question, how long
would this be good for. I'm fairly convinced that this kind of an
expansion is going to be good for more than 10 years, and I don't think
20 years. . .my guess, and I'm not a library expert, but my guess just based
on what I see in trends is I think we're pretty safe in saying that if we
were to do this it's going to serve the needs of Arcadia for 20 years.
CIRAULO Well, that's a good question to ask. How much extra space do we need to
last us for 25 years?
HARBICHT Because if it was only going to be 10 years, I'd be pretty reluctant to
do this. If I thought 10 years from now we were going to have to tear
everything down and build a new Library, I might say maybe we ought to just
struggle along with what we've got for three more and save up the money
and then build a brand new Library. So, that's my feeling.
FASCHING I feel that it's going to last us for 20, 25 years. The one we have was '
conceivably out of space 20 years ago, and we've been using that for 20
years since then.
•
[End of Tape 1 - Side 1, beginning of Tape 1 - side 2]
HARBICHT . . .in terms of making a decision as to whether or not we should do this
is how much it's going to cost. Now, we have a cost estimate here that
I think Bob Daggett gave us, but we also have the cost estimate for the
new building, which the consultants gave us a year or so ago, two years
ago maybe, and some of their unit costs are particularly high. And so I
don't know if they're high estimators or Bob's a low estimator, or if the
truth lies somewhere in the middle, but we're talking significant
difference in estimated costs.
ROSS I spoke to Bob Daggett on that issue and we discussed it at length. And
using the same criteria that he used for this plan, it was his feeling that
that same building, even nearly 60,000 square feet, would be under
$8,000,000. He gave a number of reasons why he felt that buildings were
overbuilt or built way above cost. And I think he may have mentioned some
of them in the last study session. But that was his feeling, and that's
the way he's based this cost. So if you were comparing this to a new
building, you'd have to use the same criteria, and based on that criteria,
his criteria would be about $7,500,000 for the facility recommended
originally by. . . .
HARBICHT Well, the shell or the whole ball of wax?
ROSS The whole thing, he said. That's what I kept asking him, I said does this
include fees and everything? He said yes.
HARBICHT And interior?
CIRAULO As opposed to this recommended idea, which is about $2.3 million, right?
ROSS Well, this whole thing, though, this whole thing is $3.5 million.
CIRAULO Three point five.
WOOLARD I think what Kent was comparing was that the plan for a new Library was
like, $16,000,000. The same numbers applied from Daggett's figures, the
new Library would only cost $7,500,000 to $8,000,000. So there's quite
a large difference. But a lot of it may have to do with materials and
other details that Bob has a different image of than the other people who
may have been, let's say, going with a Cadillac. I really don't think
you're going to have a handle on it until you actually have an architect
getting down to the more. . . .
CIRAULO Well, it seems to me that t?-at's what we need to do next, is to have an
architect look at. . .we all seem to like this concept. . .have an architect
put pencil to paper and come back to us.
8
FASCHING Well, we have to advertise for an architect.
CIRAULO Well, go out to bid, I guess.
WOOLARD Daggett can still help us a lot if he wants to volunteer.
FASCHING Well, I think he'd be perfectly willing to volunteer to help out on this
thing even though he can't bid on it. But I think he's involved himself
on a volunteer basis with us, which I think is great, and I would certainly
like to keep him involved, to what extent the staff might want to, to
advise us. I personally feel that we probably get ripped off every time
we build something in this City.
MARGETT Well, that's true, Mr. Mayor, and I think that's where Bob Daggett's coming
from. I'm sure that there are architects out there that will build you
a library for $20,000,000. There's no problem doing it. Or ten or eight.
And I think that that's the key in the whole thing. I think what Bob
Daggett wants to be able to do is say, hey, we have $3,000,000, or whatever
we're coming up with, five, or what your budget is, make that thing work
at $5,000,000 and make it look like we're going to spend $20,000,000. And
I think that's what we should be doing.
FASCHING Well, I think we should be taking advantage of this type of expertise and
help that can be furnished to us by one of our commissioners, that's what
they're there for. They're residents that are interested in the City and
the future of it, too. That's why I propose that we settle on this
concept, we're happy with it. We have a budget, we know where the money
is coming from. We tell Daggett and the Librarian this is what we want
to do, and let Daggett put the finishing touches on it so we know, and let
him kind of help us as we want him to in the process of. . . .
MARGETT I think you'll watch your nickels and dimes and have him. . . .
FASCHING . . .soliciting architects and soliciting, when the time comes, to
contractors and everything else.
LOJESKI What's the current status, Jim, of our fund that we could take it away
from.
DALE I just happened to look at that, and I would think that what you're talking
about is probably the Capital Outlay Fund, which has got about $2,032,000,
and the Facility Construction Fund, which has another $3,327,000. So those
two funds are really specifically for. . .
LOJESKI A combination of those things.
HARBICHT A little over $5,000,000.
DALE A little over $5,000,000, right.
FASCHING Well, I would like to do this as best we can so that we could ve some
money left over for some other things that we might want to dL _own the
road.
HARBICHT What did the Community Center cost us, Bill, on a per-square-foot basis,
do you recall?
WOOLARD A little over $200. But because of the materials and detail work that was
a lot higher.
HARBICHT That included the interior, detail, the wood. . . .
WOOLARD Yeah.
HARBICHT And that was a little over $200. And the consultants that we had on the
Library a year or two ago, they're. . . .
ROSS They were over $250, I think. . .$270, I think. You di"ide it by the square
footage, divide $16,000,000 by 59,000.
9
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
FASCHING And then tell him we'd appreciate it, as commissioner, if he'd kind of give
us some advice as we go along on this with some of these outside bids and
everything.
CIRAULO Sounds like a way to go.
HARBICHT Well, I'd like to be more specific than that. I think if we agree on the
concept that we should get going on advertising for proposals for
architect.
LOJESKI I think where Bob can help out is working with the staff in formulating
the RFP.
FASCHING Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
LOJESKI I don't want to see any other extra steps involved. . .I think just go right
into it.
FASCHING Well, that's exactly what I was talking about, using him as a consultant
and working with staff on the deal.
MILLER You want him to be a voluntary consultant on our process?
FASCHING Sure. He's willing to do that. Yeah. So then we'll do that? .
HARBICHT I think that's what we're all saying in different ways.
FASCHING Yeah, right. O.K. Do we have agreement, then, on that?
MARGETT Yeah. What do you need, a motion, Mr. Mayor, or what do you want to do?
CIRAULO I will so move, Mr. Mayor.
MARGETT Second the motion, Mr. Mayor.
MILLER O.K. , that is to go out for RFP's with Mr. Daggett as a volunteering
consultant?
(Several or all Councilmembers answered affirmative.)
HARBICHT Can I just ask a couple of questions for clarification here if, in fact,
this is included in the motion or should be. I think that what we're
approving here is a concept for additions. It seems like we ought to also
be including some cost level that we want to have put into that RFP, it
would be a part of the thing.
CIRAULO Well, we won't know until an architect comes back at us, right?
HARBICHT I think- that, I guess. . . .
CIRAULO You want to give him a ceiling up front, and say not to exceed. . . .
HARBICHT I mean, I think we ought to make some estimate of how much are we willing
to spend? I mean, what if he comes back and he does all these drawings
and everything and we find out it's going to cost us $6,000,000 to add this
stuff, and we say why didn't we build a new building.
MARGETT Well, isn't that part of the process that architects would present to us,
what they think they can do the drawing for?
HARBICHT Dennis was saying, and I agree with him, that we have to say, how much is
this worth to us? At least some general statement of how much we're
willing to spend to do these additions. I mean, I guess I'm saying I would
like to have the architects work within a parameter of approximately three
and a half million dollars, the whole thing. . . .
CIRAULO Three and a half to four million.
Give them a ballpark figure.
11
h
LOJESKI Because if you don't, Bob, what happens? An architect. . .if you give an
architect carte blanche, O.K. , an architect who, let's say, has never done
any work in Arcadia with any public buildings. Doesn't know the City,
starts going through the City and says, hey, look at this town, now this
town's got a lot of dough. Look, they just built this Community Center.
They could have saved and used a veneer on the outside of this build-
ing. . .they used a solid block construction.
HARBICHT Well, they'll start looking at some of the houses.
LOJESKI Yeah. Go inside and you see this fancy paneling. So an architect could
say, well, I'll design it and I'll make it look really great and push my
project. And, like Bob says, you're up to a six, seven, eight million
dollar addition.
HARBICHT I guess I would like to see us state that we would, what I'll suggest is,
that we say we're looking at this kind of a concept with satellite
buildings. We're looking to have this thing in the three to three and a
half million dollar range, including tax and license, the whole thing.
MARGETT The furnishings also?
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING Well, I think that one thing here is that from an architectural standpoint
he's not going to bid the interior and all new fixtures.
HARBICHT No, no. All of the stuff that he has--the electrical, the ceilings, doing
the rotunda, a new roof, all of that stuff--we're looking at the whole
package in the range of three to three and a half million.
FASCHING Well, this is why I'd like to have Daggett redefine his figures.
WOOLARD What we can do is, call for RFP's and include some cost parameters and
bring this whole package back to Council.
HARBICHT And I think we need to tell you what we're looking at.
FASCHING Well, let's have Daggett develop the parameters or the figures first. . . .
HARBICHT He already has.
LOJESKI He already has, what more is he going to give us?
FASCHING Well, I'd like to make sure that he agrees on this.
HARBICHT I guess what I'm saying is that if. . .
FASCHING Who's going to bid on the interiors and all the fixtures?
HARBICHT . . .he gets down to sharpening his pencil and says, gee, this really comes
up to $4,000,000, maybe his recommendation would be to not include Building
A or make some modifications.
ROSS One of the things, there's a contingency factor in there, and when you're
working with the interior of the existing building, there are some
unpredictable costs in there, and he actually did go up to $4,000,000 in
my discussions with him. . .anywhere from $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
CIRAULO My guess would be the range would be $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
ROSS That's what he said.
FASCHING Well. . .because of contingencies?
ROSS Yes. See, we wouldn't know for sure until you have a structural engineer
go in there and look since you have to decide what you're going to do with
the building, upgrades and that sort of thing, because it will have to be
seismically upgraded.
12
k,.
City, a business permit, to do these productions. He said he just can't
afford to be putting that out also.
MARGETT How much is that, George?
FASCHING I think it's $200, as I recall.
HARBICHT How much?
FASCHING Two hundred dollars, I think. So he'd like us to waive the City permit
fee since these are sort of a community-oriented type of thing. Although
he does charge $8. And, what, we're giving him two performances. What
is our rent on the other performance?
ROSS It normally is $25 an hour, but a two-hour minimum. So he'd be paying at
least $50.
FASCHING It sounds like a worthwhile program, and it's a cultural thing for the
children in the Library and adults, an activity at the Library. And I told
him I would take this to the Council and see if we would waive the business
license permit.
MARGETT O.K. , for one performance he's going to get approximately $900, is that
right, if he sells it out?
FASCHING Ninety-nine people, yeah.
MARGETT Nine hundred dollars, a little bit less than $900, is that right?
FASCHING Yeah.
MARGETT O.K. What does he have to pay for the. . .does he have to pay something for
the rights to be able to put on the show?
FASCHING I don't know how he reimburses his actors or actresses.
ROSS They're working for nothing.
MARGETT They're working for nothing?
ROSS He may have to pay for some scenery fees, have somebody build some scenery,
that may be a cost.
CIRAULO Didn't they do this over at Holly Avenue School one time years ago?
ROSS I don't recall. I know Sierra Madre has. . .he said he was involved with
that.
FASCHING He started that, the Sierra Madre Little Theater.
HARBICHT Let me ask you a question. Let's say that some piano teacher is going to
have a recital for her 10 students and so she wants to use our room and
ask the students' parents to come and hear the recital and. . .has that
happened, that kind of thing? Is it used for that kind of thing?
ROSS For recitals? Yeah, we use it for piano recitals all the time.
HARBICHT What do we charge?
ROSS In that same range, $25 an hour, $50 minimum. . .2 hours minimum,
HARBICHT What's our justification for not charging this guy? He's charging
admission.
ROSS Well, any time you waive charges it's based on the decision of the Library
Board. I mean, it's stated in the policy that this can be waived at their
discretion.
MILLER Has the Library Board ruled on this?
16
L_.
WOOLARD Well, in this market it's slim.
CIRAULO I guess you don't know. But it's not a bad idea to make them aware of it,
I think, again.
WOOLARD Can this be used outside of the redevelopment area?
KINNAHAN There's two issues. The first one, the program didn't work before because
it was--Donna, correct me--it was not very much of an incentive program.
As the program went along, they began to offer more and more incentives
and give more and more of a rebate, and towards the end of the program it
got very successful. If I recollect, there was a waiting list when the
program finally went out of business. . .there was about two or three that
were in line.
ASSISTANT There were a few. Actually, we offered the same program all along, but
PLANNING DIR. what happened was I think everybody was just very leery of it, they didn't
DONNA BUTLER really understand the project. When we had the earthquake, that was the
greatest incentive that we probably had, the Whittier earthquake. Because
that's when the first, which was the Steerburger, took advantage of the
funding. And from that point, we went down. . .everybody kind of started
asking questions. We had our consultants go individually to each of the
businesses. But that really was the first push. We had a few people
before that that did some minor painting, a couple of signs, but up until
that time it was strictly two or three businesses.
WOOLARD In that downtown area someone at that time did go store to store to inform
the people of the program, gave handouts, and they tried to provide all
the information they could on the thing.
CIRAULO That was within the redevelopment area, though.
WOOLARD It coincidentally was within that area. Outside the redevelopment area
you couldn't use the CDBG funds.
FASCHING What's the possibility of. . .there must be a firm or people that specialize
in modernizing and updated community business districts where they give
you a concept and a plan and street, and buildings, and overall design,
and this type of thing. I'd like to think that we could have somebody that
would come in and look at our City and say this is what you should do here,
and you should do here, and that, and give us an idea of a concept and a
design to follow in all aspects. . . .
HARBICHT We've already done it.
WOOLARD That's what we had in the downtown. . . .
FASCHING Well, where is it? What did they say? Everybody was going to follow a
general plan?
HARBICHT No. As a result of their plan, we established design criteria downtown,
we've got a list of colors, we have a list of materials that you have to
use if you're redesigning anything in the downtown area. We put in new
street furniture, we put in new crosswalks, we put in all new street trees
down there. All of that was a result of those recommendations. And so
we have a design criteria for downtown.
FASCHING Where did we drop the ball?
HARBICHT What do you mean?
FASCHING Well, why does it look like it does?
HARBICHT These are privately owned businesses. You can't force them to. . . .
FASCHING Well, that's what I mean. This is why we're here, is to. . .how do we get
those businesses and what steps can we take to get this job done? And what
will it take?
WOOLARD The next step we had was offering free money to. . . .
19
CIRAULO Well, what I would like to see, is there any way we can expand it beyond
the formal redevelopment area, say on First Avenue, for instance?
KINNAHAN I reviewed that with the Agency attorney, and basically, when you go
outside a project area boundary, you have to show a direct relationship
and benefit to the project area. So if you were to go across the street
from the project area, you can probably say, well, that's probably a
benefit. You start getting a block away. . . .
CIRAULO Are there any (inaudible) that we could use to help those people. . .any
programs available?
KINNAHAN Not through the Redevelopment Agency. As I understand, not the Block Grant
because. . . .
CIRAULO In any other way?
•
KINNAHAN And the only other ones would be through private financing, through a
bank. . .there is. . .that's about it.
HARBICHT There is another one. We could take City funds and make them available.
KINNAHAN Well, I'm not sure. It might get (inaudible) .
LOJESKI When you look in that book there are some outstanding examples of junk and
something that really looks nicer.
HARBICHT There's been tremendous improvements.
LOJESKI Tremendous improvements. . .but they're all downtown.
HARBICHT O.K. , well I was just responding to your suggestion that we hire a
consultant. We've already done it.
FASCHING But he didn't tell us, though, of maybe one concept to follow in the
design. In other words, let's take those little stores on Huntington
between Santa Anita. and First. They all look different. Is there
something we could do to make that whole front of those stores all kind
of tie in to one design and still maintain their individuality, but we have
something that really looks like something for the whole length of the
block instead of somebody here with one thing and somebody with something
else. It gives a whole feeling to the block, is what I'm thinking of, and
then continue it on down to Second Avenue.
MARGETT You mean a continuity of a theme, George?
FASCHING Continuity of a theme.
HARBICHT Sort of a mini-mall look.
FASCHING Jump in here.
MARGETT Well, I'm listening here. You have the microphone.
FASCHING But that's the thing I'm talking about. I think these individuals, where
this guy puts on his style awning and the other guy puts on his style
awning, and we don't have any continuity down that street. I think that
Monrovia accomplished that. . .
HARBICHT They don't have continuity. . . .
FASCHING No, wait a minute. . .through the use of trees and street design they gave
it a concept.
MARGETT Well, I think they did, Bob, down Myrtle Avenue, I think they did give it
a concept, a turn-of-the-century type of look.
FASCHING But they did it with trees and street, Bob. They didn't do it with
storefronts. Well, storefronts are nice, but they don't all look alike.
20
HARBICHT But we did it with trees, too. And crosswalks, the monument signs, the
center divider.
WOOLARD If it wasn't for racetrack traffic you could do a lot more down there, but
we need two lanes in each direction to. . . .
FASCHING Well, there's got to be something we have to do, because it can't stay
looking like that for the next 10 years. 'It looks horrible. Baldwin
Avenue, down there, that big old sign sticking out there in front of
Hinshaw's with all those places on it, I don't think that has much
attractiveness or warmth to that street. I think the best looking street
we've got is Live Oak, with the way it's laid out with the center divider
and the trees and the grass and everything, to a degree. But my feeling
is we've got to :ome up with a feeling for our City that it all ties
together. And we have some trees down on there. . .I was up on Foothill
today, we've got some big trees that need trimming, we've got some little
trees that don't need trimming, and it just doesn't look very representa-
tive of the way our City should look. Maybe we need more tree trimmers.
Donna, you wanted to say something?
BUTLER Well, the only thing I was going to point out was, in talking about. . .Will-
dan was the company that was hired to take a look at the whole entire area.
And as Bob mentioned, one of the things that they were trying to do to tie
the area together. . .because one of the biggest problems down there is you
don't have similarity of design in buildings. They talked about
things. . .they felt that trying to create a theme in the downtown area just
wasn't really a theme you could tie all the buildings into. So what they
tried to do was, at that point in time, they tried to do it by the use of
colors, tying it in with the different types of paving materials, street
furniture, and so forth. Because that was the biggest problem that they
had. And it was presented to the Council, and the Council at the time went
along with the fact that it's very difficult to create a theme that doesn't
exist. I mean, you've got buildings that are so different in design and
style, so that was the use of the colors, the types of materials in the
downtown area, and that's why we adopted the downtown design overlay, which
set forth the specific colors, signing. . .which we're still trying to
encourage the replacement of older signs, but it still hasn't taken place
everywhere. But that was a major discussion. We've got a plan, which is
approximately yea big, that was done at the time they discussed all the
different treatments, what could be done and what couldn't be done and so
forth. We used,Block Grant funds to finance that study, and it's just that
I think it's important. . .you know, we did try to come up with something,
but I think it was felt that this was the best way to tie everything
together was through the use of landscaping. . . .
FASCHING Then I guess maybe what we're looking at here is how do we complete the
program that we came up with.
CIRAULO Well, I'd like to ask, if we can, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to ask Howard, do
you have any feel for how the merchants might feel, Howard, about this
idea, or have you heard anything?
HOWARD LAREW I've mainly heard, in South Arcadia, Joe, that people are not real excited
(PRES. , CH. OF with the storefronts down there. Downtown along Huntington Drive has
COMMERCE) certainly improved over the years, and I have no feel for individual
businesses as to whether they would be willing to put up their own funds
to do it. I think with the economy the way it is, they're all looking for
help. And I think they'd probably be receptive to some kind of a program.
CIRAULO I know I hear occasionally from the people on First Avenue south of
Huntington. But the problem, Pete tells us, that's not even the original
redevelopment area. So that's a whole different kind of an idea. . .a whole
different ballgame.
HARBICHT I think that, with regard to downtown. . .I'm talking about Huntington Drive
when I say downtown. . .a number of businesses took advantages of the Block
Grant program that we have. A number of others have gone ahead and
upgraded their storefronts. We still have some that are left to do. And
I don't think that a theme is feasible. I don't think it's feasible to
say anybody that redoes their storefront has to make it look like a western
21
ROSS Yes. They did say that it would be. . .they would give this approval
contingent upon his obtaining Workers Compensation insurance.
HARBICHT Well, what are we talking about it for, then?
MILLER I was going to say, it's not on the agenda tonight so you can't act on it.
FASCHING Well, we're not. . .I'm just throwing this out to Council.
MILLER Oh, O.K.
WOOLARD From the Council he's looking at us to waive the City fee.
ROSS You're talking about the work permit, which I have no knowledge of.
HARBICHT You mean the business license fee, is that what he's talking about getting
waived?
LOJESKI He's running a business and collects the admission. Why. . . .
HARBICHT Why would we do that?
FASCHING Well, I think the only reason we would think about it is, number one, it
brings a little cultural theater to the Library for the benefit of the
students and adults. I don't know what his expenses are, but I know he
has rehearsals for these plays and things like that. He's going to put
out $1,250 up front to State Fund, he tells me, to acquire the Workman's
Comp. So his attitude was. . .he's very nice about the whole thing, I mean
he's a resident of the City and says that he just doesn't have a whole lot
of money to be putting out on this type of thing. I don't think the guy's
going to get rich on it, myself, but he'll make a few bucks probably. It's
not a big deal. So, I don't know. . .whichever way you gentlemen want to
go. But you have to look at it, is it bringing something of value to the
City even though he is going to get reimbursed on some level for it, but
is it important to the City and the community.
MARGETT I always go back to precedent. In other words, we let this guy do it,
then. . .you know, I can remember here at that last Council meeting somebody
came in and wanted fees waived for putting in a generator for taking
pictures over at the Arboretum, and we said no. I don't know whether or
not you can all of a sudden say, well, yes, we'll allow the show at the
Library, but we're not going to be able to allow somebody to make a few
nickels putting on a production over at the Arboretum. Nobody's cutting
a fat hog, I don't think. But by the same token, I think we better
establish a policy so that if something down the road comes, you're going
to be consistent.
FASCHING We already have a policy. I think we have to decide each one, if we feel
if it's a benefit to the community, and then make the decision. I don't
happen to feel that the generator situation in the Arboretum, making a
commercial film, is of any benefit to the City. But little kids going to
a play at the Library might be a different situation.
HARBICHT Well, we can't make a decision right. . .though I guess I'm not in favor of
waiving the fee.
FASCHING O.K.
MARGETT I wouldn't be either.
FASCHING O.K. I just wanted to get a feeling out of you gentlemen.
2. BUSINESS O.K. We'll go on to the next item on the agenda. . .the business districts.
DISTRICTS - All right. Then the next item is Redevelopment on the business district.
MAYOR FASCHING Prior to that, I'd like to make one little announcement here, which I think
you're all aware of. There is a conference in San Jose on August 6 and
7 concerning downtown revitalization, Main Street prototypes. And I
intend to go to this. This might be of interest to us down the road
concerning our own business district. So I wanted to remind you of that
17
conference. And we have Mr. Larew from our Chamber of Commerce in the
audience. He is available to us for any item we may want to ask
him, on behalf of the Chamber. And I think the main point of this
discussion on business districts is a general feeling--and correct me if
I'm wrong--that we feel that there needs to be something done with our
business districts. The business district on Huntington Drive, the
business district on First Avenue for what's there, but just revitaliza-
tion. Baldwin Avenue falls into this perspective also, as does Live Oak
Avenue down in South Arcadia. And I think that this has been talked back
and forth in years, but nothing really being accomplished in it when we
look at other cities and what they've done with their business districts.
So, with that I'll open it up to general discussion. Mr. Harbicht.
HARBICHT Well, we've got this memo dated 6/10 on things that have been done, can
be done, and the one thing I see missing from here is this ^rogram that
we've had for redoing the facades of businesses in the downy .in area.
WOOLARD We've put together a book of before and afters. Some of these .11 be done
with a funding program that we had through the Block Grant Program. The
others were done individually.
CIRAULO Do we still have that program available? It was, what, a 50-50 thing, is
that how it worked?
WOOLARD _ It's still possible, but it's questionable as to the value of it at this
point.
HARBICHT How many did we do, or were done, under that program?
WOOLARD We did. . .about 16 or so places got some funds. Some were complete facade
removals and others were just for signs and awnings. So some were major
things and others were minor. The problem is that the amount of funding
that you now have to devote to your person of low-moderate income, that
percentage has increased. So the amount of money that would be available
for this program is substantially reduced. The fact that you have to go
through Mavis Bacon for the contractors and stuff makes it difficult to
find somebody, and the administration costs of monitoring all of their
employees and everything else makes it not a very cost-effective program.
But there are other ways the same types of things can be funded. Loans
through redevelopment agencies rather than just loans for other types of
(inaudible) might be available rather than the Block Grants. They're not
as constrained as the Block Grants were. Maybe it will have some. . . .
KINNAHAN In your package that Bob referred to, number seven refers to information
on a possible agency pilot commercial investor rebate loan program. That
deals exactly with picking up where the CDBG program left off. Where the
Redevelopment Agency could, in the downtown, finance a rehab commercial
loan program, or a grant program, (inaudible) program. We've done some
initial research into programs offered through other cities and other
agencies. We've researched the downtown as to the possible need for such.
The need is there. The program exists in other communities. We have funds
available in Arcadia to create such a program if the Agency wants it, in
this case the Agency. We can certainly come back to you with a clear
program concept where we can attack the small problem like signs. We can
probably create an architectural incentive program where there's two or
three architects who can assist a business. We help to pay for it, to
encourage them to take advantage of our design criteria, and then we can
also provide the rebate loan, the rebate to them to do the work. And it's
being modeled very much on the CDBG program.
CIRAULO Well, I like that whole idea.
HARBICHT Yeah, but we've already done it.
KINNAHAN We have, but there's quite a few more to do. We're not done yet.
CIRAULO There's a lot more to do.
HARBICHT The others didn't move when we offered it before. What's the probability
that they would move if we offered it again?
18
L_.
WOOLARD Well, in this market it's slim.
CIRAULO I guess you don't know. But it's not a bad idea to make them aware of it,
I think, again.
WOOLARD Can this be used outside of the redevelopment area?
KINNAHAN There's two issues. The first one, the program didn't work before because
it was--Donna, correct me--it was not very much of an incentive program.
As the program went along, they began to offer more and more incentives
and give more and more of a rebate, and towards the end of the program it
got very successful. If I recollect, there was a waiting list when the
program finally went out of business. . .there was about two or three that
were in line.
ASSISTANT There were a few. Actually, we offered the same program all along, but
PLANNING DIR. what happened was I think everybody was just very leery of it, they didn't
DONNA BUTLER really understand the project. When we had the earthquake, that was the
greatest incentive that we probably had, the Whittier earthquake. Because
that's when the first, which was the Steerburger, took advantage of the
funding. And from that point, we went down. . .everybody kind of started
asking questions. We had our consultants go individually to each of the
businesses. But that really was the first push. We had a few people
before that that did some minor painting, a couple of signs, but up until
that time it was strictly two or three businesses.
WOOLARD In that downtown area someone at that time did go store to store to inform
the people of the program, gave handouts, and they tried to provide all
the information they could on the thing.
CIRAULO That was within the redevelopment area, though.
WOOLARD It coincidentally was within that area. Outside the redevelopment area
you couldn't use the CDBG funds.
FASCHING What's the possibility of. . .there must be a firm or people that specialize
in modernizing and updated community business districts where they give
you a concept and a plan and street, and buildings, and overall design,
and this type of thing. I'd like to think that we could have somebody that
would come in and look at our City and say this is what you should do here,
and you should do here, and that, and give us an idea of a concept and a
design to follow in all aspects. . . .
HARBICHT We've already done it.
WOOLARD That's what we had in the downtown. . . .
FASCHING Well, where is it? What did they say? Everybody was going to follow a
general plan?
HARBICHT No. As a result of their plan, we established design criteria downtown,
we've got a list of colors, we have a list of materials that you have to
use if you're redesigning anything in the downtown area. We put in new
street furniture, we put in new crosswalks, we put in all new street trees
down there. All of that was a result of those recommendations. And so
we have a design criteria for downtown.
FASCHING Where did we drop the ball?
HARBICHT What do you mean?
FASCHING Well, why does it look like it does?
HARBICHT These are privately owned businesses. You can't force them to. . . .
FASCHING Well, that's what I mean. This is why we're here, is to. . .how do we get
those businesses and what steps can we take to get this job done? And what
will it take?
WOOLARD The next step we had was offering free money to. . . .
19
CIRAULO Well, what I would like to see, is there any way we can expand it beyond
the formal redevelopment area, say on First Avenue, for instance?
KINNAHAN I reviewed that with the Agency attorney, and basically, when you go
outside a project area boundary, you have to show a direct relationship
and benefit to the project area. So if you were to go across the street
from the project area, you can probably say, well, that's probably a
benefit. You start getting a block away. . . .
CIRAULO Are there any (inaudible) that we could use to help those people. . .any
programs available?
KINNAHAN Not through the Redevelopment Agency. As I understand, not the Block Grant
because. . . .
CIRAULO In any other way?
•
KINNAHAN And the only other ones would be through private financing, through a
bank. . .there is. . .that's about it.
HARBICHT There is another one. We could take City funds and make them available.
KINNAHAN Well, I'm not sure. It might get (inaudible) .
LOJESKI When you look in that book there are some outstanding examples of junk and
something that really looks nicer.
HARBICHT There's been tremendous improvements.
LOJESKI Tremendous improvements. . .but they're all downtown.
HARBICHT O.K. , well I was just responding to your suggestion that we hire a
consultant. We've already done it.
FASCHING But he didn't tell us, though, of maybe one concept to follow in the
design. In other words, let's take those little stores on Huntington
between Santa Anita. and First. They all look different. Is there
something we could do to make that whole front of those stores all kind
of tie in to one design and still maintain their individuality, but we have
something that really looks like something for the whole length of the
block instead of somebody here with one thing and somebody with something
else. It gives a whole feeling to the block, is what I'm thinking of, and
then continue it on down to Second Avenue.
MARGETT You mean a continuity of a theme, George?
FASCHING Continuity of a theme.
HARBICHT Sort of a mini-mall look.
FASCHING Jump in here.
MARGETT Well, I'm listening here. You have the microphone.
FASCHING But that's the thing I'm talking about. I think these individuals, where
this guy puts on his style awning and the other guy puts on his style
awning, and we don't have any continuity down that street. I think that
Monrovia accomplished that. . .
HARBICHT They don't have continuity. . . .
FASCHING No, wait a minute. . .through the use of trees and street design they gave
it a concept.
MARGETT Well, I think they did, Bob, down Myrtle Avenue, I think they did give it
a concept, a turn-of-the-century type of look.
FASCHING But they did it with trees and street, Bob. They didn't do it with
storefronts. Well, storefronts are nice, but they don't all look alike.
20
HARBICHT But we did it with trees, too. And crosswalks, the monument signs, the
center divider.
WOOLARD If it wasn't for racetrack traffic you could do a lot more down there, but
we need two lanes in each direction to. . . .
FASCHING Well, there's got to be something we have to do, because it can't stay
looking like that for the next 10 years. 'It looks horrible. Baldwin
Avenue, down there, that big old sign sticking out there in front of
Hinshaw's with all those places on it, I don't think that has much
attractiveness or warmth to that street. I think the best looking street
we've got is Live Oak, with the way it's laid out with the center divider
and the trees and the grass and everything, to a degree. But my feeling
is we've got to :ome up with a feeling for our City that it all ties
together. And we have some trees down on there. . .I was up on Foothill
today, we've got some big trees that need trimming, we've got some little
trees that don't need trimming, and it just doesn't look very representa-
tive of the way our City should look. Maybe we need more tree trimmers.
Donna, you wanted to say something?
BUTLER Well, the only thing I was going to point out was, in talking about. . .Will-
dan was the company that was hired to take a look at the whole entire area.
And as Bob mentioned, one of the things that they were trying to do to tie
the area together. . .because one of the biggest problems down there is you
don't have similarity of design in buildings. They talked about
things. . .they felt that trying to create a theme in the downtown area just
wasn't really a theme you could tie all the buildings into. So what they
tried to do was, at that point in time, they tried to do it by the use of
colors, tying it in with the different types of paving materials, street
furniture, and so forth. Because that was the biggest problem that they
had. And it was presented to the Council, and the Council at the time went
along with the fact that it's very difficult to create a theme that doesn't
exist. I mean, you've got buildings that are so different in design and
style, so that was the use of the colors, the types of materials in the
downtown area, and that's why we adopted the downtown design overlay, which
set forth the specific colors, signing. . .which we're still trying to
encourage the replacement of older signs, but it still hasn't taken place
everywhere. But that was a major discussion. We've got a plan, which is
approximately yea big, that was done at the time they discussed all the
different treatments, what could be done and what couldn't be done and so
forth. We used,Block Grant funds to finance that study, and it's just that
I think it's important. . .you know, we did try to come up with something,
but I think it was felt that this was the best way to tie everything
together was through the use of landscaping. . . .
FASCHING Then I guess maybe what we're looking at here is how do we complete the
program that we came up with.
CIRAULO Well, I'd like to ask, if we can, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to ask Howard, do
you have any feel for how the merchants might feel, Howard, about this
idea, or have you heard anything?
HOWARD LAREW I've mainly heard, in South Arcadia, Joe, that people are not real excited
(PRES. , CH. OF with the storefronts down there. Downtown along Huntington Drive has
COMMERCE) certainly improved over the years, and I have no feel for individual
businesses as to whether they would be willing to put up their own funds
to do it. I think with the economy the way it is, they're all looking for
help. And I think they'd probably be receptive to some kind of a program.
CIRAULO I know I hear occasionally from the people on First Avenue south of
Huntington. But the problem, Pete tells us, that's not even the original
redevelopment area. So that's a whole different kind of an idea. . .a whole
different ballgame.
HARBICHT I think that, with regard to downtown. . .I'm talking about Huntington Drive
when I say downtown. . .a number of businesses took advantages of the Block
Grant program that we have. A number of others have gone ahead and
upgraded their storefronts. We still have some that are left to do. And
I don't think that a theme is feasible. I don't think it's feasible to
say anybody that redoes their storefront has to make it look like a western
21
saloon, or whatever we decide is the theme. I just don't think that's
feasible because we're having a hard enough time just getting the majority
of them to redo their fronts. I mean, it's taken us years. But I think
the best that we can realistically shoot for is to try to get some of those
other ones that are in pretty bad shape to redo their storefronts within
the color and materials guidelines that we have in force down there, which
they would have to use if they do redo it. So the real question is, how
can we get them to do it? And it sounds to me that maybe using some
redevelopment funds and putting a priority on that in that we ask that some
significant amount of staff time be invested in contacting people, saying
the City is willing to put up this much money, or whatever, to help you
do this. And I think the possibility of maybe having two or three
architects who are tuned into the program, and we could say if you'll
contact one of these people, or we'll have one of them contact you, is the
only way we're going to accomplish it. Because we've got all kinds of
absentee owners down there who don't see it. . . .
FASCHING Well, I agree with what you're saying. I think. . .probably a concept we'd
like to see, but I think maybe it might be well for us to concentrate on
what we can do. In other words, what we can do with our streets, what we
can do with our landscaping and our trees, to make it much more desirable.
Then we go. . . .
•
HARBICHT Like what?
FASCHING Well, I don't know, but we can certainly. . . .
HARBICHT We put in all new street trees three or four years ago. . .
FASCHING Well, maybe there's some more we can do, I don't know.
HARBICHT . . .we redid the railroad bridge, we got the center divider, and we put in
crosswalks. I don't know what's left.
FASCHING Well, O.K. It's always good. . .we can still take another look at it from
that standpoint. That's what we can do. What we can't do is come up with
a theme or this other thing. But to try to make available to these
business owners what we can to rehabilitate their storefronts, and if they
don't want to do it then what do we have, as a body, that we can do by
resolution to make them. . .force them to get into a. . . .
HARBICHT Force them to do it?
FASCHING Well, I don't know, maybe condemn their property. . .they're in a
redevelopment area.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, you know, I talked to a realtor, a prominent realtor in town,
and we were talking much in the same vein that the Council is talking right
now. She said that invariably the owners or the tenants that are in these
small stores really don't want anything more to be done on the front of
those stores, because invariably then the landlord wants to raise rents
and they cannot afford rents. . .now this is what she said. She said that
there's nothing that would really induce. . .and what you need on Huntington
Drive, if we're still talking Huntington Drive, is something that would
induce foot traffic on Huntington Drive. There's nobody that wants to park
over in back of Jimmy Chin's building or in front of the post office and
walk across the street and walk up and down Huntington Drive to be able
to buy something. There's just not that inducement. I was thinking just ,
the other day. . .and I don't know whether staff has had any consideration
about this. . .but we've got, apparently, a post office that's going to be
torn down and refurbished. I think there's a ton of foot traffic in front
of that post office. I don't know whether we should not consider
putting. . .
[End of Tape 1 - Side 2, beginning of Tape 2 - Side 1]
. . .stuff money into it and let's get block grants, let's get. . .and so on
and so forth. . .and we might be just trying to chase a dead horse. It might
22
11
very well be that that area has purely lost it's economic use for that
area. It just may not be. . . .
Why?
HARGETT . . .where it is. And that's a natural transition that's taken place.
FASCHING Well, what do you do with it then?
CIRAULO With a lack of parking, that could very well be.
FASCHING What do we do with it?
LOJESKI That's your whole key. The whole key to the situation, George. Look at
the north side versus the south side.
MARGETT You say what do you do with it. . .excuse me, Dennis, I cut you off. I
didn't mean to.
LOJESKI No, I interrupted you. But I'm just saying, look at the north side versus
the south side of the street between First Avenue and Santa Anita. I look
at it every day. The north side has plenty of traffic. Why? Why do the
storefronts look better? Why do you have businesses proliferating on that
side? You've got parking for the customers. The minute you take parking ,
away, such as you have done, or there's a lack of 'it. . .we haven't
done. . .but that's the way the area developed. The businesses are in
shambles on the south side of the street.
MARGETT Well, see, staff will tell you that there's sufficient parking in the area
to be able to take care of both,the north and south sides.
LOJESKI Gockley's is gone because Gockley's, first of all, had two parking spaces
behind their store and people couldn't come in there. They couldn't
function.
FASCHING Gockley's, I think, was a result of being gobbled up by people that. . .all
the wholesale stationery stores.
LOJESKI But that's the value of retail business today. You have to make yourself
available to the customer. If the customer is going to come into a mama
and poppa area, there's got to be incentive. And if you can't park right
there. . .you know, a signal, a better situation for that intersection of
Huntington and First was put in. . .what did it do? It took parking spaces
away on the street. There was no additional parking to the poor businesses
on the west side of the street, and that stationery store went under. In
other words, it was just another thing that happened down there.
FASCHING Then I guess we can throw First Avenue into the same category. Maybe it's
beyond it's, commercial use.
LOJESKI I don't know. It's all in the redevelopment area.
FASCHING I come back to the question, what do we do with it? Just let it sit?
HARGETT No.
FASCHING What?
LOJESKI I think you've given incentives to the people in that area, much more than
we've ever been able to give, than we've ever done in West Arcadia, South
Arcadia, Foothill Boulevard. We haven't gotten into any assistance
programs up in those areas.
MARGETT We can't do everything. In other words, if it's true what you said, that
we have provided all those incentives, City government, local government,
has been able to provide those incentives and we've gone the extra mile
and we've had the staff reports and we've had the consultants go ahead and
look at those areas and still things haven't clicked, then I would say that
it could very well be that we've lost our use. for that land. When you find
condominiums coming right back up to the developments that are all on the
23
south side of Huntington Drive, you're not going to go in there and lay
those waste and build more parking area, I don't think. And I would say
that it may very well be, Mr. Mayor, to be able to. . .and I'm sure that a
feasibility study as to what that area should be may be just what you want
to do.
LOJESKI The Willdan study did that. The Willdan study addressed the south side
of Huntington Drive and said if it's going to remain in the long-range plan
of things a business commercial area, there has to be parking created.
And their recommendation was to take the north side of Alta Street and
devote that to parking. So you've got now developable sites, O.K.? You've
got the availability, hypothetically, of AT&T to come in, let's say, and
build a three-story building. . . .
FASCHING Where?
LOJESKI On Huntington Drive, let's say.
FASCHING Between First and Santa Anita?
LOJESKI Could be. Could be. You've got an anchor on one side which is a bank,
George, O.K.? It's the only decent building, I think, in that whole block.
FASCHING Home Savings?
LOJESKI Sure.
MARGETT And they're short of parking.
LOJESKI Not really.
HARGETT Well, their parking is across the street. . .is that what somebody's going
to do to cash their. . . .
LOJESKI No, but that's my point, O.K.? If you cannot go to a mama and poppa store,
then what's the incentive to go there? You're going to go to a mall,
you're going to go to Monrovia, or wherever is convenient.
MARGETT But what I'm saying, the next step, if we're going to generate parking,
where are you going to generate it? Go in there and lay waste some of
those condominiums that are brand new?
LOJESKI From between First and Second, you're stuck. Between Santa Anita and First
Avenue you're not stuck. By that I'm saying just by the age of the
structures.
HARBICHT Yeah, but you're stuck from a cost standpoint.
LOJESKI Sure. No doubt about it. I'm just saying we have a study that was done.
If I'm wrong Bill, that was one of three studies over the last 25 years,
I think, that's been done. They have all addressed the south side of
Huntington Drive in that very direct (inaudible) .
MARGETT In other words, does that study say that that is a viable economic entity
on the south side of Huntington Drive, we can really make some money there
if we provide parking?
LOJESKI If you have parking.
FASCHING Well, I doubt that very much.
MARGETT So do I.
LOJESKI George, it's undevelopable from a retail standpoint. . . .
FASCHING We already have all this development land out there that we want to develop
anyway. What we want to do is clean up the looks of the business district.
We don't have the parking, they're stuck there. And if we don't clean them
up, we don't have the parking, what are we going to do with them?
24
( )
HARBICHT I think we've got two different things here we're talking about. One is
parking, that's a whole separate issue. And if we want to take that
up. . .there's no question that parking would help the viability of that
area. But the cost of providing that parking is so astronomical that I
don't think that. . . .
FASCHING Plus the cost of relocating all those tenants and the (inaudible) . It's
not even in the ballpark.
HARBICHT The second issue is to say, what can we do to clean up that area, to get
the rest of it looking nice. And I guess I come back to what I said
before, is I think that I would be willing to entertain the idea of using,
maybe, some redevelopment money and putting together a program much like
we had before but maybe with a little less red tape. But basically, what
you're going to be doing when you cut it all away is you're saying to the
owner, "If you'll spend $30,000 fixing up the front of this building, we'll
pay for $15,000 of it." That's what it'comes down to.
FASCHING But you know what? It wouldn't cost him $30,000.
HARBICHT I just use that as an example. I don't know what it would cost.
FASCHING They don't want to spend five grand.
HARBICHT But I specifically reject the idea that we say, "Well, if you won't do it
voluntarily, somehow we're going to make you do it." Because I won't vote
to do that. I don't know if it's possible, but if it was, I wouldn't vote
to do it.
CIRAULO They're all doing so poorly, I just don't think they have the money to. . . .
FASCHING Who's they? Not the property owners, the guys renting the buildings are
doing poorly.
CIRAULO Yeah, the businesses that are there.
FASCHING The guys that own the property paid for it a long time ago.
CIRAULO He doesn't care.
FASCHING It's all lint in his pocket.
CIRAULO I'm talking about the poor little business guy who's there.
FASCHING That's right. So then our City slinks along with these businesses looking
like heck on Huntington Drive. The property owner puts all that paid-off
building money in his pocket. And we can end up with people doing pawn
shops with gates on the front and all that type of stuff.
MARGETT We're getting back to the thesis that I put out on the table, Mr. Mayor.
Maybe you have lost that use of that property.
FASCHING O.K. , then I'll pose this question to you--what are we going to do with
it?
MARGETT O.K. , well, we're going full circle here. If that is viable, if we know
for sure that we can make things click down there by providing Block Grant
funds or similar programs, I would be in favor of that. But there's no
sense in going in there and giving a Block Grant-type program and still
have people worried that their rental rates are going to go up. And we
haven't really generated any of the income or the tax that we can get to
substantiate spending the money.
CIRAULO See, I think they're going to get even less traffic and do less business
once Nordstrom's moves in and the mall has got a whole new thing.
FASCHING I think we should go on to the next subject. . .we'll never come to a. . . .
CIRAULO Well, I know, but what do we do with it?
25
FASCHING Yeah, what do we do with it? That's what we're here for, to decide what
to do with it, not to find out all the economical problems of those guys
selling costumes and everything.
MARGETT I think that a lot of it. . .and we're sitting here trying to make that
decision, Mr. Mayor. But, you know, we've got the Chamber of Commerce and
we've got the owners of the building, and we've also got the tenants of
the building. They should be saying, hey, this is what would be beneficial
for this downtown area. And I don't hear them saying anything.
CIRAULO Well, let me ask, Pete, you attend the Downtown Business Association
meetings occasionally. What do they say, what's the feel, what do you
hear?
KINNAHAN I don't recall that really coming up. It's, probably a question -~at can
be posed to them :o get their input.
LOJESKI I'll give you an answer to that, Joe. Bob and I, as two candidates for
the City Council, attended a meeting with the downtown Arcadia business
merchants. Their key question to all the candidates is what are you going
to do to protect. . .I'll give you an example. . .the guy that owns and
operates Rod's Diner says, "What are you going to do to protect my business
so I can stay in business at the expense of what's going to develop—at the
Ford agency? What is your concept, Mr. Councilman? What are you going
to do so my business doesn't suffer?" That's a tough question to answer.
That's where their concern was. The old, established guy, he'll continue
to operate down there.
FASCHING I don't know. That's an old, established restaurant, Rod's. Well, the
thing here is that we can go over all of these problems to the shop owner,
the retailer, the property owner, but we're not getting to the solving of
the problem. If it looks like hell, how do we make it look better
for. . .and you can't convince me that if everything looks better they're
not going to enjoy more business, with one problem in mind is the parking
on the south side of Huntington. But if you continue to allow these to
exist and continue to deteriorate, and the lower class retailer is getting
in there because the place looks like hell in a period of time, that
doesn't help our City.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, would you suggest that we have a session with representatives
of the downtown owners and the tenants and the Chamber of Commerce and see
what they would think that would be beneficial for them down there?
FASCHING No, I wouldn't.
MARGETT Well, how can we sit here and tell them that this is going to be good for
them?
FASCHING, O.K. , all I'm looking at is this. We're probably looking at maybe eight
or nine property owners involved in this. Any businessman in his right
mind would not tell us that improvements of the business district would
not be beneficial to him. So if I wanted him to come in and tell me how
to handle the property owners and get them to do what they should do to
improve their buildings, that's one thing. But they can't tell us that.
They can only tell us what they consider is a good retailing situation.
And we know what a good retailing situation is. Not a deteriorating
retailing situation. And I think I come back to Bob, we have to have
somebody that goes out and calls on these property owners and convinces
them that it's in the best interest of our City, and them, and their future
to participate in an upgrade of their business front, and try and do that.
MARGETT You know, George, I think that's fine. I just don't know that we're
hitting nails on heads and getting to the root of the problem. Putting
a new storefront and then saying everybody is going to come in here and
buy new watches or whatever this guy is trying to sell over there, I don't
know whether they're going to be able to do that.
FASCHING Well, then, let's blow it up. We'll get rid of it.
26
-p.
CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
1
K
I.y
to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
2
4.'k
Y�
ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
3
r
perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
5
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E D I T E D
TRANS C R I P T
(Insofar as decipherable)
RELATING TO
ARCADIA CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION
JUNE 24, 1992
Ai a
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, 2)5 /1
-p.
CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
1
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to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
2
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Y�
ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
3
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
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FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
to it, however, another one which is potentially unknown as far as its
impact. They just simply say that they might want to require that
agencies would receive in tax increment only what they've legally
contracted for. In our case, we have bonded indebtedness, that's $330,000
a year. Well, the rest of it is often pay as you go. We pay as we go.
They would sort of take that away. They would simply give us in tax
increment $330,000 because that's contractually established.
•
50
1 - TTh
1
FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
4
LOJESKI Hasn't Kent looked at this. . . .
FASCHING You're bringing up a lot of other questions. You say you want to be
guaranteed the extra square feet will be good for another 25 years, and
all those things.
LOJESKI I didn't use the word guarantee. I want to be assured that what we're
talking is going to be usable for the next period of time.
ROSS It's 10 years that I said would be the absolute guarantee that would. . .the
capacity would be guaranteed for that time. Beyond that it's difficult
to tell, the changes that could occur. Certainly, when we do this it would
be a 25-year building. But it could be at capacity in 10 years.
CIRAULO And what might extend that, too, is. . .I understand it's just preliminary
at this point, but I understand the School District is having some
preliminary discussions about some way to access the Library by way of
computer and keep most of the students at the school.
ROSS They already do. They do access the Library by computer, but actually what
that does is tell them what we have so they know that we have it before
they come over. And that's primarily the way it's used now. They
originally wanted a retrieval system, and then they couldn't afford the
people to come and retrieve the items at the time because of their budget.
But they still have access to our collection by computer.
CIRAULO They have that now?
ROSS They have that now.
HARBICHT Well, some comments that I have on this is, one, the question of where the
money is going to come from. I think this is why we have to prioritize
our capital improvements. We have the Capital Improvements Budget, we have
money in it, we have receipts going into it from the Track and the other
monies that we're putting into that. So if we decide that we're going to
build this Library, or build this addition to the Library, the money is
available in the Capital Improvements Fund. That's what the Capital
Improvements Fund is for. And if that takes up most of the money there,
then any other capital improvements that we want, such as an auditorium,
whatever, are just going to have to be put off two or three years until
we build it up to the point where we can do it. That's the way we've
always done it in this City. And I guess I'll express the opinion that,
in my mind, this is the number one priority. And so I would be in favor
of using the Capital Improvements Funds for doing the Library. I guess
the question of how long the Library is going. . .how long this would
last. . .Kent, I'm going to argue with you a little bit on this. I don't
know why it would only last for 10 years. I don't think we foresee any
significant population growth here in Arcadia. As a matter of fact, the
consultants' report that we had visualized almost no growth.
ROSS Well, I didn't say it wouldn't last more than 10 years; I said I couldn't
guarantee it. I could absolutely guarantee that it would certainly have
sufficient space for growth up to 10 years. After that, there are a lot
of things we don't know, as I explained, I think, the last time. . .particul-
ar, say, reference volumes that were only two volumes at one time are now
10, 15, and they've grown by 10 times. But we're still required to have
those. So the same thing, to serve the community in this much space 10
years ago now takes several shelves.
HARBICHT I understand that. I guess I'm thinking in terms of, you know, one of the
things that would have the greatest influence on the size of the Library
needed is the number of people using it. I think the number of people
using it is pretty closely tied to population growth. And so I don't
visualize a huge increase in the number of people using it. In regard to
the reference volumes, that's true and I know that the amount of
information in the world is constantly expanding and we seem to be putting
more of it on our shelves. But it could be, and I think it's very likely,
that 10 or 15 years from now an awful lot of that is going to be on laser
disk and you're not even going to have those volumes. . .you're just going
to pop a laser disk in and read what you want, and print out the part you
7
� t
want. Which means that actually there would be a shrinking demand for
space there. But I guess in my mind. . .Dennis asked the question, how long
would this be good for. I'm fairly convinced that this kind of an
expansion is going to be good for more than 10 years, and I don't think
20 years. . .my guess, and I'm not a library expert, but my guess just based
on what I see in trends is I think we're pretty safe in saying that if we
were to do this it's going to serve the needs of Arcadia for 20 years.
CIRAULO Well, that's a good question to ask. How much extra space do we need to
last us for 25 years?
HARBICHT Because if it was only going to be 10 years, I'd be pretty reluctant to
do this. If I thought 10 years from now we were going to have to tear
everything down and build a new Library, I might say maybe we ought to just
struggle along with what we've got for three more and save up the money
and then build a brand new Library. So, that's my feeling.
FASCHING I feel that it's going to last us for 20, 25 years. The one we have was '
conceivably out of space 20 years ago, and we've been using that for 20
years since then.
•
[End of Tape 1 - Side 1, beginning of Tape 1 - side 2]
HARBICHT . . .in terms of making a decision as to whether or not we should do this
is how much it's going to cost. Now, we have a cost estimate here that
I think Bob Daggett gave us, but we also have the cost estimate for the
new building, which the consultants gave us a year or so ago, two years
ago maybe, and some of their unit costs are particularly high. And so I
don't know if they're high estimators or Bob's a low estimator, or if the
truth lies somewhere in the middle, but we're talking significant
difference in estimated costs.
ROSS I spoke to Bob Daggett on that issue and we discussed it at length. And
using the same criteria that he used for this plan, it was his feeling that
that same building, even nearly 60,000 square feet, would be under
$8,000,000. He gave a number of reasons why he felt that buildings were
overbuilt or built way above cost. And I think he may have mentioned some
of them in the last study session. But that was his feeling, and that's
the way he's based this cost. So if you were comparing this to a new
building, you'd have to use the same criteria, and based on that criteria,
his criteria would be about $7,500,000 for the facility recommended
originally by. . . .
HARBICHT Well, the shell or the whole ball of wax?
ROSS The whole thing, he said. That's what I kept asking him, I said does this
include fees and everything? He said yes.
HARBICHT And interior?
CIRAULO As opposed to this recommended idea, which is about $2.3 million, right?
ROSS Well, this whole thing, though, this whole thing is $3.5 million.
CIRAULO Three point five.
WOOLARD I think what Kent was comparing was that the plan for a new Library was
like, $16,000,000. The same numbers applied from Daggett's figures, the
new Library would only cost $7,500,000 to $8,000,000. So there's quite
a large difference. But a lot of it may have to do with materials and
other details that Bob has a different image of than the other people who
may have been, let's say, going with a Cadillac. I really don't think
you're going to have a handle on it until you actually have an architect
getting down to the more. . . .
CIRAULO Well, it seems to me that t?-at's what we need to do next, is to have an
architect look at. . .we all seem to like this concept. . .have an architect
put pencil to paper and come back to us.
8
FASCHING Well, we have to advertise for an architect.
CIRAULO Well, go out to bid, I guess.
WOOLARD Daggett can still help us a lot if he wants to volunteer.
FASCHING Well, I think he'd be perfectly willing to volunteer to help out on this
thing even though he can't bid on it. But I think he's involved himself
on a volunteer basis with us, which I think is great, and I would certainly
like to keep him involved, to what extent the staff might want to, to
advise us. I personally feel that we probably get ripped off every time
we build something in this City.
MARGETT Well, that's true, Mr. Mayor, and I think that's where Bob Daggett's coming
from. I'm sure that there are architects out there that will build you
a library for $20,000,000. There's no problem doing it. Or ten or eight.
And I think that that's the key in the whole thing. I think what Bob
Daggett wants to be able to do is say, hey, we have $3,000,000, or whatever
we're coming up with, five, or what your budget is, make that thing work
at $5,000,000 and make it look like we're going to spend $20,000,000. And
I think that's what we should be doing.
FASCHING Well, I think we should be taking advantage of this type of expertise and
help that can be furnished to us by one of our commissioners, that's what
they're there for. They're residents that are interested in the City and
the future of it, too. That's why I propose that we settle on this
concept, we're happy with it. We have a budget, we know where the money
is coming from. We tell Daggett and the Librarian this is what we want
to do, and let Daggett put the finishing touches on it so we know, and let
him kind of help us as we want him to in the process of. . . .
MARGETT I think you'll watch your nickels and dimes and have him. . . .
FASCHING . . .soliciting architects and soliciting, when the time comes, to
contractors and everything else.
LOJESKI What's the current status, Jim, of our fund that we could take it away
from.
DALE I just happened to look at that, and I would think that what you're talking
about is probably the Capital Outlay Fund, which has got about $2,032,000,
and the Facility Construction Fund, which has another $3,327,000. So those
two funds are really specifically for. . .
LOJESKI A combination of those things.
HARBICHT A little over $5,000,000.
DALE A little over $5,000,000, right.
FASCHING Well, I would like to do this as best we can so that we could ve some
money left over for some other things that we might want to dL _own the
road.
HARBICHT What did the Community Center cost us, Bill, on a per-square-foot basis,
do you recall?
WOOLARD A little over $200. But because of the materials and detail work that was
a lot higher.
HARBICHT That included the interior, detail, the wood. . . .
WOOLARD Yeah.
HARBICHT And that was a little over $200. And the consultants that we had on the
Library a year or two ago, they're. . . .
ROSS They were over $250, I think. . .$270, I think. You di"ide it by the square
footage, divide $16,000,000 by 59,000.
9
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
FASCHING And then tell him we'd appreciate it, as commissioner, if he'd kind of give
us some advice as we go along on this with some of these outside bids and
everything.
CIRAULO Sounds like a way to go.
HARBICHT Well, I'd like to be more specific than that. I think if we agree on the
concept that we should get going on advertising for proposals for
architect.
LOJESKI I think where Bob can help out is working with the staff in formulating
the RFP.
FASCHING Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
LOJESKI I don't want to see any other extra steps involved. . .I think just go right
into it.
FASCHING Well, that's exactly what I was talking about, using him as a consultant
and working with staff on the deal.
MILLER You want him to be a voluntary consultant on our process?
FASCHING Sure. He's willing to do that. Yeah. So then we'll do that? .
HARBICHT I think that's what we're all saying in different ways.
FASCHING Yeah, right. O.K. Do we have agreement, then, on that?
MARGETT Yeah. What do you need, a motion, Mr. Mayor, or what do you want to do?
CIRAULO I will so move, Mr. Mayor.
MARGETT Second the motion, Mr. Mayor.
MILLER O.K. , that is to go out for RFP's with Mr. Daggett as a volunteering
consultant?
(Several or all Councilmembers answered affirmative.)
HARBICHT Can I just ask a couple of questions for clarification here if, in fact,
this is included in the motion or should be. I think that what we're
approving here is a concept for additions. It seems like we ought to also
be including some cost level that we want to have put into that RFP, it
would be a part of the thing.
CIRAULO Well, we won't know until an architect comes back at us, right?
HARBICHT I think- that, I guess. . . .
CIRAULO You want to give him a ceiling up front, and say not to exceed. . . .
HARBICHT I mean, I think we ought to make some estimate of how much are we willing
to spend? I mean, what if he comes back and he does all these drawings
and everything and we find out it's going to cost us $6,000,000 to add this
stuff, and we say why didn't we build a new building.
MARGETT Well, isn't that part of the process that architects would present to us,
what they think they can do the drawing for?
HARBICHT Dennis was saying, and I agree with him, that we have to say, how much is
this worth to us? At least some general statement of how much we're
willing to spend to do these additions. I mean, I guess I'm saying I would
like to have the architects work within a parameter of approximately three
and a half million dollars, the whole thing. . . .
CIRAULO Three and a half to four million.
Give them a ballpark figure.
11
h
LOJESKI Because if you don't, Bob, what happens? An architect. . .if you give an
architect carte blanche, O.K. , an architect who, let's say, has never done
any work in Arcadia with any public buildings. Doesn't know the City,
starts going through the City and says, hey, look at this town, now this
town's got a lot of dough. Look, they just built this Community Center.
They could have saved and used a veneer on the outside of this build-
ing. . .they used a solid block construction.
HARBICHT Well, they'll start looking at some of the houses.
LOJESKI Yeah. Go inside and you see this fancy paneling. So an architect could
say, well, I'll design it and I'll make it look really great and push my
project. And, like Bob says, you're up to a six, seven, eight million
dollar addition.
HARBICHT I guess I would like to see us state that we would, what I'll suggest is,
that we say we're looking at this kind of a concept with satellite
buildings. We're looking to have this thing in the three to three and a
half million dollar range, including tax and license, the whole thing.
MARGETT The furnishings also?
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING Well, I think that one thing here is that from an architectural standpoint
he's not going to bid the interior and all new fixtures.
HARBICHT No, no. All of the stuff that he has--the electrical, the ceilings, doing
the rotunda, a new roof, all of that stuff--we're looking at the whole
package in the range of three to three and a half million.
FASCHING Well, this is why I'd like to have Daggett redefine his figures.
WOOLARD What we can do is, call for RFP's and include some cost parameters and
bring this whole package back to Council.
HARBICHT And I think we need to tell you what we're looking at.
FASCHING Well, let's have Daggett develop the parameters or the figures first. . . .
HARBICHT He already has.
LOJESKI He already has, what more is he going to give us?
FASCHING Well, I'd like to make sure that he agrees on this.
HARBICHT I guess what I'm saying is that if. . .
FASCHING Who's going to bid on the interiors and all the fixtures?
HARBICHT . . .he gets down to sharpening his pencil and says, gee, this really comes
up to $4,000,000, maybe his recommendation would be to not include Building
A or make some modifications.
ROSS One of the things, there's a contingency factor in there, and when you're
working with the interior of the existing building, there are some
unpredictable costs in there, and he actually did go up to $4,000,000 in
my discussions with him. . .anywhere from $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
CIRAULO My guess would be the range would be $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
ROSS That's what he said.
FASCHING Well. . .because of contingencies?
ROSS Yes. See, we wouldn't know for sure until you have a structural engineer
go in there and look since you have to decide what you're going to do with
the building, upgrades and that sort of thing, because it will have to be
seismically upgraded.
12
k,.
City, a business permit, to do these productions. He said he just can't
afford to be putting that out also.
MARGETT How much is that, George?
FASCHING I think it's $200, as I recall.
HARBICHT How much?
FASCHING Two hundred dollars, I think. So he'd like us to waive the City permit
fee since these are sort of a community-oriented type of thing. Although
he does charge $8. And, what, we're giving him two performances. What
is our rent on the other performance?
ROSS It normally is $25 an hour, but a two-hour minimum. So he'd be paying at
least $50.
FASCHING It sounds like a worthwhile program, and it's a cultural thing for the
children in the Library and adults, an activity at the Library. And I told
him I would take this to the Council and see if we would waive the business
license permit.
MARGETT O.K. , for one performance he's going to get approximately $900, is that
right, if he sells it out?
FASCHING Ninety-nine people, yeah.
MARGETT Nine hundred dollars, a little bit less than $900, is that right?
FASCHING Yeah.
MARGETT O.K. What does he have to pay for the. . .does he have to pay something for
the rights to be able to put on the show?
FASCHING I don't know how he reimburses his actors or actresses.
ROSS They're working for nothing.
MARGETT They're working for nothing?
ROSS He may have to pay for some scenery fees, have somebody build some scenery,
that may be a cost.
CIRAULO Didn't they do this over at Holly Avenue School one time years ago?
ROSS I don't recall. I know Sierra Madre has. . .he said he was involved with
that.
FASCHING He started that, the Sierra Madre Little Theater.
HARBICHT Let me ask you a question. Let's say that some piano teacher is going to
have a recital for her 10 students and so she wants to use our room and
ask the students' parents to come and hear the recital and. . .has that
happened, that kind of thing? Is it used for that kind of thing?
ROSS For recitals? Yeah, we use it for piano recitals all the time.
HARBICHT What do we charge?
ROSS In that same range, $25 an hour, $50 minimum. . .2 hours minimum,
HARBICHT What's our justification for not charging this guy? He's charging
admission.
ROSS Well, any time you waive charges it's based on the decision of the Library
Board. I mean, it's stated in the policy that this can be waived at their
discretion.
MILLER Has the Library Board ruled on this?
16
L_.
WOOLARD Well, in this market it's slim.
CIRAULO I guess you don't know. But it's not a bad idea to make them aware of it,
I think, again.
WOOLARD Can this be used outside of the redevelopment area?
KINNAHAN There's two issues. The first one, the program didn't work before because
it was--Donna, correct me--it was not very much of an incentive program.
As the program went along, they began to offer more and more incentives
and give more and more of a rebate, and towards the end of the program it
got very successful. If I recollect, there was a waiting list when the
program finally went out of business. . .there was about two or three that
were in line.
ASSISTANT There were a few. Actually, we offered the same program all along, but
PLANNING DIR. what happened was I think everybody was just very leery of it, they didn't
DONNA BUTLER really understand the project. When we had the earthquake, that was the
greatest incentive that we probably had, the Whittier earthquake. Because
that's when the first, which was the Steerburger, took advantage of the
funding. And from that point, we went down. . .everybody kind of started
asking questions. We had our consultants go individually to each of the
businesses. But that really was the first push. We had a few people
before that that did some minor painting, a couple of signs, but up until
that time it was strictly two or three businesses.
WOOLARD In that downtown area someone at that time did go store to store to inform
the people of the program, gave handouts, and they tried to provide all
the information they could on the thing.
CIRAULO That was within the redevelopment area, though.
WOOLARD It coincidentally was within that area. Outside the redevelopment area
you couldn't use the CDBG funds.
FASCHING What's the possibility of. . .there must be a firm or people that specialize
in modernizing and updated community business districts where they give
you a concept and a plan and street, and buildings, and overall design,
and this type of thing. I'd like to think that we could have somebody that
would come in and look at our City and say this is what you should do here,
and you should do here, and that, and give us an idea of a concept and a
design to follow in all aspects. . . .
HARBICHT We've already done it.
WOOLARD That's what we had in the downtown. . . .
FASCHING Well, where is it? What did they say? Everybody was going to follow a
general plan?
HARBICHT No. As a result of their plan, we established design criteria downtown,
we've got a list of colors, we have a list of materials that you have to
use if you're redesigning anything in the downtown area. We put in new
street furniture, we put in new crosswalks, we put in all new street trees
down there. All of that was a result of those recommendations. And so
we have a design criteria for downtown.
FASCHING Where did we drop the ball?
HARBICHT What do you mean?
FASCHING Well, why does it look like it does?
HARBICHT These are privately owned businesses. You can't force them to. . . .
FASCHING Well, that's what I mean. This is why we're here, is to. . .how do we get
those businesses and what steps can we take to get this job done? And what
will it take?
WOOLARD The next step we had was offering free money to. . . .
19
CIRAULO Well, what I would like to see, is there any way we can expand it beyond
the formal redevelopment area, say on First Avenue, for instance?
KINNAHAN I reviewed that with the Agency attorney, and basically, when you go
outside a project area boundary, you have to show a direct relationship
and benefit to the project area. So if you were to go across the street
from the project area, you can probably say, well, that's probably a
benefit. You start getting a block away. . . .
CIRAULO Are there any (inaudible) that we could use to help those people. . .any
programs available?
KINNAHAN Not through the Redevelopment Agency. As I understand, not the Block Grant
because. . . .
CIRAULO In any other way?
•
KINNAHAN And the only other ones would be through private financing, through a
bank. . .there is. . .that's about it.
HARBICHT There is another one. We could take City funds and make them available.
KINNAHAN Well, I'm not sure. It might get (inaudible) .
LOJESKI When you look in that book there are some outstanding examples of junk and
something that really looks nicer.
HARBICHT There's been tremendous improvements.
LOJESKI Tremendous improvements. . .but they're all downtown.
HARBICHT O.K. , well I was just responding to your suggestion that we hire a
consultant. We've already done it.
FASCHING But he didn't tell us, though, of maybe one concept to follow in the
design. In other words, let's take those little stores on Huntington
between Santa Anita. and First. They all look different. Is there
something we could do to make that whole front of those stores all kind
of tie in to one design and still maintain their individuality, but we have
something that really looks like something for the whole length of the
block instead of somebody here with one thing and somebody with something
else. It gives a whole feeling to the block, is what I'm thinking of, and
then continue it on down to Second Avenue.
MARGETT You mean a continuity of a theme, George?
FASCHING Continuity of a theme.
HARBICHT Sort of a mini-mall look.
FASCHING Jump in here.
MARGETT Well, I'm listening here. You have the microphone.
FASCHING But that's the thing I'm talking about. I think these individuals, where
this guy puts on his style awning and the other guy puts on his style
awning, and we don't have any continuity down that street. I think that
Monrovia accomplished that. . .
HARBICHT They don't have continuity. . . .
FASCHING No, wait a minute. . .through the use of trees and street design they gave
it a concept.
MARGETT Well, I think they did, Bob, down Myrtle Avenue, I think they did give it
a concept, a turn-of-the-century type of look.
FASCHING But they did it with trees and street, Bob. They didn't do it with
storefronts. Well, storefronts are nice, but they don't all look alike.
20
HARBICHT But we did it with trees, too. And crosswalks, the monument signs, the
center divider.
WOOLARD If it wasn't for racetrack traffic you could do a lot more down there, but
we need two lanes in each direction to. . . .
FASCHING Well, there's got to be something we have to do, because it can't stay
looking like that for the next 10 years. 'It looks horrible. Baldwin
Avenue, down there, that big old sign sticking out there in front of
Hinshaw's with all those places on it, I don't think that has much
attractiveness or warmth to that street. I think the best looking street
we've got is Live Oak, with the way it's laid out with the center divider
and the trees and the grass and everything, to a degree. But my feeling
is we've got to :ome up with a feeling for our City that it all ties
together. And we have some trees down on there. . .I was up on Foothill
today, we've got some big trees that need trimming, we've got some little
trees that don't need trimming, and it just doesn't look very representa-
tive of the way our City should look. Maybe we need more tree trimmers.
Donna, you wanted to say something?
BUTLER Well, the only thing I was going to point out was, in talking about. . .Will-
dan was the company that was hired to take a look at the whole entire area.
And as Bob mentioned, one of the things that they were trying to do to tie
the area together. . .because one of the biggest problems down there is you
don't have similarity of design in buildings. They talked about
things. . .they felt that trying to create a theme in the downtown area just
wasn't really a theme you could tie all the buildings into. So what they
tried to do was, at that point in time, they tried to do it by the use of
colors, tying it in with the different types of paving materials, street
furniture, and so forth. Because that was the biggest problem that they
had. And it was presented to the Council, and the Council at the time went
along with the fact that it's very difficult to create a theme that doesn't
exist. I mean, you've got buildings that are so different in design and
style, so that was the use of the colors, the types of materials in the
downtown area, and that's why we adopted the downtown design overlay, which
set forth the specific colors, signing. . .which we're still trying to
encourage the replacement of older signs, but it still hasn't taken place
everywhere. But that was a major discussion. We've got a plan, which is
approximately yea big, that was done at the time they discussed all the
different treatments, what could be done and what couldn't be done and so
forth. We used,Block Grant funds to finance that study, and it's just that
I think it's important. . .you know, we did try to come up with something,
but I think it was felt that this was the best way to tie everything
together was through the use of landscaping. . . .
FASCHING Then I guess maybe what we're looking at here is how do we complete the
program that we came up with.
CIRAULO Well, I'd like to ask, if we can, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to ask Howard, do
you have any feel for how the merchants might feel, Howard, about this
idea, or have you heard anything?
HOWARD LAREW I've mainly heard, in South Arcadia, Joe, that people are not real excited
(PRES. , CH. OF with the storefronts down there. Downtown along Huntington Drive has
COMMERCE) certainly improved over the years, and I have no feel for individual
businesses as to whether they would be willing to put up their own funds
to do it. I think with the economy the way it is, they're all looking for
help. And I think they'd probably be receptive to some kind of a program.
CIRAULO I know I hear occasionally from the people on First Avenue south of
Huntington. But the problem, Pete tells us, that's not even the original
redevelopment area. So that's a whole different kind of an idea. . .a whole
different ballgame.
HARBICHT I think that, with regard to downtown. . .I'm talking about Huntington Drive
when I say downtown. . .a number of businesses took advantages of the Block
Grant program that we have. A number of others have gone ahead and
upgraded their storefronts. We still have some that are left to do. And
I don't think that a theme is feasible. I don't think it's feasible to
say anybody that redoes their storefront has to make it look like a western
21
ROSS Yes. They did say that it would be. . .they would give this approval
contingent upon his obtaining Workers Compensation insurance.
HARBICHT Well, what are we talking about it for, then?
MILLER I was going to say, it's not on the agenda tonight so you can't act on it.
FASCHING Well, we're not. . .I'm just throwing this out to Council.
MILLER Oh, O.K.
WOOLARD From the Council he's looking at us to waive the City fee.
ROSS You're talking about the work permit, which I have no knowledge of.
HARBICHT You mean the business license fee, is that what he's talking about getting
waived?
LOJESKI He's running a business and collects the admission. Why. . . .
HARBICHT Why would we do that?
FASCHING Well, I think the only reason we would think about it is, number one, it
brings a little cultural theater to the Library for the benefit of the
students and adults. I don't know what his expenses are, but I know he
has rehearsals for these plays and things like that. He's going to put
out $1,250 up front to State Fund, he tells me, to acquire the Workman's
Comp. So his attitude was. . .he's very nice about the whole thing, I mean
he's a resident of the City and says that he just doesn't have a whole lot
of money to be putting out on this type of thing. I don't think the guy's
going to get rich on it, myself, but he'll make a few bucks probably. It's
not a big deal. So, I don't know. . .whichever way you gentlemen want to
go. But you have to look at it, is it bringing something of value to the
City even though he is going to get reimbursed on some level for it, but
is it important to the City and the community.
MARGETT I always go back to precedent. In other words, we let this guy do it,
then. . .you know, I can remember here at that last Council meeting somebody
came in and wanted fees waived for putting in a generator for taking
pictures over at the Arboretum, and we said no. I don't know whether or
not you can all of a sudden say, well, yes, we'll allow the show at the
Library, but we're not going to be able to allow somebody to make a few
nickels putting on a production over at the Arboretum. Nobody's cutting
a fat hog, I don't think. But by the same token, I think we better
establish a policy so that if something down the road comes, you're going
to be consistent.
FASCHING We already have a policy. I think we have to decide each one, if we feel
if it's a benefit to the community, and then make the decision. I don't
happen to feel that the generator situation in the Arboretum, making a
commercial film, is of any benefit to the City. But little kids going to
a play at the Library might be a different situation.
HARBICHT Well, we can't make a decision right. . .though I guess I'm not in favor of
waiving the fee.
FASCHING O.K.
MARGETT I wouldn't be either.
FASCHING O.K. I just wanted to get a feeling out of you gentlemen.
2. BUSINESS O.K. We'll go on to the next item on the agenda. . .the business districts.
DISTRICTS - All right. Then the next item is Redevelopment on the business district.
MAYOR FASCHING Prior to that, I'd like to make one little announcement here, which I think
you're all aware of. There is a conference in San Jose on August 6 and
7 concerning downtown revitalization, Main Street prototypes. And I
intend to go to this. This might be of interest to us down the road
concerning our own business district. So I wanted to remind you of that
17
conference. And we have Mr. Larew from our Chamber of Commerce in the
audience. He is available to us for any item we may want to ask
him, on behalf of the Chamber. And I think the main point of this
discussion on business districts is a general feeling--and correct me if
I'm wrong--that we feel that there needs to be something done with our
business districts. The business district on Huntington Drive, the
business district on First Avenue for what's there, but just revitaliza-
tion. Baldwin Avenue falls into this perspective also, as does Live Oak
Avenue down in South Arcadia. And I think that this has been talked back
and forth in years, but nothing really being accomplished in it when we
look at other cities and what they've done with their business districts.
So, with that I'll open it up to general discussion. Mr. Harbicht.
HARBICHT Well, we've got this memo dated 6/10 on things that have been done, can
be done, and the one thing I see missing from here is this ^rogram that
we've had for redoing the facades of businesses in the downy .in area.
WOOLARD We've put together a book of before and afters. Some of these .11 be done
with a funding program that we had through the Block Grant Program. The
others were done individually.
CIRAULO Do we still have that program available? It was, what, a 50-50 thing, is
that how it worked?
WOOLARD _ It's still possible, but it's questionable as to the value of it at this
point.
HARBICHT How many did we do, or were done, under that program?
WOOLARD We did. . .about 16 or so places got some funds. Some were complete facade
removals and others were just for signs and awnings. So some were major
things and others were minor. The problem is that the amount of funding
that you now have to devote to your person of low-moderate income, that
percentage has increased. So the amount of money that would be available
for this program is substantially reduced. The fact that you have to go
through Mavis Bacon for the contractors and stuff makes it difficult to
find somebody, and the administration costs of monitoring all of their
employees and everything else makes it not a very cost-effective program.
But there are other ways the same types of things can be funded. Loans
through redevelopment agencies rather than just loans for other types of
(inaudible) might be available rather than the Block Grants. They're not
as constrained as the Block Grants were. Maybe it will have some. . . .
KINNAHAN In your package that Bob referred to, number seven refers to information
on a possible agency pilot commercial investor rebate loan program. That
deals exactly with picking up where the CDBG program left off. Where the
Redevelopment Agency could, in the downtown, finance a rehab commercial
loan program, or a grant program, (inaudible) program. We've done some
initial research into programs offered through other cities and other
agencies. We've researched the downtown as to the possible need for such.
The need is there. The program exists in other communities. We have funds
available in Arcadia to create such a program if the Agency wants it, in
this case the Agency. We can certainly come back to you with a clear
program concept where we can attack the small problem like signs. We can
probably create an architectural incentive program where there's two or
three architects who can assist a business. We help to pay for it, to
encourage them to take advantage of our design criteria, and then we can
also provide the rebate loan, the rebate to them to do the work. And it's
being modeled very much on the CDBG program.
CIRAULO Well, I like that whole idea.
HARBICHT Yeah, but we've already done it.
KINNAHAN We have, but there's quite a few more to do. We're not done yet.
CIRAULO There's a lot more to do.
HARBICHT The others didn't move when we offered it before. What's the probability
that they would move if we offered it again?
18
L_.
WOOLARD Well, in this market it's slim.
CIRAULO I guess you don't know. But it's not a bad idea to make them aware of it,
I think, again.
WOOLARD Can this be used outside of the redevelopment area?
KINNAHAN There's two issues. The first one, the program didn't work before because
it was--Donna, correct me--it was not very much of an incentive program.
As the program went along, they began to offer more and more incentives
and give more and more of a rebate, and towards the end of the program it
got very successful. If I recollect, there was a waiting list when the
program finally went out of business. . .there was about two or three that
were in line.
ASSISTANT There were a few. Actually, we offered the same program all along, but
PLANNING DIR. what happened was I think everybody was just very leery of it, they didn't
DONNA BUTLER really understand the project. When we had the earthquake, that was the
greatest incentive that we probably had, the Whittier earthquake. Because
that's when the first, which was the Steerburger, took advantage of the
funding. And from that point, we went down. . .everybody kind of started
asking questions. We had our consultants go individually to each of the
businesses. But that really was the first push. We had a few people
before that that did some minor painting, a couple of signs, but up until
that time it was strictly two or three businesses.
WOOLARD In that downtown area someone at that time did go store to store to inform
the people of the program, gave handouts, and they tried to provide all
the information they could on the thing.
CIRAULO That was within the redevelopment area, though.
WOOLARD It coincidentally was within that area. Outside the redevelopment area
you couldn't use the CDBG funds.
FASCHING What's the possibility of. . .there must be a firm or people that specialize
in modernizing and updated community business districts where they give
you a concept and a plan and street, and buildings, and overall design,
and this type of thing. I'd like to think that we could have somebody that
would come in and look at our City and say this is what you should do here,
and you should do here, and that, and give us an idea of a concept and a
design to follow in all aspects. . . .
HARBICHT We've already done it.
WOOLARD That's what we had in the downtown. . . .
FASCHING Well, where is it? What did they say? Everybody was going to follow a
general plan?
HARBICHT No. As a result of their plan, we established design criteria downtown,
we've got a list of colors, we have a list of materials that you have to
use if you're redesigning anything in the downtown area. We put in new
street furniture, we put in new crosswalks, we put in all new street trees
down there. All of that was a result of those recommendations. And so
we have a design criteria for downtown.
FASCHING Where did we drop the ball?
HARBICHT What do you mean?
FASCHING Well, why does it look like it does?
HARBICHT These are privately owned businesses. You can't force them to. . . .
FASCHING Well, that's what I mean. This is why we're here, is to. . .how do we get
those businesses and what steps can we take to get this job done? And what
will it take?
WOOLARD The next step we had was offering free money to. . . .
19
CIRAULO Well, what I would like to see, is there any way we can expand it beyond
the formal redevelopment area, say on First Avenue, for instance?
KINNAHAN I reviewed that with the Agency attorney, and basically, when you go
outside a project area boundary, you have to show a direct relationship
and benefit to the project area. So if you were to go across the street
from the project area, you can probably say, well, that's probably a
benefit. You start getting a block away. . . .
CIRAULO Are there any (inaudible) that we could use to help those people. . .any
programs available?
KINNAHAN Not through the Redevelopment Agency. As I understand, not the Block Grant
because. . . .
CIRAULO In any other way?
•
KINNAHAN And the only other ones would be through private financing, through a
bank. . .there is. . .that's about it.
HARBICHT There is another one. We could take City funds and make them available.
KINNAHAN Well, I'm not sure. It might get (inaudible) .
LOJESKI When you look in that book there are some outstanding examples of junk and
something that really looks nicer.
HARBICHT There's been tremendous improvements.
LOJESKI Tremendous improvements. . .but they're all downtown.
HARBICHT O.K. , well I was just responding to your suggestion that we hire a
consultant. We've already done it.
FASCHING But he didn't tell us, though, of maybe one concept to follow in the
design. In other words, let's take those little stores on Huntington
between Santa Anita. and First. They all look different. Is there
something we could do to make that whole front of those stores all kind
of tie in to one design and still maintain their individuality, but we have
something that really looks like something for the whole length of the
block instead of somebody here with one thing and somebody with something
else. It gives a whole feeling to the block, is what I'm thinking of, and
then continue it on down to Second Avenue.
MARGETT You mean a continuity of a theme, George?
FASCHING Continuity of a theme.
HARBICHT Sort of a mini-mall look.
FASCHING Jump in here.
MARGETT Well, I'm listening here. You have the microphone.
FASCHING But that's the thing I'm talking about. I think these individuals, where
this guy puts on his style awning and the other guy puts on his style
awning, and we don't have any continuity down that street. I think that
Monrovia accomplished that. . .
HARBICHT They don't have continuity. . . .
FASCHING No, wait a minute. . .through the use of trees and street design they gave
it a concept.
MARGETT Well, I think they did, Bob, down Myrtle Avenue, I think they did give it
a concept, a turn-of-the-century type of look.
FASCHING But they did it with trees and street, Bob. They didn't do it with
storefronts. Well, storefronts are nice, but they don't all look alike.
20
HARBICHT But we did it with trees, too. And crosswalks, the monument signs, the
center divider.
WOOLARD If it wasn't for racetrack traffic you could do a lot more down there, but
we need two lanes in each direction to. . . .
FASCHING Well, there's got to be something we have to do, because it can't stay
looking like that for the next 10 years. 'It looks horrible. Baldwin
Avenue, down there, that big old sign sticking out there in front of
Hinshaw's with all those places on it, I don't think that has much
attractiveness or warmth to that street. I think the best looking street
we've got is Live Oak, with the way it's laid out with the center divider
and the trees and the grass and everything, to a degree. But my feeling
is we've got to :ome up with a feeling for our City that it all ties
together. And we have some trees down on there. . .I was up on Foothill
today, we've got some big trees that need trimming, we've got some little
trees that don't need trimming, and it just doesn't look very representa-
tive of the way our City should look. Maybe we need more tree trimmers.
Donna, you wanted to say something?
BUTLER Well, the only thing I was going to point out was, in talking about. . .Will-
dan was the company that was hired to take a look at the whole entire area.
And as Bob mentioned, one of the things that they were trying to do to tie
the area together. . .because one of the biggest problems down there is you
don't have similarity of design in buildings. They talked about
things. . .they felt that trying to create a theme in the downtown area just
wasn't really a theme you could tie all the buildings into. So what they
tried to do was, at that point in time, they tried to do it by the use of
colors, tying it in with the different types of paving materials, street
furniture, and so forth. Because that was the biggest problem that they
had. And it was presented to the Council, and the Council at the time went
along with the fact that it's very difficult to create a theme that doesn't
exist. I mean, you've got buildings that are so different in design and
style, so that was the use of the colors, the types of materials in the
downtown area, and that's why we adopted the downtown design overlay, which
set forth the specific colors, signing. . .which we're still trying to
encourage the replacement of older signs, but it still hasn't taken place
everywhere. But that was a major discussion. We've got a plan, which is
approximately yea big, that was done at the time they discussed all the
different treatments, what could be done and what couldn't be done and so
forth. We used,Block Grant funds to finance that study, and it's just that
I think it's important. . .you know, we did try to come up with something,
but I think it was felt that this was the best way to tie everything
together was through the use of landscaping. . . .
FASCHING Then I guess maybe what we're looking at here is how do we complete the
program that we came up with.
CIRAULO Well, I'd like to ask, if we can, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to ask Howard, do
you have any feel for how the merchants might feel, Howard, about this
idea, or have you heard anything?
HOWARD LAREW I've mainly heard, in South Arcadia, Joe, that people are not real excited
(PRES. , CH. OF with the storefronts down there. Downtown along Huntington Drive has
COMMERCE) certainly improved over the years, and I have no feel for individual
businesses as to whether they would be willing to put up their own funds
to do it. I think with the economy the way it is, they're all looking for
help. And I think they'd probably be receptive to some kind of a program.
CIRAULO I know I hear occasionally from the people on First Avenue south of
Huntington. But the problem, Pete tells us, that's not even the original
redevelopment area. So that's a whole different kind of an idea. . .a whole
different ballgame.
HARBICHT I think that, with regard to downtown. . .I'm talking about Huntington Drive
when I say downtown. . .a number of businesses took advantages of the Block
Grant program that we have. A number of others have gone ahead and
upgraded their storefronts. We still have some that are left to do. And
I don't think that a theme is feasible. I don't think it's feasible to
say anybody that redoes their storefront has to make it look like a western
21
saloon, or whatever we decide is the theme. I just don't think that's
feasible because we're having a hard enough time just getting the majority
of them to redo their fronts. I mean, it's taken us years. But I think
the best that we can realistically shoot for is to try to get some of those
other ones that are in pretty bad shape to redo their storefronts within
the color and materials guidelines that we have in force down there, which
they would have to use if they do redo it. So the real question is, how
can we get them to do it? And it sounds to me that maybe using some
redevelopment funds and putting a priority on that in that we ask that some
significant amount of staff time be invested in contacting people, saying
the City is willing to put up this much money, or whatever, to help you
do this. And I think the possibility of maybe having two or three
architects who are tuned into the program, and we could say if you'll
contact one of these people, or we'll have one of them contact you, is the
only way we're going to accomplish it. Because we've got all kinds of
absentee owners down there who don't see it. . . .
FASCHING Well, I agree with what you're saying. I think. . .probably a concept we'd
like to see, but I think maybe it might be well for us to concentrate on
what we can do. In other words, what we can do with our streets, what we
can do with our landscaping and our trees, to make it much more desirable.
Then we go. . . .
•
HARBICHT Like what?
FASCHING Well, I don't know, but we can certainly. . . .
HARBICHT We put in all new street trees three or four years ago. . .
FASCHING Well, maybe there's some more we can do, I don't know.
HARBICHT . . .we redid the railroad bridge, we got the center divider, and we put in
crosswalks. I don't know what's left.
FASCHING Well, O.K. It's always good. . .we can still take another look at it from
that standpoint. That's what we can do. What we can't do is come up with
a theme or this other thing. But to try to make available to these
business owners what we can to rehabilitate their storefronts, and if they
don't want to do it then what do we have, as a body, that we can do by
resolution to make them. . .force them to get into a. . . .
HARBICHT Force them to do it?
FASCHING Well, I don't know, maybe condemn their property. . .they're in a
redevelopment area.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, you know, I talked to a realtor, a prominent realtor in town,
and we were talking much in the same vein that the Council is talking right
now. She said that invariably the owners or the tenants that are in these
small stores really don't want anything more to be done on the front of
those stores, because invariably then the landlord wants to raise rents
and they cannot afford rents. . .now this is what she said. She said that
there's nothing that would really induce. . .and what you need on Huntington
Drive, if we're still talking Huntington Drive, is something that would
induce foot traffic on Huntington Drive. There's nobody that wants to park
over in back of Jimmy Chin's building or in front of the post office and
walk across the street and walk up and down Huntington Drive to be able
to buy something. There's just not that inducement. I was thinking just ,
the other day. . .and I don't know whether staff has had any consideration
about this. . .but we've got, apparently, a post office that's going to be
torn down and refurbished. I think there's a ton of foot traffic in front
of that post office. I don't know whether we should not consider
putting. . .
[End of Tape 1 - Side 2, beginning of Tape 2 - Side 1]
. . .stuff money into it and let's get block grants, let's get. . .and so on
and so forth. . .and we might be just trying to chase a dead horse. It might
22
11
very well be that that area has purely lost it's economic use for that
area. It just may not be. . . .
Why?
HARGETT . . .where it is. And that's a natural transition that's taken place.
FASCHING Well, what do you do with it then?
CIRAULO With a lack of parking, that could very well be.
FASCHING What do we do with it?
LOJESKI That's your whole key. The whole key to the situation, George. Look at
the north side versus the south side.
MARGETT You say what do you do with it. . .excuse me, Dennis, I cut you off. I
didn't mean to.
LOJESKI No, I interrupted you. But I'm just saying, look at the north side versus
the south side of the street between First Avenue and Santa Anita. I look
at it every day. The north side has plenty of traffic. Why? Why do the
storefronts look better? Why do you have businesses proliferating on that
side? You've got parking for the customers. The minute you take parking ,
away, such as you have done, or there's a lack of 'it. . .we haven't
done. . .but that's the way the area developed. The businesses are in
shambles on the south side of the street.
MARGETT Well, see, staff will tell you that there's sufficient parking in the area
to be able to take care of both,the north and south sides.
LOJESKI Gockley's is gone because Gockley's, first of all, had two parking spaces
behind their store and people couldn't come in there. They couldn't
function.
FASCHING Gockley's, I think, was a result of being gobbled up by people that. . .all
the wholesale stationery stores.
LOJESKI But that's the value of retail business today. You have to make yourself
available to the customer. If the customer is going to come into a mama
and poppa area, there's got to be incentive. And if you can't park right
there. . .you know, a signal, a better situation for that intersection of
Huntington and First was put in. . .what did it do? It took parking spaces
away on the street. There was no additional parking to the poor businesses
on the west side of the street, and that stationery store went under. In
other words, it was just another thing that happened down there.
FASCHING Then I guess we can throw First Avenue into the same category. Maybe it's
beyond it's, commercial use.
LOJESKI I don't know. It's all in the redevelopment area.
FASCHING I come back to the question, what do we do with it? Just let it sit?
HARGETT No.
FASCHING What?
LOJESKI I think you've given incentives to the people in that area, much more than
we've ever been able to give, than we've ever done in West Arcadia, South
Arcadia, Foothill Boulevard. We haven't gotten into any assistance
programs up in those areas.
MARGETT We can't do everything. In other words, if it's true what you said, that
we have provided all those incentives, City government, local government,
has been able to provide those incentives and we've gone the extra mile
and we've had the staff reports and we've had the consultants go ahead and
look at those areas and still things haven't clicked, then I would say that
it could very well be that we've lost our use. for that land. When you find
condominiums coming right back up to the developments that are all on the
23
south side of Huntington Drive, you're not going to go in there and lay
those waste and build more parking area, I don't think. And I would say
that it may very well be, Mr. Mayor, to be able to. . .and I'm sure that a
feasibility study as to what that area should be may be just what you want
to do.
LOJESKI The Willdan study did that. The Willdan study addressed the south side
of Huntington Drive and said if it's going to remain in the long-range plan
of things a business commercial area, there has to be parking created.
And their recommendation was to take the north side of Alta Street and
devote that to parking. So you've got now developable sites, O.K.? You've
got the availability, hypothetically, of AT&T to come in, let's say, and
build a three-story building. . . .
FASCHING Where?
LOJESKI On Huntington Drive, let's say.
FASCHING Between First and Santa Anita?
LOJESKI Could be. Could be. You've got an anchor on one side which is a bank,
George, O.K.? It's the only decent building, I think, in that whole block.
FASCHING Home Savings?
LOJESKI Sure.
MARGETT And they're short of parking.
LOJESKI Not really.
HARGETT Well, their parking is across the street. . .is that what somebody's going
to do to cash their. . . .
LOJESKI No, but that's my point, O.K.? If you cannot go to a mama and poppa store,
then what's the incentive to go there? You're going to go to a mall,
you're going to go to Monrovia, or wherever is convenient.
MARGETT But what I'm saying, the next step, if we're going to generate parking,
where are you going to generate it? Go in there and lay waste some of
those condominiums that are brand new?
LOJESKI From between First and Second, you're stuck. Between Santa Anita and First
Avenue you're not stuck. By that I'm saying just by the age of the
structures.
HARBICHT Yeah, but you're stuck from a cost standpoint.
LOJESKI Sure. No doubt about it. I'm just saying we have a study that was done.
If I'm wrong Bill, that was one of three studies over the last 25 years,
I think, that's been done. They have all addressed the south side of
Huntington Drive in that very direct (inaudible) .
MARGETT In other words, does that study say that that is a viable economic entity
on the south side of Huntington Drive, we can really make some money there
if we provide parking?
LOJESKI If you have parking.
FASCHING Well, I doubt that very much.
MARGETT So do I.
LOJESKI George, it's undevelopable from a retail standpoint. . . .
FASCHING We already have all this development land out there that we want to develop
anyway. What we want to do is clean up the looks of the business district.
We don't have the parking, they're stuck there. And if we don't clean them
up, we don't have the parking, what are we going to do with them?
24
( )
HARBICHT I think we've got two different things here we're talking about. One is
parking, that's a whole separate issue. And if we want to take that
up. . .there's no question that parking would help the viability of that
area. But the cost of providing that parking is so astronomical that I
don't think that. . . .
FASCHING Plus the cost of relocating all those tenants and the (inaudible) . It's
not even in the ballpark.
HARBICHT The second issue is to say, what can we do to clean up that area, to get
the rest of it looking nice. And I guess I come back to what I said
before, is I think that I would be willing to entertain the idea of using,
maybe, some redevelopment money and putting together a program much like
we had before but maybe with a little less red tape. But basically, what
you're going to be doing when you cut it all away is you're saying to the
owner, "If you'll spend $30,000 fixing up the front of this building, we'll
pay for $15,000 of it." That's what it'comes down to.
FASCHING But you know what? It wouldn't cost him $30,000.
HARBICHT I just use that as an example. I don't know what it would cost.
FASCHING They don't want to spend five grand.
HARBICHT But I specifically reject the idea that we say, "Well, if you won't do it
voluntarily, somehow we're going to make you do it." Because I won't vote
to do that. I don't know if it's possible, but if it was, I wouldn't vote
to do it.
CIRAULO They're all doing so poorly, I just don't think they have the money to. . . .
FASCHING Who's they? Not the property owners, the guys renting the buildings are
doing poorly.
CIRAULO Yeah, the businesses that are there.
FASCHING The guys that own the property paid for it a long time ago.
CIRAULO He doesn't care.
FASCHING It's all lint in his pocket.
CIRAULO I'm talking about the poor little business guy who's there.
FASCHING That's right. So then our City slinks along with these businesses looking
like heck on Huntington Drive. The property owner puts all that paid-off
building money in his pocket. And we can end up with people doing pawn
shops with gates on the front and all that type of stuff.
MARGETT We're getting back to the thesis that I put out on the table, Mr. Mayor.
Maybe you have lost that use of that property.
FASCHING O.K. , then I'll pose this question to you--what are we going to do with
it?
MARGETT O.K. , well, we're going full circle here. If that is viable, if we know
for sure that we can make things click down there by providing Block Grant
funds or similar programs, I would be in favor of that. But there's no
sense in going in there and giving a Block Grant-type program and still
have people worried that their rental rates are going to go up. And we
haven't really generated any of the income or the tax that we can get to
substantiate spending the money.
CIRAULO See, I think they're going to get even less traffic and do less business
once Nordstrom's moves in and the mall has got a whole new thing.
FASCHING I think we should go on to the next subject. . .we'll never come to a. . . .
CIRAULO Well, I know, but what do we do with it?
25
FASCHING Yeah, what do we do with it? That's what we're here for, to decide what
to do with it, not to find out all the economical problems of those guys
selling costumes and everything.
MARGETT I think that a lot of it. . .and we're sitting here trying to make that
decision, Mr. Mayor. But, you know, we've got the Chamber of Commerce and
we've got the owners of the building, and we've also got the tenants of
the building. They should be saying, hey, this is what would be beneficial
for this downtown area. And I don't hear them saying anything.
CIRAULO Well, let me ask, Pete, you attend the Downtown Business Association
meetings occasionally. What do they say, what's the feel, what do you
hear?
KINNAHAN I don't recall that really coming up. It's, probably a question -~at can
be posed to them :o get their input.
LOJESKI I'll give you an answer to that, Joe. Bob and I, as two candidates for
the City Council, attended a meeting with the downtown Arcadia business
merchants. Their key question to all the candidates is what are you going
to do to protect. . .I'll give you an example. . .the guy that owns and
operates Rod's Diner says, "What are you going to do to protect my business
so I can stay in business at the expense of what's going to develop—at the
Ford agency? What is your concept, Mr. Councilman? What are you going
to do so my business doesn't suffer?" That's a tough question to answer.
That's where their concern was. The old, established guy, he'll continue
to operate down there.
FASCHING I don't know. That's an old, established restaurant, Rod's. Well, the
thing here is that we can go over all of these problems to the shop owner,
the retailer, the property owner, but we're not getting to the solving of
the problem. If it looks like hell, how do we make it look better
for. . .and you can't convince me that if everything looks better they're
not going to enjoy more business, with one problem in mind is the parking
on the south side of Huntington. But if you continue to allow these to
exist and continue to deteriorate, and the lower class retailer is getting
in there because the place looks like hell in a period of time, that
doesn't help our City.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, would you suggest that we have a session with representatives
of the downtown owners and the tenants and the Chamber of Commerce and see
what they would think that would be beneficial for them down there?
FASCHING No, I wouldn't.
MARGETT Well, how can we sit here and tell them that this is going to be good for
them?
FASCHING, O.K. , all I'm looking at is this. We're probably looking at maybe eight
or nine property owners involved in this. Any businessman in his right
mind would not tell us that improvements of the business district would
not be beneficial to him. So if I wanted him to come in and tell me how
to handle the property owners and get them to do what they should do to
improve their buildings, that's one thing. But they can't tell us that.
They can only tell us what they consider is a good retailing situation.
And we know what a good retailing situation is. Not a deteriorating
retailing situation. And I think I come back to Bob, we have to have
somebody that goes out and calls on these property owners and convinces
them that it's in the best interest of our City, and them, and their future
to participate in an upgrade of their business front, and try and do that.
MARGETT You know, George, I think that's fine. I just don't know that we're
hitting nails on heads and getting to the root of the problem. Putting
a new storefront and then saying everybody is going to come in here and
buy new watches or whatever this guy is trying to sell over there, I don't
know whether they're going to be able to do that.
FASCHING Well, then, let's blow it up. We'll get rid of it.
26
MARGETT So everybody can walk down or drive down Huntington Drive and say, "This
is beautiful"?
FASCHING You're saying just because. . .I'm not talking about. . .you're saying just
because we say new storefronts, new awnings, and it looks nice, and paint
and everything else, that they're going to sell more watches? I can't
guarantee that, Bob. But I can guarantee it's going to sure make our City
look a lot better.
MARGETT No question about it.
FASCHING That's what I'm interested in.
MARGETT O.K. , but how is this guy going to substantiate the spending of $30,000
or $15,000 or whatever?
FASCHING You don't know. . .Bob, to fix up the storefront on one of those small
buildings, I would estimate would be $3,000, $3,500. Buy a canopy and
paint. Maybe some new facade on it with the split brick or something.
You're not talking $30,000. I do my carwash once a year. I make the whole
thing look different, it doesn't cost me more than $8,000 or $9,000.
CIRAULO You're saying split that cost with them? The City split the cost with. . . .
FASCHING Do we have the money available in Community Block Grant funds?
KINNAHAN Redevelopment funds.
FASCHING Sure. We have to have a program that we're going to go out there and sell
these people.
LOJESKI What about this Business Improvement District? What is that all about?
WOOLARD That's like an ABA, who had formed their own group. And they can be taxed
on their business licenses to put money into their association. They then
sponsor events and do other promotional activities and stuff to encourage
activities, hopefully, spending the money within their district.
CIRAULO I have to agree with everybody else. There is very little that they can
do that's going to encourage more business because there's no parking.
So the business they have now, that's pretty much the business they're
going to get. But what we could do is improve the appearance of the
street, I guess that's what we're talking about, right?
WOOLARD I think you've got a real problem down there. . .I don't want to say real
problem. . .you have a problem in that it's not going to be a retail area.
You can fix up the storefronts to look fantastic, and you're still not
going to get anybody selling anything because that's not where people go
to buy. They go to the malls, they go to the mini malls.
FASCHING Well, not necessarily. They're all open, doing business.
LOJESKI Look what's on the north side, George. You've got. . . .
FASCHING There's vacancies on the north side, too. There's vacancies. Gockley's
has been vacant for a year.
LOJESKI It's been sold.
FASCHING Well, just recently.
HARBICHT Are you saying, if it's moving away from retail, the retail office. . . .
LOJESKI You're moving into offices. . .you've got attorneys on the north side, you've
got a hair dressing salon, which is a destination that women. . . .
FASCHING O.K. , whether it be an attorney's office or hair. . .I don't care if it's
retail. I just want it to look good. I don't care what's in there.
HARBICHT How many want it to look good?
27
-p.
CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
1
K
I.y
to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
2
4.'k
Y�
ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
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E D I T E D
TRANS C R I P T
(Insofar as decipherable)
RELATING TO
ARCADIA CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION
JUNE 24, 1992
Ai a
, 14. 1
, 2)5 /1
-p.
CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
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to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
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Y�
ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
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FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
to it, however, another one which is potentially unknown as far as its
impact. They just simply say that they might want to require that
agencies would receive in tax increment only what they've legally
contracted for. In our case, we have bonded indebtedness, that's $330,000
a year. Well, the rest of it is often pay as you go. We pay as we go.
They would sort of take that away. They would simply give us in tax
increment $330,000 because that's contractually established.
•
50
1 - TTh
1
FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
4
LOJESKI Hasn't Kent looked at this. . . .
FASCHING You're bringing up a lot of other questions. You say you want to be
guaranteed the extra square feet will be good for another 25 years, and
all those things.
LOJESKI I didn't use the word guarantee. I want to be assured that what we're
talking is going to be usable for the next period of time.
ROSS It's 10 years that I said would be the absolute guarantee that would. . .the
capacity would be guaranteed for that time. Beyond that it's difficult
to tell, the changes that could occur. Certainly, when we do this it would
be a 25-year building. But it could be at capacity in 10 years.
CIRAULO And what might extend that, too, is. . .I understand it's just preliminary
at this point, but I understand the School District is having some
preliminary discussions about some way to access the Library by way of
computer and keep most of the students at the school.
ROSS They already do. They do access the Library by computer, but actually what
that does is tell them what we have so they know that we have it before
they come over. And that's primarily the way it's used now. They
originally wanted a retrieval system, and then they couldn't afford the
people to come and retrieve the items at the time because of their budget.
But they still have access to our collection by computer.
CIRAULO They have that now?
ROSS They have that now.
HARBICHT Well, some comments that I have on this is, one, the question of where the
money is going to come from. I think this is why we have to prioritize
our capital improvements. We have the Capital Improvements Budget, we have
money in it, we have receipts going into it from the Track and the other
monies that we're putting into that. So if we decide that we're going to
build this Library, or build this addition to the Library, the money is
available in the Capital Improvements Fund. That's what the Capital
Improvements Fund is for. And if that takes up most of the money there,
then any other capital improvements that we want, such as an auditorium,
whatever, are just going to have to be put off two or three years until
we build it up to the point where we can do it. That's the way we've
always done it in this City. And I guess I'll express the opinion that,
in my mind, this is the number one priority. And so I would be in favor
of using the Capital Improvements Funds for doing the Library. I guess
the question of how long the Library is going. . .how long this would
last. . .Kent, I'm going to argue with you a little bit on this. I don't
know why it would only last for 10 years. I don't think we foresee any
significant population growth here in Arcadia. As a matter of fact, the
consultants' report that we had visualized almost no growth.
ROSS Well, I didn't say it wouldn't last more than 10 years; I said I couldn't
guarantee it. I could absolutely guarantee that it would certainly have
sufficient space for growth up to 10 years. After that, there are a lot
of things we don't know, as I explained, I think, the last time. . .particul-
ar, say, reference volumes that were only two volumes at one time are now
10, 15, and they've grown by 10 times. But we're still required to have
those. So the same thing, to serve the community in this much space 10
years ago now takes several shelves.
HARBICHT I understand that. I guess I'm thinking in terms of, you know, one of the
things that would have the greatest influence on the size of the Library
needed is the number of people using it. I think the number of people
using it is pretty closely tied to population growth. And so I don't
visualize a huge increase in the number of people using it. In regard to
the reference volumes, that's true and I know that the amount of
information in the world is constantly expanding and we seem to be putting
more of it on our shelves. But it could be, and I think it's very likely,
that 10 or 15 years from now an awful lot of that is going to be on laser
disk and you're not even going to have those volumes. . .you're just going
to pop a laser disk in and read what you want, and print out the part you
7
� t
want. Which means that actually there would be a shrinking demand for
space there. But I guess in my mind. . .Dennis asked the question, how long
would this be good for. I'm fairly convinced that this kind of an
expansion is going to be good for more than 10 years, and I don't think
20 years. . .my guess, and I'm not a library expert, but my guess just based
on what I see in trends is I think we're pretty safe in saying that if we
were to do this it's going to serve the needs of Arcadia for 20 years.
CIRAULO Well, that's a good question to ask. How much extra space do we need to
last us for 25 years?
HARBICHT Because if it was only going to be 10 years, I'd be pretty reluctant to
do this. If I thought 10 years from now we were going to have to tear
everything down and build a new Library, I might say maybe we ought to just
struggle along with what we've got for three more and save up the money
and then build a brand new Library. So, that's my feeling.
FASCHING I feel that it's going to last us for 20, 25 years. The one we have was '
conceivably out of space 20 years ago, and we've been using that for 20
years since then.
•
[End of Tape 1 - Side 1, beginning of Tape 1 - side 2]
HARBICHT . . .in terms of making a decision as to whether or not we should do this
is how much it's going to cost. Now, we have a cost estimate here that
I think Bob Daggett gave us, but we also have the cost estimate for the
new building, which the consultants gave us a year or so ago, two years
ago maybe, and some of their unit costs are particularly high. And so I
don't know if they're high estimators or Bob's a low estimator, or if the
truth lies somewhere in the middle, but we're talking significant
difference in estimated costs.
ROSS I spoke to Bob Daggett on that issue and we discussed it at length. And
using the same criteria that he used for this plan, it was his feeling that
that same building, even nearly 60,000 square feet, would be under
$8,000,000. He gave a number of reasons why he felt that buildings were
overbuilt or built way above cost. And I think he may have mentioned some
of them in the last study session. But that was his feeling, and that's
the way he's based this cost. So if you were comparing this to a new
building, you'd have to use the same criteria, and based on that criteria,
his criteria would be about $7,500,000 for the facility recommended
originally by. . . .
HARBICHT Well, the shell or the whole ball of wax?
ROSS The whole thing, he said. That's what I kept asking him, I said does this
include fees and everything? He said yes.
HARBICHT And interior?
CIRAULO As opposed to this recommended idea, which is about $2.3 million, right?
ROSS Well, this whole thing, though, this whole thing is $3.5 million.
CIRAULO Three point five.
WOOLARD I think what Kent was comparing was that the plan for a new Library was
like, $16,000,000. The same numbers applied from Daggett's figures, the
new Library would only cost $7,500,000 to $8,000,000. So there's quite
a large difference. But a lot of it may have to do with materials and
other details that Bob has a different image of than the other people who
may have been, let's say, going with a Cadillac. I really don't think
you're going to have a handle on it until you actually have an architect
getting down to the more. . . .
CIRAULO Well, it seems to me that t?-at's what we need to do next, is to have an
architect look at. . .we all seem to like this concept. . .have an architect
put pencil to paper and come back to us.
8
FASCHING Well, we have to advertise for an architect.
CIRAULO Well, go out to bid, I guess.
WOOLARD Daggett can still help us a lot if he wants to volunteer.
FASCHING Well, I think he'd be perfectly willing to volunteer to help out on this
thing even though he can't bid on it. But I think he's involved himself
on a volunteer basis with us, which I think is great, and I would certainly
like to keep him involved, to what extent the staff might want to, to
advise us. I personally feel that we probably get ripped off every time
we build something in this City.
MARGETT Well, that's true, Mr. Mayor, and I think that's where Bob Daggett's coming
from. I'm sure that there are architects out there that will build you
a library for $20,000,000. There's no problem doing it. Or ten or eight.
And I think that that's the key in the whole thing. I think what Bob
Daggett wants to be able to do is say, hey, we have $3,000,000, or whatever
we're coming up with, five, or what your budget is, make that thing work
at $5,000,000 and make it look like we're going to spend $20,000,000. And
I think that's what we should be doing.
FASCHING Well, I think we should be taking advantage of this type of expertise and
help that can be furnished to us by one of our commissioners, that's what
they're there for. They're residents that are interested in the City and
the future of it, too. That's why I propose that we settle on this
concept, we're happy with it. We have a budget, we know where the money
is coming from. We tell Daggett and the Librarian this is what we want
to do, and let Daggett put the finishing touches on it so we know, and let
him kind of help us as we want him to in the process of. . . .
MARGETT I think you'll watch your nickels and dimes and have him. . . .
FASCHING . . .soliciting architects and soliciting, when the time comes, to
contractors and everything else.
LOJESKI What's the current status, Jim, of our fund that we could take it away
from.
DALE I just happened to look at that, and I would think that what you're talking
about is probably the Capital Outlay Fund, which has got about $2,032,000,
and the Facility Construction Fund, which has another $3,327,000. So those
two funds are really specifically for. . .
LOJESKI A combination of those things.
HARBICHT A little over $5,000,000.
DALE A little over $5,000,000, right.
FASCHING Well, I would like to do this as best we can so that we could ve some
money left over for some other things that we might want to dL _own the
road.
HARBICHT What did the Community Center cost us, Bill, on a per-square-foot basis,
do you recall?
WOOLARD A little over $200. But because of the materials and detail work that was
a lot higher.
HARBICHT That included the interior, detail, the wood. . . .
WOOLARD Yeah.
HARBICHT And that was a little over $200. And the consultants that we had on the
Library a year or two ago, they're. . . .
ROSS They were over $250, I think. . .$270, I think. You di"ide it by the square
footage, divide $16,000,000 by 59,000.
9
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
FASCHING And then tell him we'd appreciate it, as commissioner, if he'd kind of give
us some advice as we go along on this with some of these outside bids and
everything.
CIRAULO Sounds like a way to go.
HARBICHT Well, I'd like to be more specific than that. I think if we agree on the
concept that we should get going on advertising for proposals for
architect.
LOJESKI I think where Bob can help out is working with the staff in formulating
the RFP.
FASCHING Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
LOJESKI I don't want to see any other extra steps involved. . .I think just go right
into it.
FASCHING Well, that's exactly what I was talking about, using him as a consultant
and working with staff on the deal.
MILLER You want him to be a voluntary consultant on our process?
FASCHING Sure. He's willing to do that. Yeah. So then we'll do that? .
HARBICHT I think that's what we're all saying in different ways.
FASCHING Yeah, right. O.K. Do we have agreement, then, on that?
MARGETT Yeah. What do you need, a motion, Mr. Mayor, or what do you want to do?
CIRAULO I will so move, Mr. Mayor.
MARGETT Second the motion, Mr. Mayor.
MILLER O.K. , that is to go out for RFP's with Mr. Daggett as a volunteering
consultant?
(Several or all Councilmembers answered affirmative.)
HARBICHT Can I just ask a couple of questions for clarification here if, in fact,
this is included in the motion or should be. I think that what we're
approving here is a concept for additions. It seems like we ought to also
be including some cost level that we want to have put into that RFP, it
would be a part of the thing.
CIRAULO Well, we won't know until an architect comes back at us, right?
HARBICHT I think- that, I guess. . . .
CIRAULO You want to give him a ceiling up front, and say not to exceed. . . .
HARBICHT I mean, I think we ought to make some estimate of how much are we willing
to spend? I mean, what if he comes back and he does all these drawings
and everything and we find out it's going to cost us $6,000,000 to add this
stuff, and we say why didn't we build a new building.
MARGETT Well, isn't that part of the process that architects would present to us,
what they think they can do the drawing for?
HARBICHT Dennis was saying, and I agree with him, that we have to say, how much is
this worth to us? At least some general statement of how much we're
willing to spend to do these additions. I mean, I guess I'm saying I would
like to have the architects work within a parameter of approximately three
and a half million dollars, the whole thing. . . .
CIRAULO Three and a half to four million.
Give them a ballpark figure.
11
h
LOJESKI Because if you don't, Bob, what happens? An architect. . .if you give an
architect carte blanche, O.K. , an architect who, let's say, has never done
any work in Arcadia with any public buildings. Doesn't know the City,
starts going through the City and says, hey, look at this town, now this
town's got a lot of dough. Look, they just built this Community Center.
They could have saved and used a veneer on the outside of this build-
ing. . .they used a solid block construction.
HARBICHT Well, they'll start looking at some of the houses.
LOJESKI Yeah. Go inside and you see this fancy paneling. So an architect could
say, well, I'll design it and I'll make it look really great and push my
project. And, like Bob says, you're up to a six, seven, eight million
dollar addition.
HARBICHT I guess I would like to see us state that we would, what I'll suggest is,
that we say we're looking at this kind of a concept with satellite
buildings. We're looking to have this thing in the three to three and a
half million dollar range, including tax and license, the whole thing.
MARGETT The furnishings also?
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING Well, I think that one thing here is that from an architectural standpoint
he's not going to bid the interior and all new fixtures.
HARBICHT No, no. All of the stuff that he has--the electrical, the ceilings, doing
the rotunda, a new roof, all of that stuff--we're looking at the whole
package in the range of three to three and a half million.
FASCHING Well, this is why I'd like to have Daggett redefine his figures.
WOOLARD What we can do is, call for RFP's and include some cost parameters and
bring this whole package back to Council.
HARBICHT And I think we need to tell you what we're looking at.
FASCHING Well, let's have Daggett develop the parameters or the figures first. . . .
HARBICHT He already has.
LOJESKI He already has, what more is he going to give us?
FASCHING Well, I'd like to make sure that he agrees on this.
HARBICHT I guess what I'm saying is that if. . .
FASCHING Who's going to bid on the interiors and all the fixtures?
HARBICHT . . .he gets down to sharpening his pencil and says, gee, this really comes
up to $4,000,000, maybe his recommendation would be to not include Building
A or make some modifications.
ROSS One of the things, there's a contingency factor in there, and when you're
working with the interior of the existing building, there are some
unpredictable costs in there, and he actually did go up to $4,000,000 in
my discussions with him. . .anywhere from $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
CIRAULO My guess would be the range would be $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
ROSS That's what he said.
FASCHING Well. . .because of contingencies?
ROSS Yes. See, we wouldn't know for sure until you have a structural engineer
go in there and look since you have to decide what you're going to do with
the building, upgrades and that sort of thing, because it will have to be
seismically upgraded.
12
k,.
City, a business permit, to do these productions. He said he just can't
afford to be putting that out also.
MARGETT How much is that, George?
FASCHING I think it's $200, as I recall.
HARBICHT How much?
FASCHING Two hundred dollars, I think. So he'd like us to waive the City permit
fee since these are sort of a community-oriented type of thing. Although
he does charge $8. And, what, we're giving him two performances. What
is our rent on the other performance?
ROSS It normally is $25 an hour, but a two-hour minimum. So he'd be paying at
least $50.
FASCHING It sounds like a worthwhile program, and it's a cultural thing for the
children in the Library and adults, an activity at the Library. And I told
him I would take this to the Council and see if we would waive the business
license permit.
MARGETT O.K. , for one performance he's going to get approximately $900, is that
right, if he sells it out?
FASCHING Ninety-nine people, yeah.
MARGETT Nine hundred dollars, a little bit less than $900, is that right?
FASCHING Yeah.
MARGETT O.K. What does he have to pay for the. . .does he have to pay something for
the rights to be able to put on the show?
FASCHING I don't know how he reimburses his actors or actresses.
ROSS They're working for nothing.
MARGETT They're working for nothing?
ROSS He may have to pay for some scenery fees, have somebody build some scenery,
that may be a cost.
CIRAULO Didn't they do this over at Holly Avenue School one time years ago?
ROSS I don't recall. I know Sierra Madre has. . .he said he was involved with
that.
FASCHING He started that, the Sierra Madre Little Theater.
HARBICHT Let me ask you a question. Let's say that some piano teacher is going to
have a recital for her 10 students and so she wants to use our room and
ask the students' parents to come and hear the recital and. . .has that
happened, that kind of thing? Is it used for that kind of thing?
ROSS For recitals? Yeah, we use it for piano recitals all the time.
HARBICHT What do we charge?
ROSS In that same range, $25 an hour, $50 minimum. . .2 hours minimum,
HARBICHT What's our justification for not charging this guy? He's charging
admission.
ROSS Well, any time you waive charges it's based on the decision of the Library
Board. I mean, it's stated in the policy that this can be waived at their
discretion.
MILLER Has the Library Board ruled on this?
16
L_.
WOOLARD Well, in this market it's slim.
CIRAULO I guess you don't know. But it's not a bad idea to make them aware of it,
I think, again.
WOOLARD Can this be used outside of the redevelopment area?
KINNAHAN There's two issues. The first one, the program didn't work before because
it was--Donna, correct me--it was not very much of an incentive program.
As the program went along, they began to offer more and more incentives
and give more and more of a rebate, and towards the end of the program it
got very successful. If I recollect, there was a waiting list when the
program finally went out of business. . .there was about two or three that
were in line.
ASSISTANT There were a few. Actually, we offered the same program all along, but
PLANNING DIR. what happened was I think everybody was just very leery of it, they didn't
DONNA BUTLER really understand the project. When we had the earthquake, that was the
greatest incentive that we probably had, the Whittier earthquake. Because
that's when the first, which was the Steerburger, took advantage of the
funding. And from that point, we went down. . .everybody kind of started
asking questions. We had our consultants go individually to each of the
businesses. But that really was the first push. We had a few people
before that that did some minor painting, a couple of signs, but up until
that time it was strictly two or three businesses.
WOOLARD In that downtown area someone at that time did go store to store to inform
the people of the program, gave handouts, and they tried to provide all
the information they could on the thing.
CIRAULO That was within the redevelopment area, though.
WOOLARD It coincidentally was within that area. Outside the redevelopment area
you couldn't use the CDBG funds.
FASCHING What's the possibility of. . .there must be a firm or people that specialize
in modernizing and updated community business districts where they give
you a concept and a plan and street, and buildings, and overall design,
and this type of thing. I'd like to think that we could have somebody that
would come in and look at our City and say this is what you should do here,
and you should do here, and that, and give us an idea of a concept and a
design to follow in all aspects. . . .
HARBICHT We've already done it.
WOOLARD That's what we had in the downtown. . . .
FASCHING Well, where is it? What did they say? Everybody was going to follow a
general plan?
HARBICHT No. As a result of their plan, we established design criteria downtown,
we've got a list of colors, we have a list of materials that you have to
use if you're redesigning anything in the downtown area. We put in new
street furniture, we put in new crosswalks, we put in all new street trees
down there. All of that was a result of those recommendations. And so
we have a design criteria for downtown.
FASCHING Where did we drop the ball?
HARBICHT What do you mean?
FASCHING Well, why does it look like it does?
HARBICHT These are privately owned businesses. You can't force them to. . . .
FASCHING Well, that's what I mean. This is why we're here, is to. . .how do we get
those businesses and what steps can we take to get this job done? And what
will it take?
WOOLARD The next step we had was offering free money to. . . .
19
CIRAULO Well, what I would like to see, is there any way we can expand it beyond
the formal redevelopment area, say on First Avenue, for instance?
KINNAHAN I reviewed that with the Agency attorney, and basically, when you go
outside a project area boundary, you have to show a direct relationship
and benefit to the project area. So if you were to go across the street
from the project area, you can probably say, well, that's probably a
benefit. You start getting a block away. . . .
CIRAULO Are there any (inaudible) that we could use to help those people. . .any
programs available?
KINNAHAN Not through the Redevelopment Agency. As I understand, not the Block Grant
because. . . .
CIRAULO In any other way?
•
KINNAHAN And the only other ones would be through private financing, through a
bank. . .there is. . .that's about it.
HARBICHT There is another one. We could take City funds and make them available.
KINNAHAN Well, I'm not sure. It might get (inaudible) .
LOJESKI When you look in that book there are some outstanding examples of junk and
something that really looks nicer.
HARBICHT There's been tremendous improvements.
LOJESKI Tremendous improvements. . .but they're all downtown.
HARBICHT O.K. , well I was just responding to your suggestion that we hire a
consultant. We've already done it.
FASCHING But he didn't tell us, though, of maybe one concept to follow in the
design. In other words, let's take those little stores on Huntington
between Santa Anita. and First. They all look different. Is there
something we could do to make that whole front of those stores all kind
of tie in to one design and still maintain their individuality, but we have
something that really looks like something for the whole length of the
block instead of somebody here with one thing and somebody with something
else. It gives a whole feeling to the block, is what I'm thinking of, and
then continue it on down to Second Avenue.
MARGETT You mean a continuity of a theme, George?
FASCHING Continuity of a theme.
HARBICHT Sort of a mini-mall look.
FASCHING Jump in here.
MARGETT Well, I'm listening here. You have the microphone.
FASCHING But that's the thing I'm talking about. I think these individuals, where
this guy puts on his style awning and the other guy puts on his style
awning, and we don't have any continuity down that street. I think that
Monrovia accomplished that. . .
HARBICHT They don't have continuity. . . .
FASCHING No, wait a minute. . .through the use of trees and street design they gave
it a concept.
MARGETT Well, I think they did, Bob, down Myrtle Avenue, I think they did give it
a concept, a turn-of-the-century type of look.
FASCHING But they did it with trees and street, Bob. They didn't do it with
storefronts. Well, storefronts are nice, but they don't all look alike.
20
HARBICHT But we did it with trees, too. And crosswalks, the monument signs, the
center divider.
WOOLARD If it wasn't for racetrack traffic you could do a lot more down there, but
we need two lanes in each direction to. . . .
FASCHING Well, there's got to be something we have to do, because it can't stay
looking like that for the next 10 years. 'It looks horrible. Baldwin
Avenue, down there, that big old sign sticking out there in front of
Hinshaw's with all those places on it, I don't think that has much
attractiveness or warmth to that street. I think the best looking street
we've got is Live Oak, with the way it's laid out with the center divider
and the trees and the grass and everything, to a degree. But my feeling
is we've got to :ome up with a feeling for our City that it all ties
together. And we have some trees down on there. . .I was up on Foothill
today, we've got some big trees that need trimming, we've got some little
trees that don't need trimming, and it just doesn't look very representa-
tive of the way our City should look. Maybe we need more tree trimmers.
Donna, you wanted to say something?
BUTLER Well, the only thing I was going to point out was, in talking about. . .Will-
dan was the company that was hired to take a look at the whole entire area.
And as Bob mentioned, one of the things that they were trying to do to tie
the area together. . .because one of the biggest problems down there is you
don't have similarity of design in buildings. They talked about
things. . .they felt that trying to create a theme in the downtown area just
wasn't really a theme you could tie all the buildings into. So what they
tried to do was, at that point in time, they tried to do it by the use of
colors, tying it in with the different types of paving materials, street
furniture, and so forth. Because that was the biggest problem that they
had. And it was presented to the Council, and the Council at the time went
along with the fact that it's very difficult to create a theme that doesn't
exist. I mean, you've got buildings that are so different in design and
style, so that was the use of the colors, the types of materials in the
downtown area, and that's why we adopted the downtown design overlay, which
set forth the specific colors, signing. . .which we're still trying to
encourage the replacement of older signs, but it still hasn't taken place
everywhere. But that was a major discussion. We've got a plan, which is
approximately yea big, that was done at the time they discussed all the
different treatments, what could be done and what couldn't be done and so
forth. We used,Block Grant funds to finance that study, and it's just that
I think it's important. . .you know, we did try to come up with something,
but I think it was felt that this was the best way to tie everything
together was through the use of landscaping. . . .
FASCHING Then I guess maybe what we're looking at here is how do we complete the
program that we came up with.
CIRAULO Well, I'd like to ask, if we can, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to ask Howard, do
you have any feel for how the merchants might feel, Howard, about this
idea, or have you heard anything?
HOWARD LAREW I've mainly heard, in South Arcadia, Joe, that people are not real excited
(PRES. , CH. OF with the storefronts down there. Downtown along Huntington Drive has
COMMERCE) certainly improved over the years, and I have no feel for individual
businesses as to whether they would be willing to put up their own funds
to do it. I think with the economy the way it is, they're all looking for
help. And I think they'd probably be receptive to some kind of a program.
CIRAULO I know I hear occasionally from the people on First Avenue south of
Huntington. But the problem, Pete tells us, that's not even the original
redevelopment area. So that's a whole different kind of an idea. . .a whole
different ballgame.
HARBICHT I think that, with regard to downtown. . .I'm talking about Huntington Drive
when I say downtown. . .a number of businesses took advantages of the Block
Grant program that we have. A number of others have gone ahead and
upgraded their storefronts. We still have some that are left to do. And
I don't think that a theme is feasible. I don't think it's feasible to
say anybody that redoes their storefront has to make it look like a western
21
ROSS Yes. They did say that it would be. . .they would give this approval
contingent upon his obtaining Workers Compensation insurance.
HARBICHT Well, what are we talking about it for, then?
MILLER I was going to say, it's not on the agenda tonight so you can't act on it.
FASCHING Well, we're not. . .I'm just throwing this out to Council.
MILLER Oh, O.K.
WOOLARD From the Council he's looking at us to waive the City fee.
ROSS You're talking about the work permit, which I have no knowledge of.
HARBICHT You mean the business license fee, is that what he's talking about getting
waived?
LOJESKI He's running a business and collects the admission. Why. . . .
HARBICHT Why would we do that?
FASCHING Well, I think the only reason we would think about it is, number one, it
brings a little cultural theater to the Library for the benefit of the
students and adults. I don't know what his expenses are, but I know he
has rehearsals for these plays and things like that. He's going to put
out $1,250 up front to State Fund, he tells me, to acquire the Workman's
Comp. So his attitude was. . .he's very nice about the whole thing, I mean
he's a resident of the City and says that he just doesn't have a whole lot
of money to be putting out on this type of thing. I don't think the guy's
going to get rich on it, myself, but he'll make a few bucks probably. It's
not a big deal. So, I don't know. . .whichever way you gentlemen want to
go. But you have to look at it, is it bringing something of value to the
City even though he is going to get reimbursed on some level for it, but
is it important to the City and the community.
MARGETT I always go back to precedent. In other words, we let this guy do it,
then. . .you know, I can remember here at that last Council meeting somebody
came in and wanted fees waived for putting in a generator for taking
pictures over at the Arboretum, and we said no. I don't know whether or
not you can all of a sudden say, well, yes, we'll allow the show at the
Library, but we're not going to be able to allow somebody to make a few
nickels putting on a production over at the Arboretum. Nobody's cutting
a fat hog, I don't think. But by the same token, I think we better
establish a policy so that if something down the road comes, you're going
to be consistent.
FASCHING We already have a policy. I think we have to decide each one, if we feel
if it's a benefit to the community, and then make the decision. I don't
happen to feel that the generator situation in the Arboretum, making a
commercial film, is of any benefit to the City. But little kids going to
a play at the Library might be a different situation.
HARBICHT Well, we can't make a decision right. . .though I guess I'm not in favor of
waiving the fee.
FASCHING O.K.
MARGETT I wouldn't be either.
FASCHING O.K. I just wanted to get a feeling out of you gentlemen.
2. BUSINESS O.K. We'll go on to the next item on the agenda. . .the business districts.
DISTRICTS - All right. Then the next item is Redevelopment on the business district.
MAYOR FASCHING Prior to that, I'd like to make one little announcement here, which I think
you're all aware of. There is a conference in San Jose on August 6 and
7 concerning downtown revitalization, Main Street prototypes. And I
intend to go to this. This might be of interest to us down the road
concerning our own business district. So I wanted to remind you of that
17
conference. And we have Mr. Larew from our Chamber of Commerce in the
audience. He is available to us for any item we may want to ask
him, on behalf of the Chamber. And I think the main point of this
discussion on business districts is a general feeling--and correct me if
I'm wrong--that we feel that there needs to be something done with our
business districts. The business district on Huntington Drive, the
business district on First Avenue for what's there, but just revitaliza-
tion. Baldwin Avenue falls into this perspective also, as does Live Oak
Avenue down in South Arcadia. And I think that this has been talked back
and forth in years, but nothing really being accomplished in it when we
look at other cities and what they've done with their business districts.
So, with that I'll open it up to general discussion. Mr. Harbicht.
HARBICHT Well, we've got this memo dated 6/10 on things that have been done, can
be done, and the one thing I see missing from here is this ^rogram that
we've had for redoing the facades of businesses in the downy .in area.
WOOLARD We've put together a book of before and afters. Some of these .11 be done
with a funding program that we had through the Block Grant Program. The
others were done individually.
CIRAULO Do we still have that program available? It was, what, a 50-50 thing, is
that how it worked?
WOOLARD _ It's still possible, but it's questionable as to the value of it at this
point.
HARBICHT How many did we do, or were done, under that program?
WOOLARD We did. . .about 16 or so places got some funds. Some were complete facade
removals and others were just for signs and awnings. So some were major
things and others were minor. The problem is that the amount of funding
that you now have to devote to your person of low-moderate income, that
percentage has increased. So the amount of money that would be available
for this program is substantially reduced. The fact that you have to go
through Mavis Bacon for the contractors and stuff makes it difficult to
find somebody, and the administration costs of monitoring all of their
employees and everything else makes it not a very cost-effective program.
But there are other ways the same types of things can be funded. Loans
through redevelopment agencies rather than just loans for other types of
(inaudible) might be available rather than the Block Grants. They're not
as constrained as the Block Grants were. Maybe it will have some. . . .
KINNAHAN In your package that Bob referred to, number seven refers to information
on a possible agency pilot commercial investor rebate loan program. That
deals exactly with picking up where the CDBG program left off. Where the
Redevelopment Agency could, in the downtown, finance a rehab commercial
loan program, or a grant program, (inaudible) program. We've done some
initial research into programs offered through other cities and other
agencies. We've researched the downtown as to the possible need for such.
The need is there. The program exists in other communities. We have funds
available in Arcadia to create such a program if the Agency wants it, in
this case the Agency. We can certainly come back to you with a clear
program concept where we can attack the small problem like signs. We can
probably create an architectural incentive program where there's two or
three architects who can assist a business. We help to pay for it, to
encourage them to take advantage of our design criteria, and then we can
also provide the rebate loan, the rebate to them to do the work. And it's
being modeled very much on the CDBG program.
CIRAULO Well, I like that whole idea.
HARBICHT Yeah, but we've already done it.
KINNAHAN We have, but there's quite a few more to do. We're not done yet.
CIRAULO There's a lot more to do.
HARBICHT The others didn't move when we offered it before. What's the probability
that they would move if we offered it again?
18
L_.
WOOLARD Well, in this market it's slim.
CIRAULO I guess you don't know. But it's not a bad idea to make them aware of it,
I think, again.
WOOLARD Can this be used outside of the redevelopment area?
KINNAHAN There's two issues. The first one, the program didn't work before because
it was--Donna, correct me--it was not very much of an incentive program.
As the program went along, they began to offer more and more incentives
and give more and more of a rebate, and towards the end of the program it
got very successful. If I recollect, there was a waiting list when the
program finally went out of business. . .there was about two or three that
were in line.
ASSISTANT There were a few. Actually, we offered the same program all along, but
PLANNING DIR. what happened was I think everybody was just very leery of it, they didn't
DONNA BUTLER really understand the project. When we had the earthquake, that was the
greatest incentive that we probably had, the Whittier earthquake. Because
that's when the first, which was the Steerburger, took advantage of the
funding. And from that point, we went down. . .everybody kind of started
asking questions. We had our consultants go individually to each of the
businesses. But that really was the first push. We had a few people
before that that did some minor painting, a couple of signs, but up until
that time it was strictly two or three businesses.
WOOLARD In that downtown area someone at that time did go store to store to inform
the people of the program, gave handouts, and they tried to provide all
the information they could on the thing.
CIRAULO That was within the redevelopment area, though.
WOOLARD It coincidentally was within that area. Outside the redevelopment area
you couldn't use the CDBG funds.
FASCHING What's the possibility of. . .there must be a firm or people that specialize
in modernizing and updated community business districts where they give
you a concept and a plan and street, and buildings, and overall design,
and this type of thing. I'd like to think that we could have somebody that
would come in and look at our City and say this is what you should do here,
and you should do here, and that, and give us an idea of a concept and a
design to follow in all aspects. . . .
HARBICHT We've already done it.
WOOLARD That's what we had in the downtown. . . .
FASCHING Well, where is it? What did they say? Everybody was going to follow a
general plan?
HARBICHT No. As a result of their plan, we established design criteria downtown,
we've got a list of colors, we have a list of materials that you have to
use if you're redesigning anything in the downtown area. We put in new
street furniture, we put in new crosswalks, we put in all new street trees
down there. All of that was a result of those recommendations. And so
we have a design criteria for downtown.
FASCHING Where did we drop the ball?
HARBICHT What do you mean?
FASCHING Well, why does it look like it does?
HARBICHT These are privately owned businesses. You can't force them to. . . .
FASCHING Well, that's what I mean. This is why we're here, is to. . .how do we get
those businesses and what steps can we take to get this job done? And what
will it take?
WOOLARD The next step we had was offering free money to. . . .
19
CIRAULO Well, what I would like to see, is there any way we can expand it beyond
the formal redevelopment area, say on First Avenue, for instance?
KINNAHAN I reviewed that with the Agency attorney, and basically, when you go
outside a project area boundary, you have to show a direct relationship
and benefit to the project area. So if you were to go across the street
from the project area, you can probably say, well, that's probably a
benefit. You start getting a block away. . . .
CIRAULO Are there any (inaudible) that we could use to help those people. . .any
programs available?
KINNAHAN Not through the Redevelopment Agency. As I understand, not the Block Grant
because. . . .
CIRAULO In any other way?
•
KINNAHAN And the only other ones would be through private financing, through a
bank. . .there is. . .that's about it.
HARBICHT There is another one. We could take City funds and make them available.
KINNAHAN Well, I'm not sure. It might get (inaudible) .
LOJESKI When you look in that book there are some outstanding examples of junk and
something that really looks nicer.
HARBICHT There's been tremendous improvements.
LOJESKI Tremendous improvements. . .but they're all downtown.
HARBICHT O.K. , well I was just responding to your suggestion that we hire a
consultant. We've already done it.
FASCHING But he didn't tell us, though, of maybe one concept to follow in the
design. In other words, let's take those little stores on Huntington
between Santa Anita. and First. They all look different. Is there
something we could do to make that whole front of those stores all kind
of tie in to one design and still maintain their individuality, but we have
something that really looks like something for the whole length of the
block instead of somebody here with one thing and somebody with something
else. It gives a whole feeling to the block, is what I'm thinking of, and
then continue it on down to Second Avenue.
MARGETT You mean a continuity of a theme, George?
FASCHING Continuity of a theme.
HARBICHT Sort of a mini-mall look.
FASCHING Jump in here.
MARGETT Well, I'm listening here. You have the microphone.
FASCHING But that's the thing I'm talking about. I think these individuals, where
this guy puts on his style awning and the other guy puts on his style
awning, and we don't have any continuity down that street. I think that
Monrovia accomplished that. . .
HARBICHT They don't have continuity. . . .
FASCHING No, wait a minute. . .through the use of trees and street design they gave
it a concept.
MARGETT Well, I think they did, Bob, down Myrtle Avenue, I think they did give it
a concept, a turn-of-the-century type of look.
FASCHING But they did it with trees and street, Bob. They didn't do it with
storefronts. Well, storefronts are nice, but they don't all look alike.
20
HARBICHT But we did it with trees, too. And crosswalks, the monument signs, the
center divider.
WOOLARD If it wasn't for racetrack traffic you could do a lot more down there, but
we need two lanes in each direction to. . . .
FASCHING Well, there's got to be something we have to do, because it can't stay
looking like that for the next 10 years. 'It looks horrible. Baldwin
Avenue, down there, that big old sign sticking out there in front of
Hinshaw's with all those places on it, I don't think that has much
attractiveness or warmth to that street. I think the best looking street
we've got is Live Oak, with the way it's laid out with the center divider
and the trees and the grass and everything, to a degree. But my feeling
is we've got to :ome up with a feeling for our City that it all ties
together. And we have some trees down on there. . .I was up on Foothill
today, we've got some big trees that need trimming, we've got some little
trees that don't need trimming, and it just doesn't look very representa-
tive of the way our City should look. Maybe we need more tree trimmers.
Donna, you wanted to say something?
BUTLER Well, the only thing I was going to point out was, in talking about. . .Will-
dan was the company that was hired to take a look at the whole entire area.
And as Bob mentioned, one of the things that they were trying to do to tie
the area together. . .because one of the biggest problems down there is you
don't have similarity of design in buildings. They talked about
things. . .they felt that trying to create a theme in the downtown area just
wasn't really a theme you could tie all the buildings into. So what they
tried to do was, at that point in time, they tried to do it by the use of
colors, tying it in with the different types of paving materials, street
furniture, and so forth. Because that was the biggest problem that they
had. And it was presented to the Council, and the Council at the time went
along with the fact that it's very difficult to create a theme that doesn't
exist. I mean, you've got buildings that are so different in design and
style, so that was the use of the colors, the types of materials in the
downtown area, and that's why we adopted the downtown design overlay, which
set forth the specific colors, signing. . .which we're still trying to
encourage the replacement of older signs, but it still hasn't taken place
everywhere. But that was a major discussion. We've got a plan, which is
approximately yea big, that was done at the time they discussed all the
different treatments, what could be done and what couldn't be done and so
forth. We used,Block Grant funds to finance that study, and it's just that
I think it's important. . .you know, we did try to come up with something,
but I think it was felt that this was the best way to tie everything
together was through the use of landscaping. . . .
FASCHING Then I guess maybe what we're looking at here is how do we complete the
program that we came up with.
CIRAULO Well, I'd like to ask, if we can, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to ask Howard, do
you have any feel for how the merchants might feel, Howard, about this
idea, or have you heard anything?
HOWARD LAREW I've mainly heard, in South Arcadia, Joe, that people are not real excited
(PRES. , CH. OF with the storefronts down there. Downtown along Huntington Drive has
COMMERCE) certainly improved over the years, and I have no feel for individual
businesses as to whether they would be willing to put up their own funds
to do it. I think with the economy the way it is, they're all looking for
help. And I think they'd probably be receptive to some kind of a program.
CIRAULO I know I hear occasionally from the people on First Avenue south of
Huntington. But the problem, Pete tells us, that's not even the original
redevelopment area. So that's a whole different kind of an idea. . .a whole
different ballgame.
HARBICHT I think that, with regard to downtown. . .I'm talking about Huntington Drive
when I say downtown. . .a number of businesses took advantages of the Block
Grant program that we have. A number of others have gone ahead and
upgraded their storefronts. We still have some that are left to do. And
I don't think that a theme is feasible. I don't think it's feasible to
say anybody that redoes their storefront has to make it look like a western
21
saloon, or whatever we decide is the theme. I just don't think that's
feasible because we're having a hard enough time just getting the majority
of them to redo their fronts. I mean, it's taken us years. But I think
the best that we can realistically shoot for is to try to get some of those
other ones that are in pretty bad shape to redo their storefronts within
the color and materials guidelines that we have in force down there, which
they would have to use if they do redo it. So the real question is, how
can we get them to do it? And it sounds to me that maybe using some
redevelopment funds and putting a priority on that in that we ask that some
significant amount of staff time be invested in contacting people, saying
the City is willing to put up this much money, or whatever, to help you
do this. And I think the possibility of maybe having two or three
architects who are tuned into the program, and we could say if you'll
contact one of these people, or we'll have one of them contact you, is the
only way we're going to accomplish it. Because we've got all kinds of
absentee owners down there who don't see it. . . .
FASCHING Well, I agree with what you're saying. I think. . .probably a concept we'd
like to see, but I think maybe it might be well for us to concentrate on
what we can do. In other words, what we can do with our streets, what we
can do with our landscaping and our trees, to make it much more desirable.
Then we go. . . .
•
HARBICHT Like what?
FASCHING Well, I don't know, but we can certainly. . . .
HARBICHT We put in all new street trees three or four years ago. . .
FASCHING Well, maybe there's some more we can do, I don't know.
HARBICHT . . .we redid the railroad bridge, we got the center divider, and we put in
crosswalks. I don't know what's left.
FASCHING Well, O.K. It's always good. . .we can still take another look at it from
that standpoint. That's what we can do. What we can't do is come up with
a theme or this other thing. But to try to make available to these
business owners what we can to rehabilitate their storefronts, and if they
don't want to do it then what do we have, as a body, that we can do by
resolution to make them. . .force them to get into a. . . .
HARBICHT Force them to do it?
FASCHING Well, I don't know, maybe condemn their property. . .they're in a
redevelopment area.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, you know, I talked to a realtor, a prominent realtor in town,
and we were talking much in the same vein that the Council is talking right
now. She said that invariably the owners or the tenants that are in these
small stores really don't want anything more to be done on the front of
those stores, because invariably then the landlord wants to raise rents
and they cannot afford rents. . .now this is what she said. She said that
there's nothing that would really induce. . .and what you need on Huntington
Drive, if we're still talking Huntington Drive, is something that would
induce foot traffic on Huntington Drive. There's nobody that wants to park
over in back of Jimmy Chin's building or in front of the post office and
walk across the street and walk up and down Huntington Drive to be able
to buy something. There's just not that inducement. I was thinking just ,
the other day. . .and I don't know whether staff has had any consideration
about this. . .but we've got, apparently, a post office that's going to be
torn down and refurbished. I think there's a ton of foot traffic in front
of that post office. I don't know whether we should not consider
putting. . .
[End of Tape 1 - Side 2, beginning of Tape 2 - Side 1]
. . .stuff money into it and let's get block grants, let's get. . .and so on
and so forth. . .and we might be just trying to chase a dead horse. It might
22
11
very well be that that area has purely lost it's economic use for that
area. It just may not be. . . .
Why?
HARGETT . . .where it is. And that's a natural transition that's taken place.
FASCHING Well, what do you do with it then?
CIRAULO With a lack of parking, that could very well be.
FASCHING What do we do with it?
LOJESKI That's your whole key. The whole key to the situation, George. Look at
the north side versus the south side.
MARGETT You say what do you do with it. . .excuse me, Dennis, I cut you off. I
didn't mean to.
LOJESKI No, I interrupted you. But I'm just saying, look at the north side versus
the south side of the street between First Avenue and Santa Anita. I look
at it every day. The north side has plenty of traffic. Why? Why do the
storefronts look better? Why do you have businesses proliferating on that
side? You've got parking for the customers. The minute you take parking ,
away, such as you have done, or there's a lack of 'it. . .we haven't
done. . .but that's the way the area developed. The businesses are in
shambles on the south side of the street.
MARGETT Well, see, staff will tell you that there's sufficient parking in the area
to be able to take care of both,the north and south sides.
LOJESKI Gockley's is gone because Gockley's, first of all, had two parking spaces
behind their store and people couldn't come in there. They couldn't
function.
FASCHING Gockley's, I think, was a result of being gobbled up by people that. . .all
the wholesale stationery stores.
LOJESKI But that's the value of retail business today. You have to make yourself
available to the customer. If the customer is going to come into a mama
and poppa area, there's got to be incentive. And if you can't park right
there. . .you know, a signal, a better situation for that intersection of
Huntington and First was put in. . .what did it do? It took parking spaces
away on the street. There was no additional parking to the poor businesses
on the west side of the street, and that stationery store went under. In
other words, it was just another thing that happened down there.
FASCHING Then I guess we can throw First Avenue into the same category. Maybe it's
beyond it's, commercial use.
LOJESKI I don't know. It's all in the redevelopment area.
FASCHING I come back to the question, what do we do with it? Just let it sit?
HARGETT No.
FASCHING What?
LOJESKI I think you've given incentives to the people in that area, much more than
we've ever been able to give, than we've ever done in West Arcadia, South
Arcadia, Foothill Boulevard. We haven't gotten into any assistance
programs up in those areas.
MARGETT We can't do everything. In other words, if it's true what you said, that
we have provided all those incentives, City government, local government,
has been able to provide those incentives and we've gone the extra mile
and we've had the staff reports and we've had the consultants go ahead and
look at those areas and still things haven't clicked, then I would say that
it could very well be that we've lost our use. for that land. When you find
condominiums coming right back up to the developments that are all on the
23
south side of Huntington Drive, you're not going to go in there and lay
those waste and build more parking area, I don't think. And I would say
that it may very well be, Mr. Mayor, to be able to. . .and I'm sure that a
feasibility study as to what that area should be may be just what you want
to do.
LOJESKI The Willdan study did that. The Willdan study addressed the south side
of Huntington Drive and said if it's going to remain in the long-range plan
of things a business commercial area, there has to be parking created.
And their recommendation was to take the north side of Alta Street and
devote that to parking. So you've got now developable sites, O.K.? You've
got the availability, hypothetically, of AT&T to come in, let's say, and
build a three-story building. . . .
FASCHING Where?
LOJESKI On Huntington Drive, let's say.
FASCHING Between First and Santa Anita?
LOJESKI Could be. Could be. You've got an anchor on one side which is a bank,
George, O.K.? It's the only decent building, I think, in that whole block.
FASCHING Home Savings?
LOJESKI Sure.
MARGETT And they're short of parking.
LOJESKI Not really.
HARGETT Well, their parking is across the street. . .is that what somebody's going
to do to cash their. . . .
LOJESKI No, but that's my point, O.K.? If you cannot go to a mama and poppa store,
then what's the incentive to go there? You're going to go to a mall,
you're going to go to Monrovia, or wherever is convenient.
MARGETT But what I'm saying, the next step, if we're going to generate parking,
where are you going to generate it? Go in there and lay waste some of
those condominiums that are brand new?
LOJESKI From between First and Second, you're stuck. Between Santa Anita and First
Avenue you're not stuck. By that I'm saying just by the age of the
structures.
HARBICHT Yeah, but you're stuck from a cost standpoint.
LOJESKI Sure. No doubt about it. I'm just saying we have a study that was done.
If I'm wrong Bill, that was one of three studies over the last 25 years,
I think, that's been done. They have all addressed the south side of
Huntington Drive in that very direct (inaudible) .
MARGETT In other words, does that study say that that is a viable economic entity
on the south side of Huntington Drive, we can really make some money there
if we provide parking?
LOJESKI If you have parking.
FASCHING Well, I doubt that very much.
MARGETT So do I.
LOJESKI George, it's undevelopable from a retail standpoint. . . .
FASCHING We already have all this development land out there that we want to develop
anyway. What we want to do is clean up the looks of the business district.
We don't have the parking, they're stuck there. And if we don't clean them
up, we don't have the parking, what are we going to do with them?
24
( )
HARBICHT I think we've got two different things here we're talking about. One is
parking, that's a whole separate issue. And if we want to take that
up. . .there's no question that parking would help the viability of that
area. But the cost of providing that parking is so astronomical that I
don't think that. . . .
FASCHING Plus the cost of relocating all those tenants and the (inaudible) . It's
not even in the ballpark.
HARBICHT The second issue is to say, what can we do to clean up that area, to get
the rest of it looking nice. And I guess I come back to what I said
before, is I think that I would be willing to entertain the idea of using,
maybe, some redevelopment money and putting together a program much like
we had before but maybe with a little less red tape. But basically, what
you're going to be doing when you cut it all away is you're saying to the
owner, "If you'll spend $30,000 fixing up the front of this building, we'll
pay for $15,000 of it." That's what it'comes down to.
FASCHING But you know what? It wouldn't cost him $30,000.
HARBICHT I just use that as an example. I don't know what it would cost.
FASCHING They don't want to spend five grand.
HARBICHT But I specifically reject the idea that we say, "Well, if you won't do it
voluntarily, somehow we're going to make you do it." Because I won't vote
to do that. I don't know if it's possible, but if it was, I wouldn't vote
to do it.
CIRAULO They're all doing so poorly, I just don't think they have the money to. . . .
FASCHING Who's they? Not the property owners, the guys renting the buildings are
doing poorly.
CIRAULO Yeah, the businesses that are there.
FASCHING The guys that own the property paid for it a long time ago.
CIRAULO He doesn't care.
FASCHING It's all lint in his pocket.
CIRAULO I'm talking about the poor little business guy who's there.
FASCHING That's right. So then our City slinks along with these businesses looking
like heck on Huntington Drive. The property owner puts all that paid-off
building money in his pocket. And we can end up with people doing pawn
shops with gates on the front and all that type of stuff.
MARGETT We're getting back to the thesis that I put out on the table, Mr. Mayor.
Maybe you have lost that use of that property.
FASCHING O.K. , then I'll pose this question to you--what are we going to do with
it?
MARGETT O.K. , well, we're going full circle here. If that is viable, if we know
for sure that we can make things click down there by providing Block Grant
funds or similar programs, I would be in favor of that. But there's no
sense in going in there and giving a Block Grant-type program and still
have people worried that their rental rates are going to go up. And we
haven't really generated any of the income or the tax that we can get to
substantiate spending the money.
CIRAULO See, I think they're going to get even less traffic and do less business
once Nordstrom's moves in and the mall has got a whole new thing.
FASCHING I think we should go on to the next subject. . .we'll never come to a. . . .
CIRAULO Well, I know, but what do we do with it?
25
FASCHING Yeah, what do we do with it? That's what we're here for, to decide what
to do with it, not to find out all the economical problems of those guys
selling costumes and everything.
MARGETT I think that a lot of it. . .and we're sitting here trying to make that
decision, Mr. Mayor. But, you know, we've got the Chamber of Commerce and
we've got the owners of the building, and we've also got the tenants of
the building. They should be saying, hey, this is what would be beneficial
for this downtown area. And I don't hear them saying anything.
CIRAULO Well, let me ask, Pete, you attend the Downtown Business Association
meetings occasionally. What do they say, what's the feel, what do you
hear?
KINNAHAN I don't recall that really coming up. It's, probably a question -~at can
be posed to them :o get their input.
LOJESKI I'll give you an answer to that, Joe. Bob and I, as two candidates for
the City Council, attended a meeting with the downtown Arcadia business
merchants. Their key question to all the candidates is what are you going
to do to protect. . .I'll give you an example. . .the guy that owns and
operates Rod's Diner says, "What are you going to do to protect my business
so I can stay in business at the expense of what's going to develop—at the
Ford agency? What is your concept, Mr. Councilman? What are you going
to do so my business doesn't suffer?" That's a tough question to answer.
That's where their concern was. The old, established guy, he'll continue
to operate down there.
FASCHING I don't know. That's an old, established restaurant, Rod's. Well, the
thing here is that we can go over all of these problems to the shop owner,
the retailer, the property owner, but we're not getting to the solving of
the problem. If it looks like hell, how do we make it look better
for. . .and you can't convince me that if everything looks better they're
not going to enjoy more business, with one problem in mind is the parking
on the south side of Huntington. But if you continue to allow these to
exist and continue to deteriorate, and the lower class retailer is getting
in there because the place looks like hell in a period of time, that
doesn't help our City.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, would you suggest that we have a session with representatives
of the downtown owners and the tenants and the Chamber of Commerce and see
what they would think that would be beneficial for them down there?
FASCHING No, I wouldn't.
MARGETT Well, how can we sit here and tell them that this is going to be good for
them?
FASCHING, O.K. , all I'm looking at is this. We're probably looking at maybe eight
or nine property owners involved in this. Any businessman in his right
mind would not tell us that improvements of the business district would
not be beneficial to him. So if I wanted him to come in and tell me how
to handle the property owners and get them to do what they should do to
improve their buildings, that's one thing. But they can't tell us that.
They can only tell us what they consider is a good retailing situation.
And we know what a good retailing situation is. Not a deteriorating
retailing situation. And I think I come back to Bob, we have to have
somebody that goes out and calls on these property owners and convinces
them that it's in the best interest of our City, and them, and their future
to participate in an upgrade of their business front, and try and do that.
MARGETT You know, George, I think that's fine. I just don't know that we're
hitting nails on heads and getting to the root of the problem. Putting
a new storefront and then saying everybody is going to come in here and
buy new watches or whatever this guy is trying to sell over there, I don't
know whether they're going to be able to do that.
FASCHING Well, then, let's blow it up. We'll get rid of it.
26
MARGETT So everybody can walk down or drive down Huntington Drive and say, "This
is beautiful"?
FASCHING You're saying just because. . .I'm not talking about. . .you're saying just
because we say new storefronts, new awnings, and it looks nice, and paint
and everything else, that they're going to sell more watches? I can't
guarantee that, Bob. But I can guarantee it's going to sure make our City
look a lot better.
MARGETT No question about it.
FASCHING That's what I'm interested in.
MARGETT O.K. , but how is this guy going to substantiate the spending of $30,000
or $15,000 or whatever?
FASCHING You don't know. . .Bob, to fix up the storefront on one of those small
buildings, I would estimate would be $3,000, $3,500. Buy a canopy and
paint. Maybe some new facade on it with the split brick or something.
You're not talking $30,000. I do my carwash once a year. I make the whole
thing look different, it doesn't cost me more than $8,000 or $9,000.
CIRAULO You're saying split that cost with them? The City split the cost with. . . .
FASCHING Do we have the money available in Community Block Grant funds?
KINNAHAN Redevelopment funds.
FASCHING Sure. We have to have a program that we're going to go out there and sell
these people.
LOJESKI What about this Business Improvement District? What is that all about?
WOOLARD That's like an ABA, who had formed their own group. And they can be taxed
on their business licenses to put money into their association. They then
sponsor events and do other promotional activities and stuff to encourage
activities, hopefully, spending the money within their district.
CIRAULO I have to agree with everybody else. There is very little that they can
do that's going to encourage more business because there's no parking.
So the business they have now, that's pretty much the business they're
going to get. But what we could do is improve the appearance of the
street, I guess that's what we're talking about, right?
WOOLARD I think you've got a real problem down there. . .I don't want to say real
problem. . .you have a problem in that it's not going to be a retail area.
You can fix up the storefronts to look fantastic, and you're still not
going to get anybody selling anything because that's not where people go
to buy. They go to the malls, they go to the mini malls.
FASCHING Well, not necessarily. They're all open, doing business.
LOJESKI Look what's on the north side, George. You've got. . . .
FASCHING There's vacancies on the north side, too. There's vacancies. Gockley's
has been vacant for a year.
LOJESKI It's been sold.
FASCHING Well, just recently.
HARBICHT Are you saying, if it's moving away from retail, the retail office. . . .
LOJESKI You're moving into offices. . .you've got attorneys on the north side, you've
got a hair dressing salon, which is a destination that women. . . .
FASCHING O.K. , whether it be an attorney's office or hair. . .I don't care if it's
retail. I just want it to look good. I don't care what's in there.
HARBICHT How many want it to look good?
27
MARGETT So everybody can walk down or drive down Huntington Drive and say, "This
is beautiful"?
FASCHING You're saying just because. . .I'm not talking about. . .you're saying just
because we say new storefronts, new awnings, and it looks nice, and paint
and everything else, that they're going to sell more watches? I can't
guarantee that, Bob. But I can guarantee it's going to sure make our City
look a lot better.
MARGETT No question about it.
FASCHING That's what I'm interested in.
MARGETT O.K. , but how is this guy going to substantiate the spending of $30,000
or $15,000 or whatever?
FASCHING You don't know. . .Bob, to fix up the storefront on one of those small
buildings, I would estimate would be $3,000, $3,500. Buy a canopy and
paint. Maybe some new facade on it with the split brick or something.
You're not talking $30,000. I do my carwash once a year. I make the whole
thing look different, it doesn't cost me more than $8,000 or $9,000.
CIRAULO You're saying split that cost with them? The City split the cost with. . . .
FASCHING Do we have the money available in Community Block Grant funds?
KINNAHAN Redevelopment funds.
FASCHING Sure. We have to have a program that we're going to go out there and sell
these people.
LOJESKI What about this Business Improvement District? What is that all about?
WOOLARD That's like an ABA, who had formed their own group. And they can be taxed
on their business licenses to put money into their association. They then
sponsor events and do other promotional activities and stuff to encourage
activities, hopefully, spending the money within their district.
CIRAULO I have to agree with everybody else. There is very little that they can
do that's going to encourage more business because there's no parking.
So the business they have now, that's pretty much the business they're
going to get. But what we could do is improve the appearance of the
street, I guess that's what we're talking about, right?
WOOLARD I think you've got a real problem down there. . .I don't want to say real
problem. . .you have a problem in that it's not going to be a retail area.
You can fix up the storefronts to look fantastic, and you're still not
going to get anybody selling anything because that's not where people go
to buy. They go to the malls, they go to the mini malls.
FASCHING Well, not necessarily. They're all open, doing business.
LOJESKI Look what's on the north side, George. You've got. . . .
FASCHING There's vacancies on the north side, too. There's vacancies. Gockley's
has been vacant for a year.
LOJESKI It's been sold.
FASCHING Well, just recently.
HARBICHT Are you saying, if it's moving away from retail, the retail office. . . .
LOJESKI You're moving into offices. . .you've got attorneys on the north side, you've
got a hair dressing salon, which is a destination that women. . . .
FASCHING O.K. , whether it be an attorney's office or hair. . .I don't care if it's
retail. I just want it to look good. I don't care what's in there.
HARBICHT How many want it to look good?
27
MARGETT So everybody can walk down or drive down Huntington Drive and say, "This
is beautiful"?
FASCHING You're saying just because. . .I'm not talking about. . .you're saying just
because we say new storefronts, new awnings, and it looks nice, and paint
and everything else, that they're going to sell more watches? I can't
guarantee that, Bob. But I can guarantee it's going to sure make our City
look a lot better.
MARGETT No question about it.
FASCHING That's what I'm interested in.
MARGETT O.K. , but how is this guy going to substantiate the spending of $30,000
or $15,000 or whatever?
FASCHING You don't know. . .Bob, to fix up the storefront on one of those small
buildings, I would estimate would be $3,000, $3,500. Buy a canopy and
paint. Maybe some new facade on it with the split brick or something.
You're not talking $30,000. I do my carwash once a year. I make the whole
thing look different, it doesn't cost me more than $8,000 or $9,000.
CIRAULO You're saying split that cost with them? The City split the cost with. . . .
FASCHING Do we have the money available in Community Block Grant funds?
KINNAHAN Redevelopment funds.
FASCHING Sure. We have to have a program that we're going to go out there and sell
these people.
LOJESKI What about this Business Improvement District? What is that all about?
WOOLARD That's like an ABA, who had formed their own group. And they can be taxed
on their business licenses to put money into their association. They then
sponsor events and do other promotional activities and stuff to encourage
activities, hopefully, spending the money within their district.
CIRAULO I have to agree with everybody else. There is very little that they can
do that's going to encourage more business because there's no parking.
So the business they have now, that's pretty much the business they're
going to get. But what we could do is improve the appearance of the
street, I guess that's what we're talking about, right?
WOOLARD I think you've got a real problem down there. . .I don't want to say real
problem. . .you have a problem in that it's not going to be a retail area.
You can fix up the storefronts to look fantastic, and you're still not
going to get anybody selling anything because that's not where people go
to buy. They go to the malls, they go to the mini malls.
FASCHING Well, not necessarily. They're all open, doing business.
LOJESKI Look what's on the north side, George. You've got. . . .
FASCHING There's vacancies on the north side, too. There's vacancies. Gockley's
has been vacant for a year.
LOJESKI It's been sold.
FASCHING Well, just recently.
HARBICHT Are you saying, if it's moving away from retail, the retail office. . . .
LOJESKI You're moving into offices. . .you've got attorneys on the north side, you've
got a hair dressing salon, which is a destination that women. . . .
FASCHING O.K. , whether it be an attorney's office or hair. . .I don't care if it's
retail. I just want it to look good. I don't care what's in there.
HARBICHT How many want it to look good?
27
HARGETT Everybody wants it to look good.
FASCHING That's what I'm talking about. So this is where we have to find the
answer, is we have to get out there and sell these people on the advantages
of participating with us to make this street look like something. Not only
this street, we have First Avenue to consider, we've got Live Oak to
consider, and portions of Baldwin Avenue.
HARBICHT I've got to tell you, we're sitting here talking concepts. We need
specific proposals.
FASCHING That's why we're talking, so we can come up with a proposal on what we want
to do.
HARBICHT Well, we have one possibility that Pete outlined. Do you want to do that?
Do you want to take $100,000 in redevelopment funds or $150,000 and say,
"We're going to put together a program that will have Redevelopment Agency
participation, we'll pay 1/3 or 1/2 the cost for any retailer along there
who will redo his facade"?
CIRAULO Well, I think we should make some attempt to do something. That certainly
would be a start.
FASCHING That's not a bad idea. First of all I think we should find out how many
property owners are involved, they're the ones that are going to do the
improvement.
HARBICHT In some cases it will be the tenant.
FASCHING Well, first of all, the tenant can't do anything without the property
owner's approval.
HARGETT And if the tenant bails out on a note or, you know, if they owe the
City. . .I don't know how you'd set that thing up. . .and he still doesn't make
it. . . .
FASCHING I think the ones that we have to convince that they are property owners
and have to have an interest of this City at heart also as (inaudible) in
this City are the property owners.
CIRAULO I have a feeling that a lot of the property owners are absentee. . .they
couldn't care less. If the tenant wants to fix up the building, "Be my
guest, it's your expense. Fix up my building, that's great. Help
yourself." They're not going to do anything.
FASCHING Well, can we get a list of the property owners on Huntington Drive.
KINNAHAN Yes, we could.
WOOLARD I might mention, in the old programs we had, there were really three
different programs. One was for signs, in which we paid 75 percent of new
signs. We also paid 75 percent of any architectural services that they
needed to redo their building, or whatever. And then when we got to actual
redoing the storefronts, we had sort of a sliding scale which was based
on the cost of the improvements and it went from, if you were doing a
small improvement, for example if you had a $2,000 improvement, we paid
$1,576 of that.
HARBICHT We paid 3/4, better than 3/4.
WOOLARD And then if you got up to a $50,000 improvement, we paid half of that,
$25,000.
CIRAULO Why can't we try something like this again?
WOOLARD We can. We just have to go to. . . .
ECON. DEV. I just want to say, I personally called several other cities to see how
ASST. JOYCE their programs worked and what they did, and what worked and what didn't.
FRIEDMANN And one thing that seemed to work was dividing the program up into
segments. They had a segment of the program just for signs. . . . And
28
".
believe it or not, I went down to the downtown to look at the buildings,
and a lot of the signs are signs that could use updating or removal and
put new signs. And they gave a certain dollar amount just for signs. Then
they gave a separate dollar amount for those storefronts, for the awnings
and the facade. And then they had a third amount, and maybe even a grant,
required them to hire an architect, maybe an architect that the agency had
on the list of architects. They had to go through this process, and it
kind of split it out so even though all the money was lumped into one
section, they could still pick and choose what they wanted.
HARBICHT Well, that sounds like a great approach.
FASCHING Perhaps this is where we could make the Chamber and the Business
Association, plural, Associations, of value to us. We could maybe enlist
a group from those two agencies to act as the advisory group and go out,
sit down with us, we'll discuss with them what we want to do, what programs
we have to lay out a plan with them and let them see if they will volunteer
to represent this City in contacts with the property owners, and in some
instances the operators of the building or the businesses, and work out
a program where we're going to put some real emphasis on this thing. And
we can start out with Huntington Drive as our pilot program to work on and
then we can see how that goes and work into Baldwin Avenue later and Live
Oak Avenue.
HARGETT Well, you want Huntington and First, don't you?
FASCHING Yeah, Huntington first I said.
HARGETT Well, Huntington and First Avenue?
FASCHING Yeah, right. I think the only thing I can foresee for First Avenue is
maybe some kind of street improvement or design or something.
LOJESKI That's all part of the redevelopment area.
FASCHING Yeah.
CIRAULO First Avenue isn't, though.
KINNAHAN To Alta Street.
FASCHING We could put a divider in First Avenue. . . .
CIRAULO That's the problem.
WOOLARD Once you get out of the redevelopment area, then you don't really have
anything to do other than public improvements.
LOJESKI See, that's the one small problem. What happens to the businessman who's
down on Live Oak or West Arcadia and says, "You keep doing all these
(inaudible) you make those programs available to Huntington Drive--what
about me?"
FASCHING Let's put it under the whole program, let's do the whole thing.
LOJESKI But you can't use redevelopment money down there.
FASCHING Well, then, we have to do it differently. But we can't neglect that,
that's the City, too.
CIRAULO Is there any way to redraw the redevelopment area and expand it, and make
it encompass a bigger area?
KINNAHAN You can, but the process is extremely cumbersome and lengthy, and what it
does is when you file your amended project area boundaries with the County,
the taxing agencies will look at your project area and say, "Oooh, isn't
this wonderful. I think we'd like to take some of the tax money that's
not just from the amended area but from the entire project area because
we missed it before, we're going to get it now."
FASCHING I do believe the entire city of Santa Ana is a redevelopment area.
29
KINNAHAN They proposed to do it, sir, but they didn't do it.
FASCHING They told us. . .didn't they tell us they were an entire redevelopment area?
CIRAULO Pretty close to it, yeah.
FASCHING Well, why don't we do that then, and. . . .
MARGETT Well, did I hear you right, Mr. Mayor, that we're going to solicit property
owners and the Chamber of Commerce, is that what you're saying?
FASCHING No, no, no, no. We enlist the aid of the Chamber of Commerce and the
Business Associations to work with us if they would like to. . .
MARGETT That's what I'm saying.
FASCHING You said property owners.
MARGETT O.K. , the Business Associations.
FASCHING . . .to work with us on formulation of a plan to get these things done. And
we can't use all our staff time to go out and call on these people. We
need business people to go out and. . .Chamber of Commerce, that's their. . . .
CIRAULO See, the Chamber of Commerce has already identified individuals from each
business district who are a part of their committees and report to them,
so there's a natural intro right here.
LOJESKI Basically, what you're talking about is page 7 of this report, right?
FASCHING That's it.
KINNAHAN If I can, Mr. Mayor, what I would suggest is the staff writes up. . .takes
the concept here, embellishes it a little bit, brings it back to you and
makes sure you're comfortable, and then we would forward it out to the
Chamber and the ABA and say this is a concept plan, that the Agency is
considering the downtown, we'd really like your input, your comments.
And perhaps staff would go to the ABA meeting and explain it to them,
obtain their comments and input, bring it back to you. . . .
FASCHING I think better than staff, along with staff, I think we ought to have a
Councilmember go to the ABA and explain it to them and the Chamber of
Commerce.
CIRAULO And advertise with them in advance, so that a lot of people show up for
the meeting, so you just don't have four or five people there, but as many
representatives as they possibly can.
FASCHING Lay out a general plan of attack and get on with it. Let me ask you one
more question before we get on. First Avenue, let's say primarily First
Avenue south of Huntington Drive to Duarte, that's kind of a real no-man's
hit-and-miss land. Is it worthy of considering and then doing anything,
such as an improvement on our standpoint to First Avenue with a parkway
in the middle of the street to make it more attractive, or what do you
think about that?
HARGETT I don't think parkways in the middle would be attractive.
CIRAULO Well, not only that, but I think you have to be concerned about it cuts
off access from people crossing, getting back and forth across the street
if you have a parkway there. I don't know if it would inhibit traffic. . .it
would look pretty, but you have to redesign the whole thing, and you're
probably talking about an awful lot of money.
WOOLARD Well, I might be able to solve the whole thing. Under the laws of the
State, which we will end up having to adopt here, their landscape water
conservation regulations, they do not want to see any medians less than
10 feet in width, because they feel it's a waste of water because of
overspraying.
30
FASCHING Well, then, the only thing that we can do with First Avenue to make it a
more beautified section of street. . . .
HARBICHT I think rather than putting a parkway down the middle, we'd be better off
if we eliminated one lane on each side and widened the sidewalks way out,
put in a lot of benches. . . .
MARGETT Street lighting.
CIRAULO Make it attractive to walk there.
HARBICHT I'm not suggesting that we do that necessarily, but it's a possibility.
I don't know what the traffic volume on First Avenue. . .of course, it
becomes two lane once you get to Duarte Road anyway.
MARGETT I tell you, you're into heavy duty expenditure there, right, Joe? You're
not going to get any of this. . .$100,000; $200,000 isn't going to cut it.
CIRAULO And you know, as much as I want to help the businesses on First Avenue,
you're talking about an enormous amount of money to help a very few
businesses, a relatively few businesses. And there again, they're going
to come back and tell you, "Gee, that's pretty and it's nice, but my major
problem is parking. I don't have any parking." So what good does. it do
that you made everything nice and. . .people are not going to park over by
the post office and walk all the way down First Avenue to go in the
sporting goods store. They're just not going to do it.
FASCHING I agree with you, I agree with you, I agree with you. I come back to the
same problem. What do we do with the street? Just leave it with the
vacancies and everything else that exists on First Avenue? Just leave it?
Forget it--it's not worthy of anything?
LOJESKI Why not somehow expand some type of a program. . .Bill and staff maybe come
up with some creative thinking about a program similar. Obviously, it's
not on the redevelopment area and you can't use redevelopment funds. Is
there any other. . . .
WOOLARD We can look. I'm not aware of any.
KINNAHAN Staff has already done a preliminary. . .we'll continue looking, but from
the preliminary work we've done there is nothing that suggests itself as
available right now.
MARGETT You know, Mr. Mayor, I think that Office Genie ought to move onto First
Avenue.
CIRAULO Let me tell you something, Office Genie was on Huntington Drive and we
moved out for this very same reason. We were on Huntington Drive for 12
years.
FASCHING I think we have a plan that we're going to formulate here on the business
districts through staff coming back. We'll be working with the Chamber
of Commerce primarily and then to the business associations to work out
a program, hopefully, with them. I come back. . .no, we tossed First Avenue
into here a little bit. But to me, First Avenue is First Avenue. But we
have situations there that. . .we have vacancies and it's not a pretty
street, and I agree with everybody here. . .what do you do with it?
HARBICHT I tell you, if you wanted to undertake an ambitious project of revitalized
downtown, the way to do it would be to take all those stores on the north
side of Huntington Drive and turn them around. Take the post office out
of there, the Sawmill out of there, and try to bring in something like a
Mervyn's or some sort of an anchor store like they've done over at
Huntington Oaks, and basically you've got a parking lot in the center and
stores around the side, just like Huntington Oaks in Monrovia, and you
change the whole orientation away from Huntington Drive to the parking lot,
which could be done very attractively. . .you know, it's got sort of a see-
saw effect, the backs of those stores, but they have to all. . . .
WOOLARD We just have to figure out how to condemn the ,Federal Government.
31
s
5
FASCHING I don't think that's going to be feasible.
MARGETT Hey, you can talk to them.
FASCHING No, we want to develop the redevelopment property we have. We've got the
Foulger Ford property coming up for redevelopment and a whole lot of other
things. Well, anyway, we're going to pass on it for now because we're not
going to get anywhere on First Avenue. I'll meet you all there tomorrow.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I think that maybe you want to express to Larew just how
important we feel that the Chamber of Commerce and the businesses' sections
within our community are. And I think that you probably get a feel here
from Council that we are ready to help and assist there. But we
really. . .you know, it's a two-way street, we're going to have to have some
input and some direction from you people, too.
HOWARD LAREW Well, we have people in place right now, the representatives from the
various business districts. I'm just envisioning putting them into a task-
force-type operation and away we go. Because I know they'd be very
interested to hear of your interest and to work together.
MARGETT But we have to have that marriage.
FASCHING O.K. , our next agenda item is discussion of redevelopment items. What I'm
going to do, gentlemen, I'm going to adjourn to a closed session for a
CLOSED SESSION short period of time and come back to Item No. 3. So we'll adjourn to a
closed session.
MILLER Let me make the appropriate announcement for the minutes. We're going to
adjourn to a closed session per Government Code Section 54956.9B1 to
discuss a situation where, based on existing facts and circumstances, there
is a threat of litigation to the City. For that reason we will be
adjourning to a closed session with Attorney Richard (inaudible) .
[Closed session]
3. REDEVELOPMENT Next item on the agenda, Item No. 3, the discussion of redevelopment items.
MAYOR FASCHING Who wants to kick that off?
KINNAHAN If we can, Mr. Chairman, what I would ask is this also be considered to
be an Agency meeting as well as a Council meeting.
FASCHING So ordered. Go into an Agency. . . .
ALFORD If you want to do that, we can just list the roll at the beginning of the
meeting as Council/Agency and just let it go at that.
KINNAHAN Staff has provided you with a lengthy report on the various elements of
our existing work program and the Agency's projects and priorities that
were adopted some time ago, and other ideas. Most of it is public, a couple
of things in there are confidential. My recommendation to you is that you
may want to just start with number one and work your way through it.
That's one idea. The other is simply to let the Agency members just take
it whichever way you'd like to.
FASCHING Well, what letter are we referring to here?
KINNAHAN It's the June 18th letter, and it's entitled "Proposed Economic Development
FY '92. . . ."
CIRAULO The real thick work program.
KINNAHAN I might point out that it's labeled confidential. Only selected items on
there are probably confidential. Much of it is public.
FASCHING Well, in the interest of time, does everybody want to go all through that
report, or is the main purpose of our meeting on redevelopment items the
thought of how we're going to market these properties, a strategy towards
marketing, or what? What's the main interest? Dennis, you had some
thoughts on that.
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9
LOJESKI Well, I'm just going to kind of jump around a little bit if I can. I was
at the Parking Commission meeting a couple of weeks ago and the question
came up regarding the post office and the site of the post office, what
it looks like and that sort of thing. . .by the Commission, the Commission
brought this up and talked about the parking in the area, the parking
district. And I was a little surprised to hear from staff, Pete indicated
that a concept had been brought to the Council, and I subsequently talked
to a couple of you in regards to if that concept had ever been brought to
the Council, which was one to relocate the .post office temporarily on an
Agency parking lot which we have right now, a bare spot of dirt. And to
your knowledge that was never done, yet a decision was made that that was
not an appropriate situation for the City to get into. I also question,
with the situation in regards to the post office, Bob mentioned it a little
bit, about possibly seeing the post office become relocated, if that was
a possibility. And you can take the Chandler property, for example, and
what are the possibilities of taking the.Kiewit. . .it would be Kiewit West,
that's a very difficult site to develop because of its shallow depth.
Could the post office be encouraged to actually, if they're going to
rebuild on their current site, what about rebuilding the post office on
the Agency parcel? I don't think Chandler is going to develop it. I don't
think they've got_ the financial ability to do this. Would it be in our
financial best interest to maintain the property and do exactly what the
post office was doing on the Wheeler site, which is a long-term lease?
I don't know.
HARBICHT Well, it's my understanding that all they're doing is some facade work on
the post office. . .they're not tearing it down.
KINNAHAN Substantial rehab. We've never seen the building plan. A substantial
rehab, I don't know what that means, whether they're really going to gut
the building. . .I know they're worried about asbestos inside. But they're
going to end up with what they tell us is going to be a very attractive
building.
HARBICHT Yeah, but my understanding is that the building itself isn't going to be
altered, they're just going to do some stuff on the facade and perhaps
rehab the inside. The second question I have is does the Federal
Government own that or is it privately owned and leased to the Federal
Government?
KINNAHAN The Federal Government bought it about two years ago.
HARBICHT If they were to move to Agency property, would they stop paying property
tax?
KINNAHAN Yes. I'm sure.
HARBICHT So we have a negative tax increment.
LOJESKI What happens if we kept ownership of the property and they simply paid us
the equivalent of a land lease or something like that to build this
structure on Agency. . . .
HARBICHT We still wouldn't have any tax paid on it. The Agency lives and dies on
tax increment, and we would be taking a whole piece of property off the
tax rolls.
FASCHING Is this still a possibility?
LOJESKI I don't know. I was just simply looking conceptually at what was there.
Somebody said, well, where would you park the trucks? Well, could you put
a structure or something like that over the water towers? Park the
vehicles and that sort of thing. Again, it's a conceptual thought because
it takes congestion, obviously, out of the downtown area, which is tough.
It takes the potentiation of a problem. . .people walking across Wheeler
Street. . .puts it at an intersection, puts it at a wider street.
FASCHING I think the horse is out of the barn?
LOJESKI Pardon?
33
FASCHING I think the horse has already gotten out of the barn. I think the trucks
are gone and they're gone, they're located and relocated, and if we would
have wanted to do this we should have got hot on this a few months ago.
Correct?
LOJESKI I don't know.
CIRAULO Well, it's only a temporary relocation, isn't it? Until they rehab the. . . .
FASCHING I think they probably leased for a year wherever they went.
LOJESKI You see, we've got some vacated,property there that no matter, if a project
came in today, it's going to be a minimum of two years for anything to be
built on those sites. And I say that fairly realistically, because. . .with
Keith Brown's project. . .great looking project. The way Jim Kuhn designed
and fit that little new building into . that tough, tough site. Did a
marvelous job. But that's been a two-year project on that little itty
bitty tiny site. And, again, with, I think, the Chandler thing is back
on the line. I'm not so sure Rick Smith and Emkay are ever going to do
anything with Kiewit East. We've got Second and Huntington, South Side,
obviously back on the market. You've got the 4 1/2, 5-acre site on the
other side of the street that's there. We've got Agency-owned property
which is part of the old Acapulco site.
FASCHING Well, Mr. John Nobrega, who's a councilman in Monrovia who does business
on the south side of Huntington Drive in the golf shop, as you probably
know, and runs a very nice operation, he was talking to me the other day.
And I happen to know that, among the other things in the City of Monrovia
who enjoys that Home Depot with beaucoup bucks in sales tax revenue, that
they also now are talking and have a plot plan on the wall in their
conference room of Costco, with about 180,000-square-foot development,
Costco being sort of another. . . .
MARGETT Drug store.
FASCHING Well, no. But they've got a deal going with a drug store. They've got
a deal going with Wal-mart on a drug store, on another location in Monrovia
for a Wal-mart. Then they've got this deal for Costco going. And I
think. . . the mayor saw me, Bartlett saw me when I saw that, and I asked
him about it. He seemed a little embarrassed that I had seen this thing
on Costco. Two strong retailers. Only indicating to you that here we have
all this activity going on in a city on our easterly boundaries with all
this sales tax revenue and development taking place, and we're sitting here
on all this vacant property that we don't have anything going on except
a building that almost went up and fell through after we screwed around
with it for two years and made concessions every time we sat down at this
table.
HARBICHT Have you ever looked at the concessions they made to get Home Depot.
FASCHING No, no. I mean concessions to keep that medical building alive.
HARBICHT Well, I'm talking about the concessions that Monrovia made to get Home
Depot. They almost gave that away. They've got a long, long payout before
that thing is going to make a turn in the black for them.
FASCHING Well, no more different than the mall's going to give the whole building
for Nordstrom's, above Nordstrom's, just to get them to move in. Same
process. But all I'm saying is there's action going on there. And we
don't have any action.
LOJESKI Maybe the bottom line question is how does. . .and I don't want to compare
us to Monrovia. Pete, you're over here; Bill, you're over there. I don't
want to compare us to Monrovia. How'does Monrovia seem to get those kinds
of things? How do they seem to. . . . Now the former Ole's store, which
is now Builder's Emporium, is closing down, and immediately out of the
field, supposedly, is now coming in a big Toys 'R Us store. That's got
to be a big sales tax generator. Do we ever have those kind of inquiries?
How do they do it?
34
KINNAHAN We had one once from Target.
HARBICHT Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. What happened to that?
WOOLARD You have to have the right size property in the right location. And we
don't have that kind of acreage on Huntington Drive, that's the bottom
line.
KINNAHAN Both Wal-mart and Costco require, probably minimally, six to ten acres.
We don't have anything near that size. Toys 'R Us simply filled in for
an existing tenant. We don't have any existing tenant now except for
Hinshaw's who has that size store. By the way, on the Hinshaw's, I
mentioned to the Mayor today, we have had some indication that two major
tenants are talking to the owners of the land for a possible succession
to Hinshaw's. They will not tell us who they are, but they're interested
in the Hinshaw's property, and we should know more in a week or so.
FASCHING I don't think Hinshaw's will be too hard to market, myself.
KINNAHAN But going back to your question again, Bill's point is it. We get calls
from people all the time wanting ten acres of land. We get calls from the
Costcos and the Price Savers and the Pace. . .all these stores want ten acres
and I say, "I don't have ten acres." I don't have it in Chicago Park
anymore. We used to refer them to Chicago Park. Our largest site in town
is the four-acre site, the Northwest Corner. And they'll say, "I have to
have at least. . .I can make it eight." I say, "I don't even have eight,
I only have four. Can you branch it across the street and park across the
street. . . ."
MARGETT You're talking about the Northwest Corner site of Second and Huntington.
Yeah, but that's a bastard piece of property. I mean, how are you going
to develop that?
KINNAHAN And I'm just trying to get the hook in, you know. And most of them know
it. They say, "It's by the railroad track, and it's odd shaped," and so
on. I say, "Well, there's the Foulger site. That's a little bigger,
that's 4.04 acres. Call Coldwell Banker." Well, they need ten acres, they
need eight acres. Costco and Wal-mart, that's what they're looking for.
We just don't have that size properties. Monrovia also looks like they're
doing well, and I admit they are, but if you look at Monrovia they have
an awful lot of car dealerships that are vacant now. If you drive down
Huntington, you see an awful lot of vacant properties on Huntington. They
have much the same problem we do. What are they going to do with that?
And they're looking at office, they're looking at retail.
LOJESKI Of course, they had a lot of vacated car dealerships that were on
Huntington that became the Home Depot, too.
KINNAHAN That's the Home Depot that Bob mentioned and they gave them some
significant concessions just to get them there. But there's a lot more
car dealerships that are still there that have been there for a year and
a half to two years just waiting. And they don't know what they're going
to do with them. They don't have the user for them, they're just buildings
that have been there and they're going to be there for some time.
HARBICHT I think the other thing that you have to keep in mind is that Arcadia
property is very expensive property. But from a retail standpoint, from
the standpoint of a Home Depot or Toys 'R Us, being across the line in
Monrovia doesn't really hurt them, yet they get the property so much
cheaper. When Duarte was attracting all the car dealers and took Arcadia
Datsun from us, they sold them the land for $5 a foot. At the same time
we were acquiring land for close to $25 a foot. Well, that's a heck of
a writedown. Duarte didn't have that much of a writedown because they were
buying the land for significantly less than we were. It was a tremendous
writedown that they did to get them in there, and I don't know if it's ever
going to pay off for them because of the problems they've had with it.
But that's another part of problem, is that you buy a square foot in
Arcadia compared to a square foot in Monrovia, compared to a square foot
in Duarte, you're talking about a significant difference of price. I'm
not sure why. I know why the housing is more expensive, but I'm not sure
35
•
why the retail is what it is. And it's just an economic fact of life that
we have to deal with.
LOJESKI Of course, then, you had a city and a county that was extremely sensitive
to sales tax base. Because they had none, O.K.? We were never in that
position. We had our shopping mall, we had Santa Anita Fashion Park, and
so we sat back and said no, we're not going to get involved with the
typical procedures of a typical agency as the Monrovia or Duarte was going
to get into, which was buying high, selling low, and waiting.
•
HARBICHT When I was on the council in Duarte we used to cry in our beer about the
fact that everybody in Duarte is coming to Arcadia to shop and we weren't
getting any of that sales tax revenue, and we kept trying to figure out
ways to get the law changed or something. So, sort of out of desperation
they took tremendous writedowns on their property to get those car dealers
in. There's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but it's a long, long
rainbow, I'll tell you.
LOJESKI Of course, Monrovia cried when Stan Gribble first went in and put his
project in there, and they were extrapolating that out to be a 10, 12, I
don't know, plus-year payout, and what was it, paid off in 3 years or
something, and they started clipping coupons or something like that.
KINNAHAN They refinanced his note in a short time. I don't know that it's paid off,
but they did get. . .it was quite a successful project.
FASCHING What's the price per square foot on Foulger's property?
KINNAHAN They're asking thirty-four.
FASCHING Thirty-four dollars. I think what we're probably looking at here and
everything in comparing Monrovia and ours and our size and their size,
what's available, is what can we do for a better aggressively marketing
program to market our redevelopment properties.
HARBICHT Well, one of the things that we did, maybe it was since you were on the
Council, was we gave courtesy to brokers and were willing to pay a
brokerage fee, figuring that that would get some aggressive marketing.
And I still think that that's a good way to go. The problem is just there
isn't much happening now. You know, property development as we saw on the
one we were working on on the south side. The lenders aren't lending on
those kinds of buildings, everybody's kind of holding their
[End of Tape 2 - Side 1, beginning of Tape 2 - Side 2]
HARBICHT It's kind of frustrating to be sitting there with that land, although we
generally see appreciation in land value as time goes by so we may get it
back just through appreciation once things start picking up again.
FASCHING Mr. Margett, do you have any. . . .
MARGETT Well, you know, you're talking in terms of that $28, $25 as being
exorbitant or a lot of money. Really it's not. I mean, if you get the
guy in there that can make money at fifty, he thinks he's got a steal.
HARBICHT No, no, I'm just saying it's a lot compared to what Monrovia or Duarte. . . .
MARGETT Was paying, yeah, right. But I don't think we should get locked in to the
idea or the concept that we've got expensive land. I don't think that we
do. I mean, you take a lot, a residential lot in Arcadia is going to be
$20 to $25 a square foot. So I don't know that a commercial square footage
at $25 or $35 is really that big a deal. And these guys, when they put
it together, all they want to do is be able to make money at it someplace
along the line. But my thought was. . .and I don't know whether we use the
Wall Street Journal or not, but I think that people who are interested,
in Chicago or someplace else, in coming to California for a new office,
and if you could set the criteria that you have available. . .40,000 square
feet that would take care of a 20,000-square-foot building and whatever. . .
that you've got a Council that's willing to work with you, that would be
another way to do it. I have a friend of mine who just came back from
36
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.y
Springfield, Illinois, that, I tell you. . .he went in there and was checking
with the Chamber of Commerce and the Redevelopment Agency that they have
there. And I tell you, they would do anything to get this fellow to move
from Irwindale back there to be able to manufacture furniture com-
ponents. . .labor market, less labor market, less OSHA, less everything, to
be able to do that. And I think that you're going to be competing, we're
going to be competing with that type of marketing.
FASCHING Plus, his family could buy a 3,000-square-foot house for $135,000.
MARGETT Right, the housing. . .right, George, that's another aspect of it.
LOJESKI Is our current attitude, I would hope, is an extremely positive one, to
actually sell the attributes of Arcadia. . .not sell the City down the road
or the river, or give things away, give the ranch away. . .but I mean to sell
the attributes to the development world and the possibilities of those
particular sites. They may be bastardized sites as far as looking like
arrowheads and things like that, but talk about the quality of the
community, freeway accessibility, even from a signage standpoint, O.K.?
And from that standpoint maybe we should be in mode to somewhat relax our
standards and that sort of thing. So if it was a viable business that was
backing up to the freeway that they could have some exposure so people
would know where they were.
HARBICHT Well, we have a fantastic brochure that does just that.
LOJESKI Has it ever been published or put out to anybody?
KINNAHAN Mm-hm. It was mailed out. . .we've used this extensively. As a matter of
fact, we're coming to the end of the number. . . .
MARGETT But, you know, the other thing that concerns me, gentlemen, about Arcadia
is the demographics that we have to offer a person coming in. You know,
we don't have a lot of people per square mile in Arcadia. We're fortunate
enough to have a lot of open space. We don't have that number, that sheer
number that people like from the standpoint of retail. And I thank the
Good Lord that Nordstrom's went by that and are coming in. And I think
that one of the problems that we have on Huntington Drive, Mr. Mayor, that
we talked about earlier is the sheer demographics. We don't have
demographics that make things economically viable to some of our areas.
HARBICHT Not for retail, but most of our interest has been in the area of office,
and we've put in the hotels, which have been a godsend, and that's probably
the way that's going to go. And I think the fact that they've got this
freeze on in Pasadena is going to help us. When things pick up and people
get back into the development game, they can't go into Pasadena, where's
the next logical place? They're going to look at Arcadia, because we're
close to Pasadena, which is one of the reasons that our hotels are
successful. I mean, I think we're positioned, when things turn around,
to market this property successfully.
FASCHING Well, now we come right back to marketing strategy. That's what I think
we're mainly concerned with, is how to market our property in the most
strategic ways and aggressive ways, and what markets can we go to to make
known the availability of this property to corporate headquarters that may
want to relocate from West L.A. or downtown Los Angeles. . . .
LOJESKI Or from elsewhere in the United States, maybe they want to come to Southern
California. I think we've got some prime locations.
FASCHING Well, we do. We have some nice properties. And if we get one going, they
all could possibly.
LOJESKI There's still a little, I think, of the stigma, too, in the development
world. And I heard this directly from an individual by the name of Blaine
Fadder. Blaine has had an interest in developing Huntington Drive at the
intersection of Huntington and Myrtle and has done a phenomenal job over
there, with corporate headquarters and things like that. And the stigma
being, "I won't bring a project to Arcadia because it's just too tough to
work with the people over there." Now, whatever that means. I certainly
hope that's not the situation and that we are more of in the "Hey, let's
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CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
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to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
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Y�
ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
3
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
5
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E D I T E D
TRANS C R I P T
(Insofar as decipherable)
RELATING TO
ARCADIA CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION
JUNE 24, 1992
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CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
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to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
2
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Y�
ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
3
r
perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
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FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
to it, however, another one which is potentially unknown as far as its
impact. They just simply say that they might want to require that
agencies would receive in tax increment only what they've legally
contracted for. In our case, we have bonded indebtedness, that's $330,000
a year. Well, the rest of it is often pay as you go. We pay as we go.
They would sort of take that away. They would simply give us in tax
increment $330,000 because that's contractually established.
•
50
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FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
4
LOJESKI Hasn't Kent looked at this. . . .
FASCHING You're bringing up a lot of other questions. You say you want to be
guaranteed the extra square feet will be good for another 25 years, and
all those things.
LOJESKI I didn't use the word guarantee. I want to be assured that what we're
talking is going to be usable for the next period of time.
ROSS It's 10 years that I said would be the absolute guarantee that would. . .the
capacity would be guaranteed for that time. Beyond that it's difficult
to tell, the changes that could occur. Certainly, when we do this it would
be a 25-year building. But it could be at capacity in 10 years.
CIRAULO And what might extend that, too, is. . .I understand it's just preliminary
at this point, but I understand the School District is having some
preliminary discussions about some way to access the Library by way of
computer and keep most of the students at the school.
ROSS They already do. They do access the Library by computer, but actually what
that does is tell them what we have so they know that we have it before
they come over. And that's primarily the way it's used now. They
originally wanted a retrieval system, and then they couldn't afford the
people to come and retrieve the items at the time because of their budget.
But they still have access to our collection by computer.
CIRAULO They have that now?
ROSS They have that now.
HARBICHT Well, some comments that I have on this is, one, the question of where the
money is going to come from. I think this is why we have to prioritize
our capital improvements. We have the Capital Improvements Budget, we have
money in it, we have receipts going into it from the Track and the other
monies that we're putting into that. So if we decide that we're going to
build this Library, or build this addition to the Library, the money is
available in the Capital Improvements Fund. That's what the Capital
Improvements Fund is for. And if that takes up most of the money there,
then any other capital improvements that we want, such as an auditorium,
whatever, are just going to have to be put off two or three years until
we build it up to the point where we can do it. That's the way we've
always done it in this City. And I guess I'll express the opinion that,
in my mind, this is the number one priority. And so I would be in favor
of using the Capital Improvements Funds for doing the Library. I guess
the question of how long the Library is going. . .how long this would
last. . .Kent, I'm going to argue with you a little bit on this. I don't
know why it would only last for 10 years. I don't think we foresee any
significant population growth here in Arcadia. As a matter of fact, the
consultants' report that we had visualized almost no growth.
ROSS Well, I didn't say it wouldn't last more than 10 years; I said I couldn't
guarantee it. I could absolutely guarantee that it would certainly have
sufficient space for growth up to 10 years. After that, there are a lot
of things we don't know, as I explained, I think, the last time. . .particul-
ar, say, reference volumes that were only two volumes at one time are now
10, 15, and they've grown by 10 times. But we're still required to have
those. So the same thing, to serve the community in this much space 10
years ago now takes several shelves.
HARBICHT I understand that. I guess I'm thinking in terms of, you know, one of the
things that would have the greatest influence on the size of the Library
needed is the number of people using it. I think the number of people
using it is pretty closely tied to population growth. And so I don't
visualize a huge increase in the number of people using it. In regard to
the reference volumes, that's true and I know that the amount of
information in the world is constantly expanding and we seem to be putting
more of it on our shelves. But it could be, and I think it's very likely,
that 10 or 15 years from now an awful lot of that is going to be on laser
disk and you're not even going to have those volumes. . .you're just going
to pop a laser disk in and read what you want, and print out the part you
7
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want. Which means that actually there would be a shrinking demand for
space there. But I guess in my mind. . .Dennis asked the question, how long
would this be good for. I'm fairly convinced that this kind of an
expansion is going to be good for more than 10 years, and I don't think
20 years. . .my guess, and I'm not a library expert, but my guess just based
on what I see in trends is I think we're pretty safe in saying that if we
were to do this it's going to serve the needs of Arcadia for 20 years.
CIRAULO Well, that's a good question to ask. How much extra space do we need to
last us for 25 years?
HARBICHT Because if it was only going to be 10 years, I'd be pretty reluctant to
do this. If I thought 10 years from now we were going to have to tear
everything down and build a new Library, I might say maybe we ought to just
struggle along with what we've got for three more and save up the money
and then build a brand new Library. So, that's my feeling.
FASCHING I feel that it's going to last us for 20, 25 years. The one we have was '
conceivably out of space 20 years ago, and we've been using that for 20
years since then.
•
[End of Tape 1 - Side 1, beginning of Tape 1 - side 2]
HARBICHT . . .in terms of making a decision as to whether or not we should do this
is how much it's going to cost. Now, we have a cost estimate here that
I think Bob Daggett gave us, but we also have the cost estimate for the
new building, which the consultants gave us a year or so ago, two years
ago maybe, and some of their unit costs are particularly high. And so I
don't know if they're high estimators or Bob's a low estimator, or if the
truth lies somewhere in the middle, but we're talking significant
difference in estimated costs.
ROSS I spoke to Bob Daggett on that issue and we discussed it at length. And
using the same criteria that he used for this plan, it was his feeling that
that same building, even nearly 60,000 square feet, would be under
$8,000,000. He gave a number of reasons why he felt that buildings were
overbuilt or built way above cost. And I think he may have mentioned some
of them in the last study session. But that was his feeling, and that's
the way he's based this cost. So if you were comparing this to a new
building, you'd have to use the same criteria, and based on that criteria,
his criteria would be about $7,500,000 for the facility recommended
originally by. . . .
HARBICHT Well, the shell or the whole ball of wax?
ROSS The whole thing, he said. That's what I kept asking him, I said does this
include fees and everything? He said yes.
HARBICHT And interior?
CIRAULO As opposed to this recommended idea, which is about $2.3 million, right?
ROSS Well, this whole thing, though, this whole thing is $3.5 million.
CIRAULO Three point five.
WOOLARD I think what Kent was comparing was that the plan for a new Library was
like, $16,000,000. The same numbers applied from Daggett's figures, the
new Library would only cost $7,500,000 to $8,000,000. So there's quite
a large difference. But a lot of it may have to do with materials and
other details that Bob has a different image of than the other people who
may have been, let's say, going with a Cadillac. I really don't think
you're going to have a handle on it until you actually have an architect
getting down to the more. . . .
CIRAULO Well, it seems to me that t?-at's what we need to do next, is to have an
architect look at. . .we all seem to like this concept. . .have an architect
put pencil to paper and come back to us.
8
FASCHING Well, we have to advertise for an architect.
CIRAULO Well, go out to bid, I guess.
WOOLARD Daggett can still help us a lot if he wants to volunteer.
FASCHING Well, I think he'd be perfectly willing to volunteer to help out on this
thing even though he can't bid on it. But I think he's involved himself
on a volunteer basis with us, which I think is great, and I would certainly
like to keep him involved, to what extent the staff might want to, to
advise us. I personally feel that we probably get ripped off every time
we build something in this City.
MARGETT Well, that's true, Mr. Mayor, and I think that's where Bob Daggett's coming
from. I'm sure that there are architects out there that will build you
a library for $20,000,000. There's no problem doing it. Or ten or eight.
And I think that that's the key in the whole thing. I think what Bob
Daggett wants to be able to do is say, hey, we have $3,000,000, or whatever
we're coming up with, five, or what your budget is, make that thing work
at $5,000,000 and make it look like we're going to spend $20,000,000. And
I think that's what we should be doing.
FASCHING Well, I think we should be taking advantage of this type of expertise and
help that can be furnished to us by one of our commissioners, that's what
they're there for. They're residents that are interested in the City and
the future of it, too. That's why I propose that we settle on this
concept, we're happy with it. We have a budget, we know where the money
is coming from. We tell Daggett and the Librarian this is what we want
to do, and let Daggett put the finishing touches on it so we know, and let
him kind of help us as we want him to in the process of. . . .
MARGETT I think you'll watch your nickels and dimes and have him. . . .
FASCHING . . .soliciting architects and soliciting, when the time comes, to
contractors and everything else.
LOJESKI What's the current status, Jim, of our fund that we could take it away
from.
DALE I just happened to look at that, and I would think that what you're talking
about is probably the Capital Outlay Fund, which has got about $2,032,000,
and the Facility Construction Fund, which has another $3,327,000. So those
two funds are really specifically for. . .
LOJESKI A combination of those things.
HARBICHT A little over $5,000,000.
DALE A little over $5,000,000, right.
FASCHING Well, I would like to do this as best we can so that we could ve some
money left over for some other things that we might want to dL _own the
road.
HARBICHT What did the Community Center cost us, Bill, on a per-square-foot basis,
do you recall?
WOOLARD A little over $200. But because of the materials and detail work that was
a lot higher.
HARBICHT That included the interior, detail, the wood. . . .
WOOLARD Yeah.
HARBICHT And that was a little over $200. And the consultants that we had on the
Library a year or two ago, they're. . . .
ROSS They were over $250, I think. . .$270, I think. You di"ide it by the square
footage, divide $16,000,000 by 59,000.
9
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
FASCHING And then tell him we'd appreciate it, as commissioner, if he'd kind of give
us some advice as we go along on this with some of these outside bids and
everything.
CIRAULO Sounds like a way to go.
HARBICHT Well, I'd like to be more specific than that. I think if we agree on the
concept that we should get going on advertising for proposals for
architect.
LOJESKI I think where Bob can help out is working with the staff in formulating
the RFP.
FASCHING Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
LOJESKI I don't want to see any other extra steps involved. . .I think just go right
into it.
FASCHING Well, that's exactly what I was talking about, using him as a consultant
and working with staff on the deal.
MILLER You want him to be a voluntary consultant on our process?
FASCHING Sure. He's willing to do that. Yeah. So then we'll do that? .
HARBICHT I think that's what we're all saying in different ways.
FASCHING Yeah, right. O.K. Do we have agreement, then, on that?
MARGETT Yeah. What do you need, a motion, Mr. Mayor, or what do you want to do?
CIRAULO I will so move, Mr. Mayor.
MARGETT Second the motion, Mr. Mayor.
MILLER O.K. , that is to go out for RFP's with Mr. Daggett as a volunteering
consultant?
(Several or all Councilmembers answered affirmative.)
HARBICHT Can I just ask a couple of questions for clarification here if, in fact,
this is included in the motion or should be. I think that what we're
approving here is a concept for additions. It seems like we ought to also
be including some cost level that we want to have put into that RFP, it
would be a part of the thing.
CIRAULO Well, we won't know until an architect comes back at us, right?
HARBICHT I think- that, I guess. . . .
CIRAULO You want to give him a ceiling up front, and say not to exceed. . . .
HARBICHT I mean, I think we ought to make some estimate of how much are we willing
to spend? I mean, what if he comes back and he does all these drawings
and everything and we find out it's going to cost us $6,000,000 to add this
stuff, and we say why didn't we build a new building.
MARGETT Well, isn't that part of the process that architects would present to us,
what they think they can do the drawing for?
HARBICHT Dennis was saying, and I agree with him, that we have to say, how much is
this worth to us? At least some general statement of how much we're
willing to spend to do these additions. I mean, I guess I'm saying I would
like to have the architects work within a parameter of approximately three
and a half million dollars, the whole thing. . . .
CIRAULO Three and a half to four million.
Give them a ballpark figure.
11
h
LOJESKI Because if you don't, Bob, what happens? An architect. . .if you give an
architect carte blanche, O.K. , an architect who, let's say, has never done
any work in Arcadia with any public buildings. Doesn't know the City,
starts going through the City and says, hey, look at this town, now this
town's got a lot of dough. Look, they just built this Community Center.
They could have saved and used a veneer on the outside of this build-
ing. . .they used a solid block construction.
HARBICHT Well, they'll start looking at some of the houses.
LOJESKI Yeah. Go inside and you see this fancy paneling. So an architect could
say, well, I'll design it and I'll make it look really great and push my
project. And, like Bob says, you're up to a six, seven, eight million
dollar addition.
HARBICHT I guess I would like to see us state that we would, what I'll suggest is,
that we say we're looking at this kind of a concept with satellite
buildings. We're looking to have this thing in the three to three and a
half million dollar range, including tax and license, the whole thing.
MARGETT The furnishings also?
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING Well, I think that one thing here is that from an architectural standpoint
he's not going to bid the interior and all new fixtures.
HARBICHT No, no. All of the stuff that he has--the electrical, the ceilings, doing
the rotunda, a new roof, all of that stuff--we're looking at the whole
package in the range of three to three and a half million.
FASCHING Well, this is why I'd like to have Daggett redefine his figures.
WOOLARD What we can do is, call for RFP's and include some cost parameters and
bring this whole package back to Council.
HARBICHT And I think we need to tell you what we're looking at.
FASCHING Well, let's have Daggett develop the parameters or the figures first. . . .
HARBICHT He already has.
LOJESKI He already has, what more is he going to give us?
FASCHING Well, I'd like to make sure that he agrees on this.
HARBICHT I guess what I'm saying is that if. . .
FASCHING Who's going to bid on the interiors and all the fixtures?
HARBICHT . . .he gets down to sharpening his pencil and says, gee, this really comes
up to $4,000,000, maybe his recommendation would be to not include Building
A or make some modifications.
ROSS One of the things, there's a contingency factor in there, and when you're
working with the interior of the existing building, there are some
unpredictable costs in there, and he actually did go up to $4,000,000 in
my discussions with him. . .anywhere from $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
CIRAULO My guess would be the range would be $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
ROSS That's what he said.
FASCHING Well. . .because of contingencies?
ROSS Yes. See, we wouldn't know for sure until you have a structural engineer
go in there and look since you have to decide what you're going to do with
the building, upgrades and that sort of thing, because it will have to be
seismically upgraded.
12
k,.
City, a business permit, to do these productions. He said he just can't
afford to be putting that out also.
MARGETT How much is that, George?
FASCHING I think it's $200, as I recall.
HARBICHT How much?
FASCHING Two hundred dollars, I think. So he'd like us to waive the City permit
fee since these are sort of a community-oriented type of thing. Although
he does charge $8. And, what, we're giving him two performances. What
is our rent on the other performance?
ROSS It normally is $25 an hour, but a two-hour minimum. So he'd be paying at
least $50.
FASCHING It sounds like a worthwhile program, and it's a cultural thing for the
children in the Library and adults, an activity at the Library. And I told
him I would take this to the Council and see if we would waive the business
license permit.
MARGETT O.K. , for one performance he's going to get approximately $900, is that
right, if he sells it out?
FASCHING Ninety-nine people, yeah.
MARGETT Nine hundred dollars, a little bit less than $900, is that right?
FASCHING Yeah.
MARGETT O.K. What does he have to pay for the. . .does he have to pay something for
the rights to be able to put on the show?
FASCHING I don't know how he reimburses his actors or actresses.
ROSS They're working for nothing.
MARGETT They're working for nothing?
ROSS He may have to pay for some scenery fees, have somebody build some scenery,
that may be a cost.
CIRAULO Didn't they do this over at Holly Avenue School one time years ago?
ROSS I don't recall. I know Sierra Madre has. . .he said he was involved with
that.
FASCHING He started that, the Sierra Madre Little Theater.
HARBICHT Let me ask you a question. Let's say that some piano teacher is going to
have a recital for her 10 students and so she wants to use our room and
ask the students' parents to come and hear the recital and. . .has that
happened, that kind of thing? Is it used for that kind of thing?
ROSS For recitals? Yeah, we use it for piano recitals all the time.
HARBICHT What do we charge?
ROSS In that same range, $25 an hour, $50 minimum. . .2 hours minimum,
HARBICHT What's our justification for not charging this guy? He's charging
admission.
ROSS Well, any time you waive charges it's based on the decision of the Library
Board. I mean, it's stated in the policy that this can be waived at their
discretion.
MILLER Has the Library Board ruled on this?
16
L_.
WOOLARD Well, in this market it's slim.
CIRAULO I guess you don't know. But it's not a bad idea to make them aware of it,
I think, again.
WOOLARD Can this be used outside of the redevelopment area?
KINNAHAN There's two issues. The first one, the program didn't work before because
it was--Donna, correct me--it was not very much of an incentive program.
As the program went along, they began to offer more and more incentives
and give more and more of a rebate, and towards the end of the program it
got very successful. If I recollect, there was a waiting list when the
program finally went out of business. . .there was about two or three that
were in line.
ASSISTANT There were a few. Actually, we offered the same program all along, but
PLANNING DIR. what happened was I think everybody was just very leery of it, they didn't
DONNA BUTLER really understand the project. When we had the earthquake, that was the
greatest incentive that we probably had, the Whittier earthquake. Because
that's when the first, which was the Steerburger, took advantage of the
funding. And from that point, we went down. . .everybody kind of started
asking questions. We had our consultants go individually to each of the
businesses. But that really was the first push. We had a few people
before that that did some minor painting, a couple of signs, but up until
that time it was strictly two or three businesses.
WOOLARD In that downtown area someone at that time did go store to store to inform
the people of the program, gave handouts, and they tried to provide all
the information they could on the thing.
CIRAULO That was within the redevelopment area, though.
WOOLARD It coincidentally was within that area. Outside the redevelopment area
you couldn't use the CDBG funds.
FASCHING What's the possibility of. . .there must be a firm or people that specialize
in modernizing and updated community business districts where they give
you a concept and a plan and street, and buildings, and overall design,
and this type of thing. I'd like to think that we could have somebody that
would come in and look at our City and say this is what you should do here,
and you should do here, and that, and give us an idea of a concept and a
design to follow in all aspects. . . .
HARBICHT We've already done it.
WOOLARD That's what we had in the downtown. . . .
FASCHING Well, where is it? What did they say? Everybody was going to follow a
general plan?
HARBICHT No. As a result of their plan, we established design criteria downtown,
we've got a list of colors, we have a list of materials that you have to
use if you're redesigning anything in the downtown area. We put in new
street furniture, we put in new crosswalks, we put in all new street trees
down there. All of that was a result of those recommendations. And so
we have a design criteria for downtown.
FASCHING Where did we drop the ball?
HARBICHT What do you mean?
FASCHING Well, why does it look like it does?
HARBICHT These are privately owned businesses. You can't force them to. . . .
FASCHING Well, that's what I mean. This is why we're here, is to. . .how do we get
those businesses and what steps can we take to get this job done? And what
will it take?
WOOLARD The next step we had was offering free money to. . . .
19
CIRAULO Well, what I would like to see, is there any way we can expand it beyond
the formal redevelopment area, say on First Avenue, for instance?
KINNAHAN I reviewed that with the Agency attorney, and basically, when you go
outside a project area boundary, you have to show a direct relationship
and benefit to the project area. So if you were to go across the street
from the project area, you can probably say, well, that's probably a
benefit. You start getting a block away. . . .
CIRAULO Are there any (inaudible) that we could use to help those people. . .any
programs available?
KINNAHAN Not through the Redevelopment Agency. As I understand, not the Block Grant
because. . . .
CIRAULO In any other way?
•
KINNAHAN And the only other ones would be through private financing, through a
bank. . .there is. . .that's about it.
HARBICHT There is another one. We could take City funds and make them available.
KINNAHAN Well, I'm not sure. It might get (inaudible) .
LOJESKI When you look in that book there are some outstanding examples of junk and
something that really looks nicer.
HARBICHT There's been tremendous improvements.
LOJESKI Tremendous improvements. . .but they're all downtown.
HARBICHT O.K. , well I was just responding to your suggestion that we hire a
consultant. We've already done it.
FASCHING But he didn't tell us, though, of maybe one concept to follow in the
design. In other words, let's take those little stores on Huntington
between Santa Anita. and First. They all look different. Is there
something we could do to make that whole front of those stores all kind
of tie in to one design and still maintain their individuality, but we have
something that really looks like something for the whole length of the
block instead of somebody here with one thing and somebody with something
else. It gives a whole feeling to the block, is what I'm thinking of, and
then continue it on down to Second Avenue.
MARGETT You mean a continuity of a theme, George?
FASCHING Continuity of a theme.
HARBICHT Sort of a mini-mall look.
FASCHING Jump in here.
MARGETT Well, I'm listening here. You have the microphone.
FASCHING But that's the thing I'm talking about. I think these individuals, where
this guy puts on his style awning and the other guy puts on his style
awning, and we don't have any continuity down that street. I think that
Monrovia accomplished that. . .
HARBICHT They don't have continuity. . . .
FASCHING No, wait a minute. . .through the use of trees and street design they gave
it a concept.
MARGETT Well, I think they did, Bob, down Myrtle Avenue, I think they did give it
a concept, a turn-of-the-century type of look.
FASCHING But they did it with trees and street, Bob. They didn't do it with
storefronts. Well, storefronts are nice, but they don't all look alike.
20
HARBICHT But we did it with trees, too. And crosswalks, the monument signs, the
center divider.
WOOLARD If it wasn't for racetrack traffic you could do a lot more down there, but
we need two lanes in each direction to. . . .
FASCHING Well, there's got to be something we have to do, because it can't stay
looking like that for the next 10 years. 'It looks horrible. Baldwin
Avenue, down there, that big old sign sticking out there in front of
Hinshaw's with all those places on it, I don't think that has much
attractiveness or warmth to that street. I think the best looking street
we've got is Live Oak, with the way it's laid out with the center divider
and the trees and the grass and everything, to a degree. But my feeling
is we've got to :ome up with a feeling for our City that it all ties
together. And we have some trees down on there. . .I was up on Foothill
today, we've got some big trees that need trimming, we've got some little
trees that don't need trimming, and it just doesn't look very representa-
tive of the way our City should look. Maybe we need more tree trimmers.
Donna, you wanted to say something?
BUTLER Well, the only thing I was going to point out was, in talking about. . .Will-
dan was the company that was hired to take a look at the whole entire area.
And as Bob mentioned, one of the things that they were trying to do to tie
the area together. . .because one of the biggest problems down there is you
don't have similarity of design in buildings. They talked about
things. . .they felt that trying to create a theme in the downtown area just
wasn't really a theme you could tie all the buildings into. So what they
tried to do was, at that point in time, they tried to do it by the use of
colors, tying it in with the different types of paving materials, street
furniture, and so forth. Because that was the biggest problem that they
had. And it was presented to the Council, and the Council at the time went
along with the fact that it's very difficult to create a theme that doesn't
exist. I mean, you've got buildings that are so different in design and
style, so that was the use of the colors, the types of materials in the
downtown area, and that's why we adopted the downtown design overlay, which
set forth the specific colors, signing. . .which we're still trying to
encourage the replacement of older signs, but it still hasn't taken place
everywhere. But that was a major discussion. We've got a plan, which is
approximately yea big, that was done at the time they discussed all the
different treatments, what could be done and what couldn't be done and so
forth. We used,Block Grant funds to finance that study, and it's just that
I think it's important. . .you know, we did try to come up with something,
but I think it was felt that this was the best way to tie everything
together was through the use of landscaping. . . .
FASCHING Then I guess maybe what we're looking at here is how do we complete the
program that we came up with.
CIRAULO Well, I'd like to ask, if we can, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to ask Howard, do
you have any feel for how the merchants might feel, Howard, about this
idea, or have you heard anything?
HOWARD LAREW I've mainly heard, in South Arcadia, Joe, that people are not real excited
(PRES. , CH. OF with the storefronts down there. Downtown along Huntington Drive has
COMMERCE) certainly improved over the years, and I have no feel for individual
businesses as to whether they would be willing to put up their own funds
to do it. I think with the economy the way it is, they're all looking for
help. And I think they'd probably be receptive to some kind of a program.
CIRAULO I know I hear occasionally from the people on First Avenue south of
Huntington. But the problem, Pete tells us, that's not even the original
redevelopment area. So that's a whole different kind of an idea. . .a whole
different ballgame.
HARBICHT I think that, with regard to downtown. . .I'm talking about Huntington Drive
when I say downtown. . .a number of businesses took advantages of the Block
Grant program that we have. A number of others have gone ahead and
upgraded their storefronts. We still have some that are left to do. And
I don't think that a theme is feasible. I don't think it's feasible to
say anybody that redoes their storefront has to make it look like a western
21
ROSS Yes. They did say that it would be. . .they would give this approval
contingent upon his obtaining Workers Compensation insurance.
HARBICHT Well, what are we talking about it for, then?
MILLER I was going to say, it's not on the agenda tonight so you can't act on it.
FASCHING Well, we're not. . .I'm just throwing this out to Council.
MILLER Oh, O.K.
WOOLARD From the Council he's looking at us to waive the City fee.
ROSS You're talking about the work permit, which I have no knowledge of.
HARBICHT You mean the business license fee, is that what he's talking about getting
waived?
LOJESKI He's running a business and collects the admission. Why. . . .
HARBICHT Why would we do that?
FASCHING Well, I think the only reason we would think about it is, number one, it
brings a little cultural theater to the Library for the benefit of the
students and adults. I don't know what his expenses are, but I know he
has rehearsals for these plays and things like that. He's going to put
out $1,250 up front to State Fund, he tells me, to acquire the Workman's
Comp. So his attitude was. . .he's very nice about the whole thing, I mean
he's a resident of the City and says that he just doesn't have a whole lot
of money to be putting out on this type of thing. I don't think the guy's
going to get rich on it, myself, but he'll make a few bucks probably. It's
not a big deal. So, I don't know. . .whichever way you gentlemen want to
go. But you have to look at it, is it bringing something of value to the
City even though he is going to get reimbursed on some level for it, but
is it important to the City and the community.
MARGETT I always go back to precedent. In other words, we let this guy do it,
then. . .you know, I can remember here at that last Council meeting somebody
came in and wanted fees waived for putting in a generator for taking
pictures over at the Arboretum, and we said no. I don't know whether or
not you can all of a sudden say, well, yes, we'll allow the show at the
Library, but we're not going to be able to allow somebody to make a few
nickels putting on a production over at the Arboretum. Nobody's cutting
a fat hog, I don't think. But by the same token, I think we better
establish a policy so that if something down the road comes, you're going
to be consistent.
FASCHING We already have a policy. I think we have to decide each one, if we feel
if it's a benefit to the community, and then make the decision. I don't
happen to feel that the generator situation in the Arboretum, making a
commercial film, is of any benefit to the City. But little kids going to
a play at the Library might be a different situation.
HARBICHT Well, we can't make a decision right. . .though I guess I'm not in favor of
waiving the fee.
FASCHING O.K.
MARGETT I wouldn't be either.
FASCHING O.K. I just wanted to get a feeling out of you gentlemen.
2. BUSINESS O.K. We'll go on to the next item on the agenda. . .the business districts.
DISTRICTS - All right. Then the next item is Redevelopment on the business district.
MAYOR FASCHING Prior to that, I'd like to make one little announcement here, which I think
you're all aware of. There is a conference in San Jose on August 6 and
7 concerning downtown revitalization, Main Street prototypes. And I
intend to go to this. This might be of interest to us down the road
concerning our own business district. So I wanted to remind you of that
17
conference. And we have Mr. Larew from our Chamber of Commerce in the
audience. He is available to us for any item we may want to ask
him, on behalf of the Chamber. And I think the main point of this
discussion on business districts is a general feeling--and correct me if
I'm wrong--that we feel that there needs to be something done with our
business districts. The business district on Huntington Drive, the
business district on First Avenue for what's there, but just revitaliza-
tion. Baldwin Avenue falls into this perspective also, as does Live Oak
Avenue down in South Arcadia. And I think that this has been talked back
and forth in years, but nothing really being accomplished in it when we
look at other cities and what they've done with their business districts.
So, with that I'll open it up to general discussion. Mr. Harbicht.
HARBICHT Well, we've got this memo dated 6/10 on things that have been done, can
be done, and the one thing I see missing from here is this ^rogram that
we've had for redoing the facades of businesses in the downy .in area.
WOOLARD We've put together a book of before and afters. Some of these .11 be done
with a funding program that we had through the Block Grant Program. The
others were done individually.
CIRAULO Do we still have that program available? It was, what, a 50-50 thing, is
that how it worked?
WOOLARD _ It's still possible, but it's questionable as to the value of it at this
point.
HARBICHT How many did we do, or were done, under that program?
WOOLARD We did. . .about 16 or so places got some funds. Some were complete facade
removals and others were just for signs and awnings. So some were major
things and others were minor. The problem is that the amount of funding
that you now have to devote to your person of low-moderate income, that
percentage has increased. So the amount of money that would be available
for this program is substantially reduced. The fact that you have to go
through Mavis Bacon for the contractors and stuff makes it difficult to
find somebody, and the administration costs of monitoring all of their
employees and everything else makes it not a very cost-effective program.
But there are other ways the same types of things can be funded. Loans
through redevelopment agencies rather than just loans for other types of
(inaudible) might be available rather than the Block Grants. They're not
as constrained as the Block Grants were. Maybe it will have some. . . .
KINNAHAN In your package that Bob referred to, number seven refers to information
on a possible agency pilot commercial investor rebate loan program. That
deals exactly with picking up where the CDBG program left off. Where the
Redevelopment Agency could, in the downtown, finance a rehab commercial
loan program, or a grant program, (inaudible) program. We've done some
initial research into programs offered through other cities and other
agencies. We've researched the downtown as to the possible need for such.
The need is there. The program exists in other communities. We have funds
available in Arcadia to create such a program if the Agency wants it, in
this case the Agency. We can certainly come back to you with a clear
program concept where we can attack the small problem like signs. We can
probably create an architectural incentive program where there's two or
three architects who can assist a business. We help to pay for it, to
encourage them to take advantage of our design criteria, and then we can
also provide the rebate loan, the rebate to them to do the work. And it's
being modeled very much on the CDBG program.
CIRAULO Well, I like that whole idea.
HARBICHT Yeah, but we've already done it.
KINNAHAN We have, but there's quite a few more to do. We're not done yet.
CIRAULO There's a lot more to do.
HARBICHT The others didn't move when we offered it before. What's the probability
that they would move if we offered it again?
18
L_.
WOOLARD Well, in this market it's slim.
CIRAULO I guess you don't know. But it's not a bad idea to make them aware of it,
I think, again.
WOOLARD Can this be used outside of the redevelopment area?
KINNAHAN There's two issues. The first one, the program didn't work before because
it was--Donna, correct me--it was not very much of an incentive program.
As the program went along, they began to offer more and more incentives
and give more and more of a rebate, and towards the end of the program it
got very successful. If I recollect, there was a waiting list when the
program finally went out of business. . .there was about two or three that
were in line.
ASSISTANT There were a few. Actually, we offered the same program all along, but
PLANNING DIR. what happened was I think everybody was just very leery of it, they didn't
DONNA BUTLER really understand the project. When we had the earthquake, that was the
greatest incentive that we probably had, the Whittier earthquake. Because
that's when the first, which was the Steerburger, took advantage of the
funding. And from that point, we went down. . .everybody kind of started
asking questions. We had our consultants go individually to each of the
businesses. But that really was the first push. We had a few people
before that that did some minor painting, a couple of signs, but up until
that time it was strictly two or three businesses.
WOOLARD In that downtown area someone at that time did go store to store to inform
the people of the program, gave handouts, and they tried to provide all
the information they could on the thing.
CIRAULO That was within the redevelopment area, though.
WOOLARD It coincidentally was within that area. Outside the redevelopment area
you couldn't use the CDBG funds.
FASCHING What's the possibility of. . .there must be a firm or people that specialize
in modernizing and updated community business districts where they give
you a concept and a plan and street, and buildings, and overall design,
and this type of thing. I'd like to think that we could have somebody that
would come in and look at our City and say this is what you should do here,
and you should do here, and that, and give us an idea of a concept and a
design to follow in all aspects. . . .
HARBICHT We've already done it.
WOOLARD That's what we had in the downtown. . . .
FASCHING Well, where is it? What did they say? Everybody was going to follow a
general plan?
HARBICHT No. As a result of their plan, we established design criteria downtown,
we've got a list of colors, we have a list of materials that you have to
use if you're redesigning anything in the downtown area. We put in new
street furniture, we put in new crosswalks, we put in all new street trees
down there. All of that was a result of those recommendations. And so
we have a design criteria for downtown.
FASCHING Where did we drop the ball?
HARBICHT What do you mean?
FASCHING Well, why does it look like it does?
HARBICHT These are privately owned businesses. You can't force them to. . . .
FASCHING Well, that's what I mean. This is why we're here, is to. . .how do we get
those businesses and what steps can we take to get this job done? And what
will it take?
WOOLARD The next step we had was offering free money to. . . .
19
CIRAULO Well, what I would like to see, is there any way we can expand it beyond
the formal redevelopment area, say on First Avenue, for instance?
KINNAHAN I reviewed that with the Agency attorney, and basically, when you go
outside a project area boundary, you have to show a direct relationship
and benefit to the project area. So if you were to go across the street
from the project area, you can probably say, well, that's probably a
benefit. You start getting a block away. . . .
CIRAULO Are there any (inaudible) that we could use to help those people. . .any
programs available?
KINNAHAN Not through the Redevelopment Agency. As I understand, not the Block Grant
because. . . .
CIRAULO In any other way?
•
KINNAHAN And the only other ones would be through private financing, through a
bank. . .there is. . .that's about it.
HARBICHT There is another one. We could take City funds and make them available.
KINNAHAN Well, I'm not sure. It might get (inaudible) .
LOJESKI When you look in that book there are some outstanding examples of junk and
something that really looks nicer.
HARBICHT There's been tremendous improvements.
LOJESKI Tremendous improvements. . .but they're all downtown.
HARBICHT O.K. , well I was just responding to your suggestion that we hire a
consultant. We've already done it.
FASCHING But he didn't tell us, though, of maybe one concept to follow in the
design. In other words, let's take those little stores on Huntington
between Santa Anita. and First. They all look different. Is there
something we could do to make that whole front of those stores all kind
of tie in to one design and still maintain their individuality, but we have
something that really looks like something for the whole length of the
block instead of somebody here with one thing and somebody with something
else. It gives a whole feeling to the block, is what I'm thinking of, and
then continue it on down to Second Avenue.
MARGETT You mean a continuity of a theme, George?
FASCHING Continuity of a theme.
HARBICHT Sort of a mini-mall look.
FASCHING Jump in here.
MARGETT Well, I'm listening here. You have the microphone.
FASCHING But that's the thing I'm talking about. I think these individuals, where
this guy puts on his style awning and the other guy puts on his style
awning, and we don't have any continuity down that street. I think that
Monrovia accomplished that. . .
HARBICHT They don't have continuity. . . .
FASCHING No, wait a minute. . .through the use of trees and street design they gave
it a concept.
MARGETT Well, I think they did, Bob, down Myrtle Avenue, I think they did give it
a concept, a turn-of-the-century type of look.
FASCHING But they did it with trees and street, Bob. They didn't do it with
storefronts. Well, storefronts are nice, but they don't all look alike.
20
HARBICHT But we did it with trees, too. And crosswalks, the monument signs, the
center divider.
WOOLARD If it wasn't for racetrack traffic you could do a lot more down there, but
we need two lanes in each direction to. . . .
FASCHING Well, there's got to be something we have to do, because it can't stay
looking like that for the next 10 years. 'It looks horrible. Baldwin
Avenue, down there, that big old sign sticking out there in front of
Hinshaw's with all those places on it, I don't think that has much
attractiveness or warmth to that street. I think the best looking street
we've got is Live Oak, with the way it's laid out with the center divider
and the trees and the grass and everything, to a degree. But my feeling
is we've got to :ome up with a feeling for our City that it all ties
together. And we have some trees down on there. . .I was up on Foothill
today, we've got some big trees that need trimming, we've got some little
trees that don't need trimming, and it just doesn't look very representa-
tive of the way our City should look. Maybe we need more tree trimmers.
Donna, you wanted to say something?
BUTLER Well, the only thing I was going to point out was, in talking about. . .Will-
dan was the company that was hired to take a look at the whole entire area.
And as Bob mentioned, one of the things that they were trying to do to tie
the area together. . .because one of the biggest problems down there is you
don't have similarity of design in buildings. They talked about
things. . .they felt that trying to create a theme in the downtown area just
wasn't really a theme you could tie all the buildings into. So what they
tried to do was, at that point in time, they tried to do it by the use of
colors, tying it in with the different types of paving materials, street
furniture, and so forth. Because that was the biggest problem that they
had. And it was presented to the Council, and the Council at the time went
along with the fact that it's very difficult to create a theme that doesn't
exist. I mean, you've got buildings that are so different in design and
style, so that was the use of the colors, the types of materials in the
downtown area, and that's why we adopted the downtown design overlay, which
set forth the specific colors, signing. . .which we're still trying to
encourage the replacement of older signs, but it still hasn't taken place
everywhere. But that was a major discussion. We've got a plan, which is
approximately yea big, that was done at the time they discussed all the
different treatments, what could be done and what couldn't be done and so
forth. We used,Block Grant funds to finance that study, and it's just that
I think it's important. . .you know, we did try to come up with something,
but I think it was felt that this was the best way to tie everything
together was through the use of landscaping. . . .
FASCHING Then I guess maybe what we're looking at here is how do we complete the
program that we came up with.
CIRAULO Well, I'd like to ask, if we can, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to ask Howard, do
you have any feel for how the merchants might feel, Howard, about this
idea, or have you heard anything?
HOWARD LAREW I've mainly heard, in South Arcadia, Joe, that people are not real excited
(PRES. , CH. OF with the storefronts down there. Downtown along Huntington Drive has
COMMERCE) certainly improved over the years, and I have no feel for individual
businesses as to whether they would be willing to put up their own funds
to do it. I think with the economy the way it is, they're all looking for
help. And I think they'd probably be receptive to some kind of a program.
CIRAULO I know I hear occasionally from the people on First Avenue south of
Huntington. But the problem, Pete tells us, that's not even the original
redevelopment area. So that's a whole different kind of an idea. . .a whole
different ballgame.
HARBICHT I think that, with regard to downtown. . .I'm talking about Huntington Drive
when I say downtown. . .a number of businesses took advantages of the Block
Grant program that we have. A number of others have gone ahead and
upgraded their storefronts. We still have some that are left to do. And
I don't think that a theme is feasible. I don't think it's feasible to
say anybody that redoes their storefront has to make it look like a western
21
saloon, or whatever we decide is the theme. I just don't think that's
feasible because we're having a hard enough time just getting the majority
of them to redo their fronts. I mean, it's taken us years. But I think
the best that we can realistically shoot for is to try to get some of those
other ones that are in pretty bad shape to redo their storefronts within
the color and materials guidelines that we have in force down there, which
they would have to use if they do redo it. So the real question is, how
can we get them to do it? And it sounds to me that maybe using some
redevelopment funds and putting a priority on that in that we ask that some
significant amount of staff time be invested in contacting people, saying
the City is willing to put up this much money, or whatever, to help you
do this. And I think the possibility of maybe having two or three
architects who are tuned into the program, and we could say if you'll
contact one of these people, or we'll have one of them contact you, is the
only way we're going to accomplish it. Because we've got all kinds of
absentee owners down there who don't see it. . . .
FASCHING Well, I agree with what you're saying. I think. . .probably a concept we'd
like to see, but I think maybe it might be well for us to concentrate on
what we can do. In other words, what we can do with our streets, what we
can do with our landscaping and our trees, to make it much more desirable.
Then we go. . . .
•
HARBICHT Like what?
FASCHING Well, I don't know, but we can certainly. . . .
HARBICHT We put in all new street trees three or four years ago. . .
FASCHING Well, maybe there's some more we can do, I don't know.
HARBICHT . . .we redid the railroad bridge, we got the center divider, and we put in
crosswalks. I don't know what's left.
FASCHING Well, O.K. It's always good. . .we can still take another look at it from
that standpoint. That's what we can do. What we can't do is come up with
a theme or this other thing. But to try to make available to these
business owners what we can to rehabilitate their storefronts, and if they
don't want to do it then what do we have, as a body, that we can do by
resolution to make them. . .force them to get into a. . . .
HARBICHT Force them to do it?
FASCHING Well, I don't know, maybe condemn their property. . .they're in a
redevelopment area.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, you know, I talked to a realtor, a prominent realtor in town,
and we were talking much in the same vein that the Council is talking right
now. She said that invariably the owners or the tenants that are in these
small stores really don't want anything more to be done on the front of
those stores, because invariably then the landlord wants to raise rents
and they cannot afford rents. . .now this is what she said. She said that
there's nothing that would really induce. . .and what you need on Huntington
Drive, if we're still talking Huntington Drive, is something that would
induce foot traffic on Huntington Drive. There's nobody that wants to park
over in back of Jimmy Chin's building or in front of the post office and
walk across the street and walk up and down Huntington Drive to be able
to buy something. There's just not that inducement. I was thinking just ,
the other day. . .and I don't know whether staff has had any consideration
about this. . .but we've got, apparently, a post office that's going to be
torn down and refurbished. I think there's a ton of foot traffic in front
of that post office. I don't know whether we should not consider
putting. . .
[End of Tape 1 - Side 2, beginning of Tape 2 - Side 1]
. . .stuff money into it and let's get block grants, let's get. . .and so on
and so forth. . .and we might be just trying to chase a dead horse. It might
22
11
very well be that that area has purely lost it's economic use for that
area. It just may not be. . . .
Why?
HARGETT . . .where it is. And that's a natural transition that's taken place.
FASCHING Well, what do you do with it then?
CIRAULO With a lack of parking, that could very well be.
FASCHING What do we do with it?
LOJESKI That's your whole key. The whole key to the situation, George. Look at
the north side versus the south side.
MARGETT You say what do you do with it. . .excuse me, Dennis, I cut you off. I
didn't mean to.
LOJESKI No, I interrupted you. But I'm just saying, look at the north side versus
the south side of the street between First Avenue and Santa Anita. I look
at it every day. The north side has plenty of traffic. Why? Why do the
storefronts look better? Why do you have businesses proliferating on that
side? You've got parking for the customers. The minute you take parking ,
away, such as you have done, or there's a lack of 'it. . .we haven't
done. . .but that's the way the area developed. The businesses are in
shambles on the south side of the street.
MARGETT Well, see, staff will tell you that there's sufficient parking in the area
to be able to take care of both,the north and south sides.
LOJESKI Gockley's is gone because Gockley's, first of all, had two parking spaces
behind their store and people couldn't come in there. They couldn't
function.
FASCHING Gockley's, I think, was a result of being gobbled up by people that. . .all
the wholesale stationery stores.
LOJESKI But that's the value of retail business today. You have to make yourself
available to the customer. If the customer is going to come into a mama
and poppa area, there's got to be incentive. And if you can't park right
there. . .you know, a signal, a better situation for that intersection of
Huntington and First was put in. . .what did it do? It took parking spaces
away on the street. There was no additional parking to the poor businesses
on the west side of the street, and that stationery store went under. In
other words, it was just another thing that happened down there.
FASCHING Then I guess we can throw First Avenue into the same category. Maybe it's
beyond it's, commercial use.
LOJESKI I don't know. It's all in the redevelopment area.
FASCHING I come back to the question, what do we do with it? Just let it sit?
HARGETT No.
FASCHING What?
LOJESKI I think you've given incentives to the people in that area, much more than
we've ever been able to give, than we've ever done in West Arcadia, South
Arcadia, Foothill Boulevard. We haven't gotten into any assistance
programs up in those areas.
MARGETT We can't do everything. In other words, if it's true what you said, that
we have provided all those incentives, City government, local government,
has been able to provide those incentives and we've gone the extra mile
and we've had the staff reports and we've had the consultants go ahead and
look at those areas and still things haven't clicked, then I would say that
it could very well be that we've lost our use. for that land. When you find
condominiums coming right back up to the developments that are all on the
23
south side of Huntington Drive, you're not going to go in there and lay
those waste and build more parking area, I don't think. And I would say
that it may very well be, Mr. Mayor, to be able to. . .and I'm sure that a
feasibility study as to what that area should be may be just what you want
to do.
LOJESKI The Willdan study did that. The Willdan study addressed the south side
of Huntington Drive and said if it's going to remain in the long-range plan
of things a business commercial area, there has to be parking created.
And their recommendation was to take the north side of Alta Street and
devote that to parking. So you've got now developable sites, O.K.? You've
got the availability, hypothetically, of AT&T to come in, let's say, and
build a three-story building. . . .
FASCHING Where?
LOJESKI On Huntington Drive, let's say.
FASCHING Between First and Santa Anita?
LOJESKI Could be. Could be. You've got an anchor on one side which is a bank,
George, O.K.? It's the only decent building, I think, in that whole block.
FASCHING Home Savings?
LOJESKI Sure.
MARGETT And they're short of parking.
LOJESKI Not really.
HARGETT Well, their parking is across the street. . .is that what somebody's going
to do to cash their. . . .
LOJESKI No, but that's my point, O.K.? If you cannot go to a mama and poppa store,
then what's the incentive to go there? You're going to go to a mall,
you're going to go to Monrovia, or wherever is convenient.
MARGETT But what I'm saying, the next step, if we're going to generate parking,
where are you going to generate it? Go in there and lay waste some of
those condominiums that are brand new?
LOJESKI From between First and Second, you're stuck. Between Santa Anita and First
Avenue you're not stuck. By that I'm saying just by the age of the
structures.
HARBICHT Yeah, but you're stuck from a cost standpoint.
LOJESKI Sure. No doubt about it. I'm just saying we have a study that was done.
If I'm wrong Bill, that was one of three studies over the last 25 years,
I think, that's been done. They have all addressed the south side of
Huntington Drive in that very direct (inaudible) .
MARGETT In other words, does that study say that that is a viable economic entity
on the south side of Huntington Drive, we can really make some money there
if we provide parking?
LOJESKI If you have parking.
FASCHING Well, I doubt that very much.
MARGETT So do I.
LOJESKI George, it's undevelopable from a retail standpoint. . . .
FASCHING We already have all this development land out there that we want to develop
anyway. What we want to do is clean up the looks of the business district.
We don't have the parking, they're stuck there. And if we don't clean them
up, we don't have the parking, what are we going to do with them?
24
( )
HARBICHT I think we've got two different things here we're talking about. One is
parking, that's a whole separate issue. And if we want to take that
up. . .there's no question that parking would help the viability of that
area. But the cost of providing that parking is so astronomical that I
don't think that. . . .
FASCHING Plus the cost of relocating all those tenants and the (inaudible) . It's
not even in the ballpark.
HARBICHT The second issue is to say, what can we do to clean up that area, to get
the rest of it looking nice. And I guess I come back to what I said
before, is I think that I would be willing to entertain the idea of using,
maybe, some redevelopment money and putting together a program much like
we had before but maybe with a little less red tape. But basically, what
you're going to be doing when you cut it all away is you're saying to the
owner, "If you'll spend $30,000 fixing up the front of this building, we'll
pay for $15,000 of it." That's what it'comes down to.
FASCHING But you know what? It wouldn't cost him $30,000.
HARBICHT I just use that as an example. I don't know what it would cost.
FASCHING They don't want to spend five grand.
HARBICHT But I specifically reject the idea that we say, "Well, if you won't do it
voluntarily, somehow we're going to make you do it." Because I won't vote
to do that. I don't know if it's possible, but if it was, I wouldn't vote
to do it.
CIRAULO They're all doing so poorly, I just don't think they have the money to. . . .
FASCHING Who's they? Not the property owners, the guys renting the buildings are
doing poorly.
CIRAULO Yeah, the businesses that are there.
FASCHING The guys that own the property paid for it a long time ago.
CIRAULO He doesn't care.
FASCHING It's all lint in his pocket.
CIRAULO I'm talking about the poor little business guy who's there.
FASCHING That's right. So then our City slinks along with these businesses looking
like heck on Huntington Drive. The property owner puts all that paid-off
building money in his pocket. And we can end up with people doing pawn
shops with gates on the front and all that type of stuff.
MARGETT We're getting back to the thesis that I put out on the table, Mr. Mayor.
Maybe you have lost that use of that property.
FASCHING O.K. , then I'll pose this question to you--what are we going to do with
it?
MARGETT O.K. , well, we're going full circle here. If that is viable, if we know
for sure that we can make things click down there by providing Block Grant
funds or similar programs, I would be in favor of that. But there's no
sense in going in there and giving a Block Grant-type program and still
have people worried that their rental rates are going to go up. And we
haven't really generated any of the income or the tax that we can get to
substantiate spending the money.
CIRAULO See, I think they're going to get even less traffic and do less business
once Nordstrom's moves in and the mall has got a whole new thing.
FASCHING I think we should go on to the next subject. . .we'll never come to a. . . .
CIRAULO Well, I know, but what do we do with it?
25
FASCHING Yeah, what do we do with it? That's what we're here for, to decide what
to do with it, not to find out all the economical problems of those guys
selling costumes and everything.
MARGETT I think that a lot of it. . .and we're sitting here trying to make that
decision, Mr. Mayor. But, you know, we've got the Chamber of Commerce and
we've got the owners of the building, and we've also got the tenants of
the building. They should be saying, hey, this is what would be beneficial
for this downtown area. And I don't hear them saying anything.
CIRAULO Well, let me ask, Pete, you attend the Downtown Business Association
meetings occasionally. What do they say, what's the feel, what do you
hear?
KINNAHAN I don't recall that really coming up. It's, probably a question -~at can
be posed to them :o get their input.
LOJESKI I'll give you an answer to that, Joe. Bob and I, as two candidates for
the City Council, attended a meeting with the downtown Arcadia business
merchants. Their key question to all the candidates is what are you going
to do to protect. . .I'll give you an example. . .the guy that owns and
operates Rod's Diner says, "What are you going to do to protect my business
so I can stay in business at the expense of what's going to develop—at the
Ford agency? What is your concept, Mr. Councilman? What are you going
to do so my business doesn't suffer?" That's a tough question to answer.
That's where their concern was. The old, established guy, he'll continue
to operate down there.
FASCHING I don't know. That's an old, established restaurant, Rod's. Well, the
thing here is that we can go over all of these problems to the shop owner,
the retailer, the property owner, but we're not getting to the solving of
the problem. If it looks like hell, how do we make it look better
for. . .and you can't convince me that if everything looks better they're
not going to enjoy more business, with one problem in mind is the parking
on the south side of Huntington. But if you continue to allow these to
exist and continue to deteriorate, and the lower class retailer is getting
in there because the place looks like hell in a period of time, that
doesn't help our City.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, would you suggest that we have a session with representatives
of the downtown owners and the tenants and the Chamber of Commerce and see
what they would think that would be beneficial for them down there?
FASCHING No, I wouldn't.
MARGETT Well, how can we sit here and tell them that this is going to be good for
them?
FASCHING, O.K. , all I'm looking at is this. We're probably looking at maybe eight
or nine property owners involved in this. Any businessman in his right
mind would not tell us that improvements of the business district would
not be beneficial to him. So if I wanted him to come in and tell me how
to handle the property owners and get them to do what they should do to
improve their buildings, that's one thing. But they can't tell us that.
They can only tell us what they consider is a good retailing situation.
And we know what a good retailing situation is. Not a deteriorating
retailing situation. And I think I come back to Bob, we have to have
somebody that goes out and calls on these property owners and convinces
them that it's in the best interest of our City, and them, and their future
to participate in an upgrade of their business front, and try and do that.
MARGETT You know, George, I think that's fine. I just don't know that we're
hitting nails on heads and getting to the root of the problem. Putting
a new storefront and then saying everybody is going to come in here and
buy new watches or whatever this guy is trying to sell over there, I don't
know whether they're going to be able to do that.
FASCHING Well, then, let's blow it up. We'll get rid of it.
26
MARGETT So everybody can walk down or drive down Huntington Drive and say, "This
is beautiful"?
FASCHING You're saying just because. . .I'm not talking about. . .you're saying just
because we say new storefronts, new awnings, and it looks nice, and paint
and everything else, that they're going to sell more watches? I can't
guarantee that, Bob. But I can guarantee it's going to sure make our City
look a lot better.
MARGETT No question about it.
FASCHING That's what I'm interested in.
MARGETT O.K. , but how is this guy going to substantiate the spending of $30,000
or $15,000 or whatever?
FASCHING You don't know. . .Bob, to fix up the storefront on one of those small
buildings, I would estimate would be $3,000, $3,500. Buy a canopy and
paint. Maybe some new facade on it with the split brick or something.
You're not talking $30,000. I do my carwash once a year. I make the whole
thing look different, it doesn't cost me more than $8,000 or $9,000.
CIRAULO You're saying split that cost with them? The City split the cost with. . . .
FASCHING Do we have the money available in Community Block Grant funds?
KINNAHAN Redevelopment funds.
FASCHING Sure. We have to have a program that we're going to go out there and sell
these people.
LOJESKI What about this Business Improvement District? What is that all about?
WOOLARD That's like an ABA, who had formed their own group. And they can be taxed
on their business licenses to put money into their association. They then
sponsor events and do other promotional activities and stuff to encourage
activities, hopefully, spending the money within their district.
CIRAULO I have to agree with everybody else. There is very little that they can
do that's going to encourage more business because there's no parking.
So the business they have now, that's pretty much the business they're
going to get. But what we could do is improve the appearance of the
street, I guess that's what we're talking about, right?
WOOLARD I think you've got a real problem down there. . .I don't want to say real
problem. . .you have a problem in that it's not going to be a retail area.
You can fix up the storefronts to look fantastic, and you're still not
going to get anybody selling anything because that's not where people go
to buy. They go to the malls, they go to the mini malls.
FASCHING Well, not necessarily. They're all open, doing business.
LOJESKI Look what's on the north side, George. You've got. . . .
FASCHING There's vacancies on the north side, too. There's vacancies. Gockley's
has been vacant for a year.
LOJESKI It's been sold.
FASCHING Well, just recently.
HARBICHT Are you saying, if it's moving away from retail, the retail office. . . .
LOJESKI You're moving into offices. . .you've got attorneys on the north side, you've
got a hair dressing salon, which is a destination that women. . . .
FASCHING O.K. , whether it be an attorney's office or hair. . .I don't care if it's
retail. I just want it to look good. I don't care what's in there.
HARBICHT How many want it to look good?
27
MARGETT So everybody can walk down or drive down Huntington Drive and say, "This
is beautiful"?
FASCHING You're saying just because. . .I'm not talking about. . .you're saying just
because we say new storefronts, new awnings, and it looks nice, and paint
and everything else, that they're going to sell more watches? I can't
guarantee that, Bob. But I can guarantee it's going to sure make our City
look a lot better.
MARGETT No question about it.
FASCHING That's what I'm interested in.
MARGETT O.K. , but how is this guy going to substantiate the spending of $30,000
or $15,000 or whatever?
FASCHING You don't know. . .Bob, to fix up the storefront on one of those small
buildings, I would estimate would be $3,000, $3,500. Buy a canopy and
paint. Maybe some new facade on it with the split brick or something.
You're not talking $30,000. I do my carwash once a year. I make the whole
thing look different, it doesn't cost me more than $8,000 or $9,000.
CIRAULO You're saying split that cost with them? The City split the cost with. . . .
FASCHING Do we have the money available in Community Block Grant funds?
KINNAHAN Redevelopment funds.
FASCHING Sure. We have to have a program that we're going to go out there and sell
these people.
LOJESKI What about this Business Improvement District? What is that all about?
WOOLARD That's like an ABA, who had formed their own group. And they can be taxed
on their business licenses to put money into their association. They then
sponsor events and do other promotional activities and stuff to encourage
activities, hopefully, spending the money within their district.
CIRAULO I have to agree with everybody else. There is very little that they can
do that's going to encourage more business because there's no parking.
So the business they have now, that's pretty much the business they're
going to get. But what we could do is improve the appearance of the
street, I guess that's what we're talking about, right?
WOOLARD I think you've got a real problem down there. . .I don't want to say real
problem. . .you have a problem in that it's not going to be a retail area.
You can fix up the storefronts to look fantastic, and you're still not
going to get anybody selling anything because that's not where people go
to buy. They go to the malls, they go to the mini malls.
FASCHING Well, not necessarily. They're all open, doing business.
LOJESKI Look what's on the north side, George. You've got. . . .
FASCHING There's vacancies on the north side, too. There's vacancies. Gockley's
has been vacant for a year.
LOJESKI It's been sold.
FASCHING Well, just recently.
HARBICHT Are you saying, if it's moving away from retail, the retail office. . . .
LOJESKI You're moving into offices. . .you've got attorneys on the north side, you've
got a hair dressing salon, which is a destination that women. . . .
FASCHING O.K. , whether it be an attorney's office or hair. . .I don't care if it's
retail. I just want it to look good. I don't care what's in there.
HARBICHT How many want it to look good?
27
MARGETT So everybody can walk down or drive down Huntington Drive and say, "This
is beautiful"?
FASCHING You're saying just because. . .I'm not talking about. . .you're saying just
because we say new storefronts, new awnings, and it looks nice, and paint
and everything else, that they're going to sell more watches? I can't
guarantee that, Bob. But I can guarantee it's going to sure make our City
look a lot better.
MARGETT No question about it.
FASCHING That's what I'm interested in.
MARGETT O.K. , but how is this guy going to substantiate the spending of $30,000
or $15,000 or whatever?
FASCHING You don't know. . .Bob, to fix up the storefront on one of those small
buildings, I would estimate would be $3,000, $3,500. Buy a canopy and
paint. Maybe some new facade on it with the split brick or something.
You're not talking $30,000. I do my carwash once a year. I make the whole
thing look different, it doesn't cost me more than $8,000 or $9,000.
CIRAULO You're saying split that cost with them? The City split the cost with. . . .
FASCHING Do we have the money available in Community Block Grant funds?
KINNAHAN Redevelopment funds.
FASCHING Sure. We have to have a program that we're going to go out there and sell
these people.
LOJESKI What about this Business Improvement District? What is that all about?
WOOLARD That's like an ABA, who had formed their own group. And they can be taxed
on their business licenses to put money into their association. They then
sponsor events and do other promotional activities and stuff to encourage
activities, hopefully, spending the money within their district.
CIRAULO I have to agree with everybody else. There is very little that they can
do that's going to encourage more business because there's no parking.
So the business they have now, that's pretty much the business they're
going to get. But what we could do is improve the appearance of the
street, I guess that's what we're talking about, right?
WOOLARD I think you've got a real problem down there. . .I don't want to say real
problem. . .you have a problem in that it's not going to be a retail area.
You can fix up the storefronts to look fantastic, and you're still not
going to get anybody selling anything because that's not where people go
to buy. They go to the malls, they go to the mini malls.
FASCHING Well, not necessarily. They're all open, doing business.
LOJESKI Look what's on the north side, George. You've got. . . .
FASCHING There's vacancies on the north side, too. There's vacancies. Gockley's
has been vacant for a year.
LOJESKI It's been sold.
FASCHING Well, just recently.
HARBICHT Are you saying, if it's moving away from retail, the retail office. . . .
LOJESKI You're moving into offices. . .you've got attorneys on the north side, you've
got a hair dressing salon, which is a destination that women. . . .
FASCHING O.K. , whether it be an attorney's office or hair. . .I don't care if it's
retail. I just want it to look good. I don't care what's in there.
HARBICHT How many want it to look good?
27
- )
.y
Springfield, Illinois, that, I tell you. . .he went in there and was checking
with the Chamber of Commerce and the Redevelopment Agency that they have
there. And I tell you, they would do anything to get this fellow to move
from Irwindale back there to be able to manufacture furniture com-
ponents. . .labor market, less labor market, less OSHA, less everything, to
be able to do that. And I think that you're going to be competing, we're
going to be competing with that type of marketing.
FASCHING Plus, his family could buy a 3,000-square-foot house for $135,000.
MARGETT Right, the housing. . .right, George, that's another aspect of it.
LOJESKI Is our current attitude, I would hope, is an extremely positive one, to
actually sell the attributes of Arcadia. . .not sell the City down the road
or the river, or give things away, give the ranch away. . .but I mean to sell
the attributes to the development world and the possibilities of those
particular sites. They may be bastardized sites as far as looking like
arrowheads and things like that, but talk about the quality of the
community, freeway accessibility, even from a signage standpoint, O.K.?
And from that standpoint maybe we should be in mode to somewhat relax our
standards and that sort of thing. So if it was a viable business that was
backing up to the freeway that they could have some exposure so people
would know where they were.
HARBICHT Well, we have a fantastic brochure that does just that.
LOJESKI Has it ever been published or put out to anybody?
KINNAHAN Mm-hm. It was mailed out. . .we've used this extensively. As a matter of
fact, we're coming to the end of the number. . . .
MARGETT But, you know, the other thing that concerns me, gentlemen, about Arcadia
is the demographics that we have to offer a person coming in. You know,
we don't have a lot of people per square mile in Arcadia. We're fortunate
enough to have a lot of open space. We don't have that number, that sheer
number that people like from the standpoint of retail. And I thank the
Good Lord that Nordstrom's went by that and are coming in. And I think
that one of the problems that we have on Huntington Drive, Mr. Mayor, that
we talked about earlier is the sheer demographics. We don't have
demographics that make things economically viable to some of our areas.
HARBICHT Not for retail, but most of our interest has been in the area of office,
and we've put in the hotels, which have been a godsend, and that's probably
the way that's going to go. And I think the fact that they've got this
freeze on in Pasadena is going to help us. When things pick up and people
get back into the development game, they can't go into Pasadena, where's
the next logical place? They're going to look at Arcadia, because we're
close to Pasadena, which is one of the reasons that our hotels are
successful. I mean, I think we're positioned, when things turn around,
to market this property successfully.
FASCHING Well, now we come right back to marketing strategy. That's what I think
we're mainly concerned with, is how to market our property in the most
strategic ways and aggressive ways, and what markets can we go to to make
known the availability of this property to corporate headquarters that may
want to relocate from West L.A. or downtown Los Angeles. . . .
LOJESKI Or from elsewhere in the United States, maybe they want to come to Southern
California. I think we've got some prime locations.
FASCHING Well, we do. We have some nice properties. And if we get one going, they
all could possibly.
LOJESKI There's still a little, I think, of the stigma, too, in the development
world. And I heard this directly from an individual by the name of Blaine
Fadder. Blaine has had an interest in developing Huntington Drive at the
intersection of Huntington and Myrtle and has done a phenomenal job over
there, with corporate headquarters and things like that. And the stigma
being, "I won't bring a project to Arcadia because it's just too tough to
work with the people over there." Now, whatever that means. I certainly
hope that's not the situation and that we are more of in the "Hey, let's
37
CIRAULO Boy, that would turn into a projects. . .Arcadia Downtown Projects.
FRIEDMANN Then they say, "How much do you want." We say, "Well, the Agency had an
offer for light industrial in such-and-such a year for this amount of
money," and they turn that down. And then a few years later there was a
guy who was interested who wanted to pay $25 a square foot, and the
developer had no developing experience, but it seemed like the Agency was
more receptive to $25 a square foot. So it's hard to. . .they try to get
this information from us, so it would be helpful to have some direction
in the marketing.
HARBICHT Well, what was the per-square-foot selling price of the South Side Project
going to be?
KINNAHAN It was going to average around nineteen and a half.
HARBICHT The Agency had gone ahead with that and were willing to do the deal, so
at least that gives you some sort of a ballpark thing. On the north side
we're probably talking about a little less, because it doesn't have the
Huntington frontage. I mean, assuming we get the kind of development that
we want.
LOJESKI One thing, of course, if we could all put a crystal ball on it and say,
you know, we're going, to have a light rail, something or other, coming
through the City. You're going to talk about a dramatic change, I think,
particularly (inaudible) sales tax revenue. You put a station down in the
downtown area, you know, you're going to see an industrial-zoned area
perhaps changed to a commercial area.
FASCHING I'd like to comment on that. At the present time there. . .as of, say,
months ago, this whole corridor situation is under study trying to get the
extension of Pasadena to Azusa rather than terminating in East Pasadena.
And so there's been a lot of work done on that. At the present time there
is developing a real possibility of extending the Pasadena line to as far
as Arcadia, which would mean a terminus at the First and Santa Clara
property. The ridership falls off tremendously once you get past Arcadia,
in terms of ridership. The Transportation Coalition, as well as the
Transportation Commission of the San Gabriel Valley Association of Cities,
along with Duarte and Monrovia, not including Irwindale and Azusa because
they're really not players. But, the theory being that if we can get it
to Irwindale there's a lot of property there that could be the end of the
line. My concept in the past of a terminus of the light rail would
encompass. . .I had visions of storage yards for light rail cars and a
roundhouse or something of that nature. I thought this would be the deal.
But actually a terminus, I find, is only no more than probably a station
with the exception of it needs much more parking. So you don't have a
large facility. . .you have a station but that's the.end of the line. Now
they go the other way. But because it is the end of the line you have
to. . .and in this instance it's almost 1,000-car parking area for the
terminus. Pasadena does not want the terminus in East Pasadena. They have
to build a parking structure that they don't want to build, and they would
like to see it out of East Pasadena. There was a press conference last
Thursday where they made an announcement by LACTC, and there were other
officials there in front of the station in Pasadena, and David and I were
ther. As to the acquisition of the right-of-way from Santa Fe, it's
completed now, so it's a go situation with the Pasadena line. In
discussion with some of those people there from Pasadena, they're anxious
to get that thing beyond Pasadena because they don't want it to stop there,
they have a lot of problems in acquiring this land and building this
parking structure. And so, it's being supported also to take it further
than Pasadena by Tri-cities, which is Burbank and Glendale, because it
would be beneficial to them if we get it extended out here also, isn't that
correct? ' So, anyway, there is a strong possibility, and also Santa Anita
is fighting very hard for this, to get it as far as Arcadia. At this
point, whereas a year ago I would say to get it here would be in the year
2004, I think we have a 50-50 chance of getting it here at the same time
they do the Pasadena line. Which means it could be here in 1997.
HARBICHT Well, what are we going to do about parking?
39
4"
work together on this thing, let's try to see this thing happen and come
together." Again, not to give the farm away.
HARBICHT Well, I tell you, there's two ways to look at that. One is to say we're
too tough, we're hard to work with and so we're putting some people off.
The other side of the coin is we have high standards, we adhere to them,
we don't give up on parking, we have design review for all commercial
areas, and that is why Arcadia is what Arcadia is. So, you know, it
depends on what side of the fence you're on. I don't know if I want to
relax our standards. I certainly would hope that we would have a
cooperative attitude and try to work with people as much as possible, but
at the same time I think that. . . . I guess I keep going back to, you know,
60 or 70 years ago you had El Monte and Arcadia, not much difference
between the two, same climate, same soil and everything, and there were
some governmental decisions that were made in the two places. And today
Arcadia is what Arcadia is, and El Monto• is what El Monte is. And it came
about because of standards that were set in the two communities. And I
think that it's important that we maintain certain standards. There's
always the tendency to say, "Gee, we really would like to market this piece
of property or get somebody in so maybe we ought to back off a little bit."
I think we ought to be real careful about that.
FASCHING I don't think. . .you weren't referring to standards. I don't think we'd
want to relax our standards.
LOJESKI Absolutely not.
HARBICHT But a lot of people that say we're hard to work with are saying we're hard
to work with for just that reason. Because there's a lot of communities
that will say, "Well, yeah, we require five parking spaces per thousand
but we could probably work it out for four."
FASCHING Well, we can see evidence of relaxing standards on parking, particularly.
You can't do that.
WOOLARD We did that with Gribble, actually, by joint uses and stuff there the
parking was modified. And on the Johnson property north of the water
tanks. They got modifications for signs so they were visible from the
' freeway.
HARBICHT Higher, yeah. I think those are reasonable. . .working with people. I think
there were some valid reasons for. . . .
FASCHING I don't think we want to reduce our standards. Did you have something to
say?
FRIEDMANN We have signs on the properties right now. . .the signs have been there for
a while and I still get some calls sometimes. And the first question, of
course, everybody asks is, "How much is it?" And staff doesn't have the
answer to that question. And then they ask, "Well, what do you want to
see on this property?" And so then we kind of go back to the direction
we had from the Council before, and that was, well, we most likely would
like to see 70 percent of office projects. And then they say, "Well, thank
you very much." You can't get loans for office buildings.
CIRAULO What kind of projects are they offering?
FRIEDMANN Well, they're not offering really anything that. . .they're offering like,
a church, there are churches that call, and batting cages. . . .
MARGETT No, we don't want that.
FRIEDMANN Housing, a lot of people want to put housing on that site, on the four
acres.
CIRAULO Residents?
FRIEDMANN Right. Apartments, condos, low-mod housing. Housing was one of the
biggest things that we had interest in.
38
CIRAULO Boy, that would turn into a projects. . .Arcadia Downtown Projects.
FRIEDMANN Then they say, "How much do you want." We say, "Well, the Agency had an
offer for light industrial in such-and-such a year for this amount of
money," and they turn that down. And then a few years later there was a
guy who was interested who wanted to pay $25 a square foot, and the
developer had no developing experience, but it seemed like the Agency was
more receptive to $25 a square foot. So it's hard to. . .they try to get
this information from us, so it would be helpful to have some direction
in the marketing.
HARBICHT Well, what was the per-square-foot selling price of the South Side Project
going to be?
KINNAHAN It was going to average around nineteen and a half.
HARBICHT The Agency had gone ahead with that and were willing to do the deal, so
at least that gives you some sort of a ballpark thing. On the north side
we're probably talking about a little less, because it doesn't have the
Huntington frontage. I mean, assuming we get the kind of development that
we want.
LOJESKI One thing, of course, if we could all put a crystal ball on it and say,
you know, we're going, to have a light rail, something or other, coming
through the City. You're going to talk about a dramatic change, I think,
particularly (inaudible) sales tax revenue. You put a station down in the
downtown area, you know, you're going to see an industrial-zoned area
perhaps changed to a commercial area.
FASCHING I'd like to comment on that. At the present time there. . .as of, say,
months ago, this whole corridor situation is under study trying to get the
extension of Pasadena to Azusa rather than terminating in East Pasadena.
And so there's been a lot of work done on that. At the present time there
is developing a real possibility of extending the Pasadena line to as far
as Arcadia, which would mean a terminus at the First and Santa Clara
property. The ridership falls off tremendously once you get past Arcadia,
in terms of ridership. The Transportation Coalition, as well as the
Transportation Commission of the San Gabriel Valley Association of Cities,
along with Duarte and Monrovia, not including Irwindale and Azusa because
they're really not players. But, the theory being that if we can get it
to Irwindale there's a lot of property there that could be the end of the
line. My concept in the past of a terminus of the light rail would
encompass. . .I had visions of storage yards for light rail cars and a
roundhouse or something of that nature. I thought this would be the deal.
But actually a terminus, I find, is only no more than probably a station
with the exception of it needs much more parking. So you don't have a
large facility. . .you have a station but that's the.end of the line. Now
they go the other way. But because it is the end of the line you have
to. . .and in this instance it's almost 1,000-car parking area for the
terminus. Pasadena does not want the terminus in East Pasadena. They have
to build a parking structure that they don't want to build, and they would
like to see it out of East Pasadena. There was a press conference last
Thursday where they made an announcement by LACTC, and there were other
officials there in front of the station in Pasadena, and David and I were
ther. As to the acquisition of the right-of-way from Santa Fe, it's
completed now, so it's a go situation with the Pasadena line. In
discussion with some of those people there from Pasadena, they're anxious
to get that thing beyond Pasadena because they don't want it to stop there,
they have a lot of problems in acquiring this land and building this
parking structure. And so, it's being supported also to take it further
than Pasadena by Tri-cities, which is Burbank and Glendale, because it
would be beneficial to them if we get it extended out here also, isn't that
correct? ' So, anyway, there is a strong possibility, and also Santa Anita
is fighting very hard for this, to get it as far as Arcadia. At this
point, whereas a year ago I would say to get it here would be in the year
2004, I think we have a 50-50 chance of getting it here at the same time
they do the Pasadena line. Which means it could be here in 1997.
HARBICHT Well, what are we going to do about parking?
39
•
I
FASCHING Uh-huh, now we come to that. O.K. , I've had discussions with Santa Anita,
and Santa Anita is offering a park-and-ride lot in their infield parking
lot. Which would mean that, if it got here and they furnished their lot
for a park-and-ride, someone would have to furnish a bus shuttle back and
forth between the terminus behind the lumber yard and Santa Anita. The
most ideal situation from an ease standpoint would be to acquire the lumber
yard and form our own parking area there to handle, say, 900 or 1,000 cars
on both sides of the railroad tracks. It would involve acquiring the
lumber yard. I told Cliff Goodrich he can buy the lumber yard and lease
it to us for $1 a year, and keep his parking lot, and he didn't really
scoff at that idea, but I don't say they would do it. But the reason I
bring it up is that this could be, with the advent of this coming. . .of
course, it's years away. . .it would certainly be a boost to our property
values in that area plus our redevelopment. And if somebody knew that that
was going to take place, and the possibility exists we could know that in
six months, people would then perhaps scramble for some of our
redevelopment property. And knowing that it would take them two years to
build, they would look down the road to having this light rail line coming
to Arcadia and terminating here. Eventually it would go beyond, but that
would probably be 10 or 12 years, in my opinion. But we have a real shot
at it now of getting it there if we can come up with the parking. Do you
want to fill them in some more? So, it's a possibility, and that would
be great for the City. But I wanted to. . .from a standpoint of the
desirability and making Arcadia an important place for people to come and
build. But I think you'd find some restaurants. . .it would be nice to own
the post office property if that happened.
LOJESKI You've got a couple of restaurant sites right now that are vacated. Cask
and Cleaver is gone, and I think you're about to have another one where
the old Sawmill Restaurant was. . .they're now closed for lunch.
FASCHING I think most of their business is at night anyway.
LOJESKI Yeah, but isn't that the initial sign of, you know, things aren't going
real well, and could the next action be that they close their doors
permanently, too?
HARBICHT I understand they're pretty busy at night. I know nothing about their
finances. Actually I hear from my kids that they're pretty busy.
LOJESKI I think the property that we have, particularly on the east side of
Huntington, I can't see that much going to retail. I think it's earmarked
because of its location to primarily office types of usages.
HARBICHT There's a possibility of a destination-type retail thing there. I think
we talked about the possibility of. . .someplace over here, the paint
place. . .not Dunn Edwards but something like that, where it draws its own
crowd, it doesn't need walk-by or drive-by traffic. There is that
possibility, but I agree it's probably going to be office or something,
but maybe. . . .
LOJESKI The other side of Second Avenue, even though it's a funny triangular shape,
that might go retail, certain types of retail. I'm talking. . .Kiewit East,
Kiewit West, I would think more of office-type situations. I'm talking
the westerly side of Second Avenue, from the triangle point of the railroad
tracks. . .I think very definitely could be. It could lend itself possibly
to a Bristol Farms-type of situation.
FASCHING Well, I'd like to move on because it's getting late and we have other
things to do here. I don't think we'll go any further with this tonight
other than ideas and suggestions on the part of the Council and staff as
to marketing the properties that we have, continuing on in the efforts that
we are, but I don't think we can go any further with it tonight. Is that
all right with everybody?
KINNAHAN Mr. Chairman? Just for clarity, would it be appropriate for staff to bring
back to you an outline of what we would like to advertise for each of the
two sites, the Northwest and Southwest corner?
FASCHING I think that would be great.
40
KINNAHAN Tell you where we would like to market it to. . .
FASCHING Mr. Margett suggested the Wall Street Journal.
KINNAHAN The Wall Street Journal and the various. . . .
FASCHING And the news that we have not been using.
KINNAHAN We would go to those, it is proposed to do that.
MARGETT The L. A. Times isn't too bad either.
KINNAHAN We've gone to the L. A. Times. We've got our own vending list. We can
go to the L. A. Business Journal, we can go to California Center magazines
that feature retail uses, office uses, we mentioned that. We can bring
a package to you that shows where we want to go, when we can phase it, vary
the ad size. . .you know, one week it's this big, wait a couple of weeks and
it's this big. And it's on this page this week, and this page. . .it's on
Sundays one day, it's on Fridays one day, to phase it out over time. We'd
also, riding along with Mr. Harbicht's suggestion, we'd maybe offer
a. . .make it an open listing, broker open listing, which means courtesy to
all brokers and pay, I would suggest, 4 percent. Normally it's a 3 percent
open listing; make it 4 to really invite people in.
MARGETT Well, you know, Pete,. I tell you, I think that, if you don't mind me
disagreeing with that, I think that if you find a broker that you think
can market and will spend the money marketing--I mean, like a Coldwell
Banker or like a, whoever, out there--I think that you ought to enter into
a marriage with them and say, "Hey, listen. . . ." and go ahead and get the
presentations from them, what they're going to do, and go ahead and let
them do it. Because if you've got an open listing out there and anybody
can sell it and you're going to pay the commission, I don't know whether
brokers are going to be enamored with that type of an approach to things.
That's my opinion. I think that to find a good Grubb Ellis or a Coldwell
Banker, whoever can present a good program, I think they're in touch with
the developers, I think they know the field for feasibility with regards
to properties. I think if they've done it before they know the big
developers, and get in bed with them and go ahead and cut a deal with them.
It would be my opinion, as opposed to just saying you're going to pay a
commission to anybody that wants to sell it. They're protected. And
they're willing to go ahead and spend the money, and they have to spend
the money if they come up with that type of a deal for Council or for the
Agency.
KINNAHAN If you'd like that, we can go to an exclusive listing and we can do that.
We can advertise with the majors, have them submit proposals to the Agency
indicating what they would do. The Agency can select one, we can give them
an exclusive, and they can proceed with the marketing effort.
MARGETT That is their forte. That is what they do best. That is their expertise.
And that would be the way that. . .have you done it before?
KINNAHAN No, we have not. We've done. . . .
MARGETT We've done everything else.
FASCHING It's an exclusive listing, then that's a shared commission with anybody
else that sells it. And who would be the one that we would consider as
to be the best. . .how do we feel about exclusive listing? You want to
bring it back and we're going to consider it?
KINNAHAN Well, it's up to the Agency, but my thought would be that we would prepare
an RFP, go out to the Grubb and Ellises, the Cush and Wakefields, the
Coldwell Bankers, and all the others that do it in this area, indicate
we're willing to do this for these two properties.
FASCHING What do you mean by this area?
KINNAHAN That deal, that market in the San Gabriel Valley and in Arcadia. I don't
want to pick up somebody that markets, you know, in San Diego or. . . .
41
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FASCHING What about Coldwell Banker that markets everywhere?
KINNAHAN Oh yes, of course.
FASCHING Wouldn't they be the logical choice? Aren't they the biggest in commercial
real estate?
KINNAHAN Well, Grubb and Ellis is very active in this area, Cush and Wakefield is
very. . .Hayes and Company is very active in this area.
FASCHING You mean bringing people into this area?
KINNAHAN Yes. They're very actively marketing and brokering properties in this
area. We go to maybe four or five of those larger firms with a proposal.
They submit it to the Agency, we review it, bring it to you. You would
listen and pick one. Hopefully, we'd negotiate a better commission rate.
HARBICHT Are they going to be willing to do it on 4 percent?
KINNAHAN No. If you're going exclusive it would be higher. I suspect they would
say no, it's going to be six or seven.
MARGETT I don't know whether that commission makes that much difference. I've got
to tell you, if you get somebody in there, the 2 percent more on a couple
of million dollars, I'd rather see the ground up, the building up and the
taxes coming in as opposed to waiting there because you choked some real
estate commission.
HARBICHT I think another step that may be a step before we actually do this is I
think maybe we should request from Pete a little report that shows his
understanding of what the Council is willing to accept there and what the
Council is not willing to accept there. Because that understanding came
from a previous City Council, and I think that this City Council should
review it because maybe we collectively have a different idea of what we're
willing to accept. Because we've specifically rejected a lot of -pings,
and we've let people know that we're not taking fast food and some things
like that. I think it would be worthwhile to have just a simple little
thing. . .your understanding of it so then the Council can look at it and
we can each of us express our opinion as to whether we want to move
anything to a different column.
WOOLARD (Inaudible) of that marketing package, I think, because they're going to
describe the. . . .
HARBICHT O.K. So you're going to bring that to us before you go out for proposals?
KINNAHAN Absolutely. We will bring it to you next meeting and we'll give you what
the uses and densities and sizes would be.
HARBICHT I'm not suggesting we're necessarily going to change it. It's not a bad
idea to review it from time to time.
LOJESKI Pete, do you think you can talk to your colleagues, your (inaudible)
colleagues (inaudible) where possibly (inaudible) maybe going there or they
can accommodate them. You know, they send customers to us and. . . .
KINNAHAN We have a very good relationship with Monrovia. They send stuff to us,
I send stuff to them. If it's a little too big, or doesn't fit our desire,
I'll refer them to Wayne Cox.
4. BDS. AND O.K. , we're going to move on. Next item is the appointments to Boards and
COMSN. APPTS. - Commissions. The first will be the Arcadia Beautiful Commission. Roland
MAYOR FASCHING Kelly and Homer Paulson are eligible to be reappointed.
HARBICHT I think we should reappoint both of them.
FASCHING Do you want to make a motion?
HARBICHT So moved.
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MARGETT Second.
FASCHING Any objections? O.K. , Mr. Kelly and Mr. Paulson will be reappointed. We
have one opening on the Library Board.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I would like to have the Council consider Mr. Don Swenson. Mr.
Don Swenson is an avid reader, he is very interested in the community,
knows books backwards and forwards, and I think would be very instrumental
in probably working with a new architect with regards to the expansion of
the Library. And I think that that would be a good choice.
LOJESKI Do you know him, Bob?
MARGETT Yeah.
HARBICHT I had his name written down, too. I don't know the man. . . .
FASCHING Do I have a motion?
LOJESKI I had his name, and I had Bill Rider. I don't know Bill Rider at all.
MARGETT He's fine, too. I'll move for Don Swenson.
•
HARBICHT Second.
FASCHING Any objections? So ordered. Don Swenson will be appointed to the Library
Board. Parking Place Commission. We have Jim Kuhn eligible to be
reappointed, and also Bill Wong. Do I have a motion on those two?
LOJESKI So moved.
CIRAULO Second.
FASCHING Motion by Dennis Lojeski, seconded by Councilman Ciraulo to appoint Jim
Kuhn and Bill wong to an additional term on the Parking Place Commission.
LOJESKI I would like consideration for one of the vacancies to Harvey Hyde, who's
an owner of the 25-75 North Santa Anita property, the medical buildings,
who pay into the District. And, obviously, he's eligible. I think we've
got some other names that have been submitted where they don't realize they
actually have to have a conflict of other big property owner or tenants
or anything like that.
MARGETT He's good.
FASCHING Do I have a motion on Harvey Hyde then?
MARGETT I want to second the motion. Is that a motion, Dennis?
LOJESKI Yes.
FASCHING Motion by Councilman Lojeski, seconded by Councilman Harbicht to appoint
Harvey Hyde to the Parking Place District Commission. Any objections?
So moved. We have one additional Parking Place Commission vacancy. I
would like to nominate Dave Freeman.
MARGETT Second the motion.
FASCHING Mayor Fasching nominates Dave Freeman, seconded by Councilman Margett for
Dave Freeman to the Parking Place Commission. Personnel Board. We have
George Fuson who is eligible for reappointment.
LOJESKI So moved.
CIRAULO Second.
FASCHING Moved by Councilman Lojeski, seconded by Councilman Ciraulo to reappoint
George Fuson to the Personnel Board. We have one vacancy.
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CIRAULO You know, we're losing Dick Erhardt, and Dick had a real strong background
in EEO stuff. And I think it's important that the Personnel Board has
another person with a similar background. And I like what I see in Don
Bastria.
MARGETT Who's he with?
LOJESKI I didn't even see that name.
HARBICHT I've got Bartrip down here.
CIRAULO Is it Bartrip? I thought it was Bastria.
MARGETT No, I have Bartrip, too.
CIRAULO Donald Bartria, it looks like to me, on.Arcadia Avenue.
MARGETT I don't know him.
CIRAULO Retired V.P. , Human Resources, Aerojet Electronics in Azusa, 21 years,
(inaudible) with the EEOC.
MARGETT I think we should have somebody with EEOC. . . .
CIRAULO Yeah. I think not all the positions on that.
HARBICHT Is he one of the later ones, Joe?
CIRAULO Either he or Robert Fine. Either one of those have- a background in EEOC,
and I think we should have somebody replacing Erhardt with that background.
It's not necessary for everybody on the Personnel Board to have a
background in that, but at least one expertise should be there.
MARGETT Who would you recommend then?
CIRAULO Does anybody know. . .between Robert Fine and Bartria?
MARGETT I know neither. Bartrip?
FASCHING Do we have any other recommendations?
HARBICHT I had Art Hershey written down. I have this Bartrip written down. In
fact, I have about five of them, I thought we had a wealth of. . . .
CIRAULO Donald Bartrip or Robert Fine. Both have extensive backgrounds in human
resources and EEO.
FASCHING Do you want to make a motion?
HARBICHT I'd go for Bartrip, Joe.
CIRAULO O.K. I move Bartrip.
HARBICHT Second.
FASCHING Motion by Councilman Ciraulo, seconded by Councilman Harbicht to nominate
Donald Bartrip to the Personnel Board. Any objections? So ordered.
HARBICHT Move approval of Daggett for reappointment.
CIRAULO Second.
LOJESKI Second, third.
FASCHING Move approval of Bob Daggett to be reappointed to the Planning Commission
by unanimous vote. Sister City Commission. John Tarazi is eligible to
be reappointed.
LOJESKI He says he does not wish to be reappointed. So you've got two vacancies.
44
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HARBICHT Too bad.
CIRAULO Yeah, it is too bad.
MARGETT Yeah, that is too bad.
LOJESKI What about Dick Cordano? He went with the band a couple of times to
Australia.
MARGETT I have Beth Wells. And I tell you, she's knocking herself out for the
community.
LOJESKI What about Lois Patnou?
MARGETT She's very good. I would go Lois Patnou also.
HARBICHT I'd like to see Patnou and Cordano myself.
FASCHING Who do you want?
LOJESKI Those are the two names I had down for the commission.
FASCHING Who do you want, Bob?
MARGETT I thought Beth Wells and Patnou.
FASCHING Wait a minute, here, let's see. Who did you have?
HARBICHT I had Patnou. . . .
CIRAULO Patnou is good.
FASCHING And who was the other?
MARGETT Beth Wells.
HARBICHT Cordano.
FASCHING I would like to see Lois Patnou and Beth Wells.
MARGETT Have we got a consensus?
CIRAULO Yeah, I would go with that.
FASCHING With what?
CIRAULO Beth Wells and Patnou.
FASCHING O.K. , make the motion.
CIRAULO I will move that we have Beth Wells and Lois Patnou on the Sister City
Commission.
MARGETT Second the motion.
FASCHING Do you want a roll call on this? Any objections? So ordered.
HARBICHT Move to reappoint Pat Loechner and Janie Steckenrider.
CIRAULO Second.
FASCHING Move to appoint by Councilman Harbicht, seconded by, was it you, Bob?
MARGETT Well, I will. I didn't, but I will.
HARBICHT It was Joe, wasn't it?
CIRAULO Yeah.
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CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
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to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
2
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ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
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HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
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E D I T E D
TRANS C R I P T
(Insofar as decipherable)
RELATING TO
ARCADIA CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION
JUNE 24, 1992
Ai a
, 14. 1
, 2)5 /1
-p.
CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
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to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
2
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Y�
ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
3
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
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FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
to it, however, another one which is potentially unknown as far as its
impact. They just simply say that they might want to require that
agencies would receive in tax increment only what they've legally
contracted for. In our case, we have bonded indebtedness, that's $330,000
a year. Well, the rest of it is often pay as you go. We pay as we go.
They would sort of take that away. They would simply give us in tax
increment $330,000 because that's contractually established.
•
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FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
4
LOJESKI Hasn't Kent looked at this. . . .
FASCHING You're bringing up a lot of other questions. You say you want to be
guaranteed the extra square feet will be good for another 25 years, and
all those things.
LOJESKI I didn't use the word guarantee. I want to be assured that what we're
talking is going to be usable for the next period of time.
ROSS It's 10 years that I said would be the absolute guarantee that would. . .the
capacity would be guaranteed for that time. Beyond that it's difficult
to tell, the changes that could occur. Certainly, when we do this it would
be a 25-year building. But it could be at capacity in 10 years.
CIRAULO And what might extend that, too, is. . .I understand it's just preliminary
at this point, but I understand the School District is having some
preliminary discussions about some way to access the Library by way of
computer and keep most of the students at the school.
ROSS They already do. They do access the Library by computer, but actually what
that does is tell them what we have so they know that we have it before
they come over. And that's primarily the way it's used now. They
originally wanted a retrieval system, and then they couldn't afford the
people to come and retrieve the items at the time because of their budget.
But they still have access to our collection by computer.
CIRAULO They have that now?
ROSS They have that now.
HARBICHT Well, some comments that I have on this is, one, the question of where the
money is going to come from. I think this is why we have to prioritize
our capital improvements. We have the Capital Improvements Budget, we have
money in it, we have receipts going into it from the Track and the other
monies that we're putting into that. So if we decide that we're going to
build this Library, or build this addition to the Library, the money is
available in the Capital Improvements Fund. That's what the Capital
Improvements Fund is for. And if that takes up most of the money there,
then any other capital improvements that we want, such as an auditorium,
whatever, are just going to have to be put off two or three years until
we build it up to the point where we can do it. That's the way we've
always done it in this City. And I guess I'll express the opinion that,
in my mind, this is the number one priority. And so I would be in favor
of using the Capital Improvements Funds for doing the Library. I guess
the question of how long the Library is going. . .how long this would
last. . .Kent, I'm going to argue with you a little bit on this. I don't
know why it would only last for 10 years. I don't think we foresee any
significant population growth here in Arcadia. As a matter of fact, the
consultants' report that we had visualized almost no growth.
ROSS Well, I didn't say it wouldn't last more than 10 years; I said I couldn't
guarantee it. I could absolutely guarantee that it would certainly have
sufficient space for growth up to 10 years. After that, there are a lot
of things we don't know, as I explained, I think, the last time. . .particul-
ar, say, reference volumes that were only two volumes at one time are now
10, 15, and they've grown by 10 times. But we're still required to have
those. So the same thing, to serve the community in this much space 10
years ago now takes several shelves.
HARBICHT I understand that. I guess I'm thinking in terms of, you know, one of the
things that would have the greatest influence on the size of the Library
needed is the number of people using it. I think the number of people
using it is pretty closely tied to population growth. And so I don't
visualize a huge increase in the number of people using it. In regard to
the reference volumes, that's true and I know that the amount of
information in the world is constantly expanding and we seem to be putting
more of it on our shelves. But it could be, and I think it's very likely,
that 10 or 15 years from now an awful lot of that is going to be on laser
disk and you're not even going to have those volumes. . .you're just going
to pop a laser disk in and read what you want, and print out the part you
7
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want. Which means that actually there would be a shrinking demand for
space there. But I guess in my mind. . .Dennis asked the question, how long
would this be good for. I'm fairly convinced that this kind of an
expansion is going to be good for more than 10 years, and I don't think
20 years. . .my guess, and I'm not a library expert, but my guess just based
on what I see in trends is I think we're pretty safe in saying that if we
were to do this it's going to serve the needs of Arcadia for 20 years.
CIRAULO Well, that's a good question to ask. How much extra space do we need to
last us for 25 years?
HARBICHT Because if it was only going to be 10 years, I'd be pretty reluctant to
do this. If I thought 10 years from now we were going to have to tear
everything down and build a new Library, I might say maybe we ought to just
struggle along with what we've got for three more and save up the money
and then build a brand new Library. So, that's my feeling.
FASCHING I feel that it's going to last us for 20, 25 years. The one we have was '
conceivably out of space 20 years ago, and we've been using that for 20
years since then.
•
[End of Tape 1 - Side 1, beginning of Tape 1 - side 2]
HARBICHT . . .in terms of making a decision as to whether or not we should do this
is how much it's going to cost. Now, we have a cost estimate here that
I think Bob Daggett gave us, but we also have the cost estimate for the
new building, which the consultants gave us a year or so ago, two years
ago maybe, and some of their unit costs are particularly high. And so I
don't know if they're high estimators or Bob's a low estimator, or if the
truth lies somewhere in the middle, but we're talking significant
difference in estimated costs.
ROSS I spoke to Bob Daggett on that issue and we discussed it at length. And
using the same criteria that he used for this plan, it was his feeling that
that same building, even nearly 60,000 square feet, would be under
$8,000,000. He gave a number of reasons why he felt that buildings were
overbuilt or built way above cost. And I think he may have mentioned some
of them in the last study session. But that was his feeling, and that's
the way he's based this cost. So if you were comparing this to a new
building, you'd have to use the same criteria, and based on that criteria,
his criteria would be about $7,500,000 for the facility recommended
originally by. . . .
HARBICHT Well, the shell or the whole ball of wax?
ROSS The whole thing, he said. That's what I kept asking him, I said does this
include fees and everything? He said yes.
HARBICHT And interior?
CIRAULO As opposed to this recommended idea, which is about $2.3 million, right?
ROSS Well, this whole thing, though, this whole thing is $3.5 million.
CIRAULO Three point five.
WOOLARD I think what Kent was comparing was that the plan for a new Library was
like, $16,000,000. The same numbers applied from Daggett's figures, the
new Library would only cost $7,500,000 to $8,000,000. So there's quite
a large difference. But a lot of it may have to do with materials and
other details that Bob has a different image of than the other people who
may have been, let's say, going with a Cadillac. I really don't think
you're going to have a handle on it until you actually have an architect
getting down to the more. . . .
CIRAULO Well, it seems to me that t?-at's what we need to do next, is to have an
architect look at. . .we all seem to like this concept. . .have an architect
put pencil to paper and come back to us.
8
FASCHING Well, we have to advertise for an architect.
CIRAULO Well, go out to bid, I guess.
WOOLARD Daggett can still help us a lot if he wants to volunteer.
FASCHING Well, I think he'd be perfectly willing to volunteer to help out on this
thing even though he can't bid on it. But I think he's involved himself
on a volunteer basis with us, which I think is great, and I would certainly
like to keep him involved, to what extent the staff might want to, to
advise us. I personally feel that we probably get ripped off every time
we build something in this City.
MARGETT Well, that's true, Mr. Mayor, and I think that's where Bob Daggett's coming
from. I'm sure that there are architects out there that will build you
a library for $20,000,000. There's no problem doing it. Or ten or eight.
And I think that that's the key in the whole thing. I think what Bob
Daggett wants to be able to do is say, hey, we have $3,000,000, or whatever
we're coming up with, five, or what your budget is, make that thing work
at $5,000,000 and make it look like we're going to spend $20,000,000. And
I think that's what we should be doing.
FASCHING Well, I think we should be taking advantage of this type of expertise and
help that can be furnished to us by one of our commissioners, that's what
they're there for. They're residents that are interested in the City and
the future of it, too. That's why I propose that we settle on this
concept, we're happy with it. We have a budget, we know where the money
is coming from. We tell Daggett and the Librarian this is what we want
to do, and let Daggett put the finishing touches on it so we know, and let
him kind of help us as we want him to in the process of. . . .
MARGETT I think you'll watch your nickels and dimes and have him. . . .
FASCHING . . .soliciting architects and soliciting, when the time comes, to
contractors and everything else.
LOJESKI What's the current status, Jim, of our fund that we could take it away
from.
DALE I just happened to look at that, and I would think that what you're talking
about is probably the Capital Outlay Fund, which has got about $2,032,000,
and the Facility Construction Fund, which has another $3,327,000. So those
two funds are really specifically for. . .
LOJESKI A combination of those things.
HARBICHT A little over $5,000,000.
DALE A little over $5,000,000, right.
FASCHING Well, I would like to do this as best we can so that we could ve some
money left over for some other things that we might want to dL _own the
road.
HARBICHT What did the Community Center cost us, Bill, on a per-square-foot basis,
do you recall?
WOOLARD A little over $200. But because of the materials and detail work that was
a lot higher.
HARBICHT That included the interior, detail, the wood. . . .
WOOLARD Yeah.
HARBICHT And that was a little over $200. And the consultants that we had on the
Library a year or two ago, they're. . . .
ROSS They were over $250, I think. . .$270, I think. You di"ide it by the square
footage, divide $16,000,000 by 59,000.
9
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
FASCHING And then tell him we'd appreciate it, as commissioner, if he'd kind of give
us some advice as we go along on this with some of these outside bids and
everything.
CIRAULO Sounds like a way to go.
HARBICHT Well, I'd like to be more specific than that. I think if we agree on the
concept that we should get going on advertising for proposals for
architect.
LOJESKI I think where Bob can help out is working with the staff in formulating
the RFP.
FASCHING Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
LOJESKI I don't want to see any other extra steps involved. . .I think just go right
into it.
FASCHING Well, that's exactly what I was talking about, using him as a consultant
and working with staff on the deal.
MILLER You want him to be a voluntary consultant on our process?
FASCHING Sure. He's willing to do that. Yeah. So then we'll do that? .
HARBICHT I think that's what we're all saying in different ways.
FASCHING Yeah, right. O.K. Do we have agreement, then, on that?
MARGETT Yeah. What do you need, a motion, Mr. Mayor, or what do you want to do?
CIRAULO I will so move, Mr. Mayor.
MARGETT Second the motion, Mr. Mayor.
MILLER O.K. , that is to go out for RFP's with Mr. Daggett as a volunteering
consultant?
(Several or all Councilmembers answered affirmative.)
HARBICHT Can I just ask a couple of questions for clarification here if, in fact,
this is included in the motion or should be. I think that what we're
approving here is a concept for additions. It seems like we ought to also
be including some cost level that we want to have put into that RFP, it
would be a part of the thing.
CIRAULO Well, we won't know until an architect comes back at us, right?
HARBICHT I think- that, I guess. . . .
CIRAULO You want to give him a ceiling up front, and say not to exceed. . . .
HARBICHT I mean, I think we ought to make some estimate of how much are we willing
to spend? I mean, what if he comes back and he does all these drawings
and everything and we find out it's going to cost us $6,000,000 to add this
stuff, and we say why didn't we build a new building.
MARGETT Well, isn't that part of the process that architects would present to us,
what they think they can do the drawing for?
HARBICHT Dennis was saying, and I agree with him, that we have to say, how much is
this worth to us? At least some general statement of how much we're
willing to spend to do these additions. I mean, I guess I'm saying I would
like to have the architects work within a parameter of approximately three
and a half million dollars, the whole thing. . . .
CIRAULO Three and a half to four million.
Give them a ballpark figure.
11
h
LOJESKI Because if you don't, Bob, what happens? An architect. . .if you give an
architect carte blanche, O.K. , an architect who, let's say, has never done
any work in Arcadia with any public buildings. Doesn't know the City,
starts going through the City and says, hey, look at this town, now this
town's got a lot of dough. Look, they just built this Community Center.
They could have saved and used a veneer on the outside of this build-
ing. . .they used a solid block construction.
HARBICHT Well, they'll start looking at some of the houses.
LOJESKI Yeah. Go inside and you see this fancy paneling. So an architect could
say, well, I'll design it and I'll make it look really great and push my
project. And, like Bob says, you're up to a six, seven, eight million
dollar addition.
HARBICHT I guess I would like to see us state that we would, what I'll suggest is,
that we say we're looking at this kind of a concept with satellite
buildings. We're looking to have this thing in the three to three and a
half million dollar range, including tax and license, the whole thing.
MARGETT The furnishings also?
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING Well, I think that one thing here is that from an architectural standpoint
he's not going to bid the interior and all new fixtures.
HARBICHT No, no. All of the stuff that he has--the electrical, the ceilings, doing
the rotunda, a new roof, all of that stuff--we're looking at the whole
package in the range of three to three and a half million.
FASCHING Well, this is why I'd like to have Daggett redefine his figures.
WOOLARD What we can do is, call for RFP's and include some cost parameters and
bring this whole package back to Council.
HARBICHT And I think we need to tell you what we're looking at.
FASCHING Well, let's have Daggett develop the parameters or the figures first. . . .
HARBICHT He already has.
LOJESKI He already has, what more is he going to give us?
FASCHING Well, I'd like to make sure that he agrees on this.
HARBICHT I guess what I'm saying is that if. . .
FASCHING Who's going to bid on the interiors and all the fixtures?
HARBICHT . . .he gets down to sharpening his pencil and says, gee, this really comes
up to $4,000,000, maybe his recommendation would be to not include Building
A or make some modifications.
ROSS One of the things, there's a contingency factor in there, and when you're
working with the interior of the existing building, there are some
unpredictable costs in there, and he actually did go up to $4,000,000 in
my discussions with him. . .anywhere from $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
CIRAULO My guess would be the range would be $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
ROSS That's what he said.
FASCHING Well. . .because of contingencies?
ROSS Yes. See, we wouldn't know for sure until you have a structural engineer
go in there and look since you have to decide what you're going to do with
the building, upgrades and that sort of thing, because it will have to be
seismically upgraded.
12
k,.
City, a business permit, to do these productions. He said he just can't
afford to be putting that out also.
MARGETT How much is that, George?
FASCHING I think it's $200, as I recall.
HARBICHT How much?
FASCHING Two hundred dollars, I think. So he'd like us to waive the City permit
fee since these are sort of a community-oriented type of thing. Although
he does charge $8. And, what, we're giving him two performances. What
is our rent on the other performance?
ROSS It normally is $25 an hour, but a two-hour minimum. So he'd be paying at
least $50.
FASCHING It sounds like a worthwhile program, and it's a cultural thing for the
children in the Library and adults, an activity at the Library. And I told
him I would take this to the Council and see if we would waive the business
license permit.
MARGETT O.K. , for one performance he's going to get approximately $900, is that
right, if he sells it out?
FASCHING Ninety-nine people, yeah.
MARGETT Nine hundred dollars, a little bit less than $900, is that right?
FASCHING Yeah.
MARGETT O.K. What does he have to pay for the. . .does he have to pay something for
the rights to be able to put on the show?
FASCHING I don't know how he reimburses his actors or actresses.
ROSS They're working for nothing.
MARGETT They're working for nothing?
ROSS He may have to pay for some scenery fees, have somebody build some scenery,
that may be a cost.
CIRAULO Didn't they do this over at Holly Avenue School one time years ago?
ROSS I don't recall. I know Sierra Madre has. . .he said he was involved with
that.
FASCHING He started that, the Sierra Madre Little Theater.
HARBICHT Let me ask you a question. Let's say that some piano teacher is going to
have a recital for her 10 students and so she wants to use our room and
ask the students' parents to come and hear the recital and. . .has that
happened, that kind of thing? Is it used for that kind of thing?
ROSS For recitals? Yeah, we use it for piano recitals all the time.
HARBICHT What do we charge?
ROSS In that same range, $25 an hour, $50 minimum. . .2 hours minimum,
HARBICHT What's our justification for not charging this guy? He's charging
admission.
ROSS Well, any time you waive charges it's based on the decision of the Library
Board. I mean, it's stated in the policy that this can be waived at their
discretion.
MILLER Has the Library Board ruled on this?
16
L_.
WOOLARD Well, in this market it's slim.
CIRAULO I guess you don't know. But it's not a bad idea to make them aware of it,
I think, again.
WOOLARD Can this be used outside of the redevelopment area?
KINNAHAN There's two issues. The first one, the program didn't work before because
it was--Donna, correct me--it was not very much of an incentive program.
As the program went along, they began to offer more and more incentives
and give more and more of a rebate, and towards the end of the program it
got very successful. If I recollect, there was a waiting list when the
program finally went out of business. . .there was about two or three that
were in line.
ASSISTANT There were a few. Actually, we offered the same program all along, but
PLANNING DIR. what happened was I think everybody was just very leery of it, they didn't
DONNA BUTLER really understand the project. When we had the earthquake, that was the
greatest incentive that we probably had, the Whittier earthquake. Because
that's when the first, which was the Steerburger, took advantage of the
funding. And from that point, we went down. . .everybody kind of started
asking questions. We had our consultants go individually to each of the
businesses. But that really was the first push. We had a few people
before that that did some minor painting, a couple of signs, but up until
that time it was strictly two or three businesses.
WOOLARD In that downtown area someone at that time did go store to store to inform
the people of the program, gave handouts, and they tried to provide all
the information they could on the thing.
CIRAULO That was within the redevelopment area, though.
WOOLARD It coincidentally was within that area. Outside the redevelopment area
you couldn't use the CDBG funds.
FASCHING What's the possibility of. . .there must be a firm or people that specialize
in modernizing and updated community business districts where they give
you a concept and a plan and street, and buildings, and overall design,
and this type of thing. I'd like to think that we could have somebody that
would come in and look at our City and say this is what you should do here,
and you should do here, and that, and give us an idea of a concept and a
design to follow in all aspects. . . .
HARBICHT We've already done it.
WOOLARD That's what we had in the downtown. . . .
FASCHING Well, where is it? What did they say? Everybody was going to follow a
general plan?
HARBICHT No. As a result of their plan, we established design criteria downtown,
we've got a list of colors, we have a list of materials that you have to
use if you're redesigning anything in the downtown area. We put in new
street furniture, we put in new crosswalks, we put in all new street trees
down there. All of that was a result of those recommendations. And so
we have a design criteria for downtown.
FASCHING Where did we drop the ball?
HARBICHT What do you mean?
FASCHING Well, why does it look like it does?
HARBICHT These are privately owned businesses. You can't force them to. . . .
FASCHING Well, that's what I mean. This is why we're here, is to. . .how do we get
those businesses and what steps can we take to get this job done? And what
will it take?
WOOLARD The next step we had was offering free money to. . . .
19
CIRAULO Well, what I would like to see, is there any way we can expand it beyond
the formal redevelopment area, say on First Avenue, for instance?
KINNAHAN I reviewed that with the Agency attorney, and basically, when you go
outside a project area boundary, you have to show a direct relationship
and benefit to the project area. So if you were to go across the street
from the project area, you can probably say, well, that's probably a
benefit. You start getting a block away. . . .
CIRAULO Are there any (inaudible) that we could use to help those people. . .any
programs available?
KINNAHAN Not through the Redevelopment Agency. As I understand, not the Block Grant
because. . . .
CIRAULO In any other way?
•
KINNAHAN And the only other ones would be through private financing, through a
bank. . .there is. . .that's about it.
HARBICHT There is another one. We could take City funds and make them available.
KINNAHAN Well, I'm not sure. It might get (inaudible) .
LOJESKI When you look in that book there are some outstanding examples of junk and
something that really looks nicer.
HARBICHT There's been tremendous improvements.
LOJESKI Tremendous improvements. . .but they're all downtown.
HARBICHT O.K. , well I was just responding to your suggestion that we hire a
consultant. We've already done it.
FASCHING But he didn't tell us, though, of maybe one concept to follow in the
design. In other words, let's take those little stores on Huntington
between Santa Anita. and First. They all look different. Is there
something we could do to make that whole front of those stores all kind
of tie in to one design and still maintain their individuality, but we have
something that really looks like something for the whole length of the
block instead of somebody here with one thing and somebody with something
else. It gives a whole feeling to the block, is what I'm thinking of, and
then continue it on down to Second Avenue.
MARGETT You mean a continuity of a theme, George?
FASCHING Continuity of a theme.
HARBICHT Sort of a mini-mall look.
FASCHING Jump in here.
MARGETT Well, I'm listening here. You have the microphone.
FASCHING But that's the thing I'm talking about. I think these individuals, where
this guy puts on his style awning and the other guy puts on his style
awning, and we don't have any continuity down that street. I think that
Monrovia accomplished that. . .
HARBICHT They don't have continuity. . . .
FASCHING No, wait a minute. . .through the use of trees and street design they gave
it a concept.
MARGETT Well, I think they did, Bob, down Myrtle Avenue, I think they did give it
a concept, a turn-of-the-century type of look.
FASCHING But they did it with trees and street, Bob. They didn't do it with
storefronts. Well, storefronts are nice, but they don't all look alike.
20
HARBICHT But we did it with trees, too. And crosswalks, the monument signs, the
center divider.
WOOLARD If it wasn't for racetrack traffic you could do a lot more down there, but
we need two lanes in each direction to. . . .
FASCHING Well, there's got to be something we have to do, because it can't stay
looking like that for the next 10 years. 'It looks horrible. Baldwin
Avenue, down there, that big old sign sticking out there in front of
Hinshaw's with all those places on it, I don't think that has much
attractiveness or warmth to that street. I think the best looking street
we've got is Live Oak, with the way it's laid out with the center divider
and the trees and the grass and everything, to a degree. But my feeling
is we've got to :ome up with a feeling for our City that it all ties
together. And we have some trees down on there. . .I was up on Foothill
today, we've got some big trees that need trimming, we've got some little
trees that don't need trimming, and it just doesn't look very representa-
tive of the way our City should look. Maybe we need more tree trimmers.
Donna, you wanted to say something?
BUTLER Well, the only thing I was going to point out was, in talking about. . .Will-
dan was the company that was hired to take a look at the whole entire area.
And as Bob mentioned, one of the things that they were trying to do to tie
the area together. . .because one of the biggest problems down there is you
don't have similarity of design in buildings. They talked about
things. . .they felt that trying to create a theme in the downtown area just
wasn't really a theme you could tie all the buildings into. So what they
tried to do was, at that point in time, they tried to do it by the use of
colors, tying it in with the different types of paving materials, street
furniture, and so forth. Because that was the biggest problem that they
had. And it was presented to the Council, and the Council at the time went
along with the fact that it's very difficult to create a theme that doesn't
exist. I mean, you've got buildings that are so different in design and
style, so that was the use of the colors, the types of materials in the
downtown area, and that's why we adopted the downtown design overlay, which
set forth the specific colors, signing. . .which we're still trying to
encourage the replacement of older signs, but it still hasn't taken place
everywhere. But that was a major discussion. We've got a plan, which is
approximately yea big, that was done at the time they discussed all the
different treatments, what could be done and what couldn't be done and so
forth. We used,Block Grant funds to finance that study, and it's just that
I think it's important. . .you know, we did try to come up with something,
but I think it was felt that this was the best way to tie everything
together was through the use of landscaping. . . .
FASCHING Then I guess maybe what we're looking at here is how do we complete the
program that we came up with.
CIRAULO Well, I'd like to ask, if we can, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to ask Howard, do
you have any feel for how the merchants might feel, Howard, about this
idea, or have you heard anything?
HOWARD LAREW I've mainly heard, in South Arcadia, Joe, that people are not real excited
(PRES. , CH. OF with the storefronts down there. Downtown along Huntington Drive has
COMMERCE) certainly improved over the years, and I have no feel for individual
businesses as to whether they would be willing to put up their own funds
to do it. I think with the economy the way it is, they're all looking for
help. And I think they'd probably be receptive to some kind of a program.
CIRAULO I know I hear occasionally from the people on First Avenue south of
Huntington. But the problem, Pete tells us, that's not even the original
redevelopment area. So that's a whole different kind of an idea. . .a whole
different ballgame.
HARBICHT I think that, with regard to downtown. . .I'm talking about Huntington Drive
when I say downtown. . .a number of businesses took advantages of the Block
Grant program that we have. A number of others have gone ahead and
upgraded their storefronts. We still have some that are left to do. And
I don't think that a theme is feasible. I don't think it's feasible to
say anybody that redoes their storefront has to make it look like a western
21
ROSS Yes. They did say that it would be. . .they would give this approval
contingent upon his obtaining Workers Compensation insurance.
HARBICHT Well, what are we talking about it for, then?
MILLER I was going to say, it's not on the agenda tonight so you can't act on it.
FASCHING Well, we're not. . .I'm just throwing this out to Council.
MILLER Oh, O.K.
WOOLARD From the Council he's looking at us to waive the City fee.
ROSS You're talking about the work permit, which I have no knowledge of.
HARBICHT You mean the business license fee, is that what he's talking about getting
waived?
LOJESKI He's running a business and collects the admission. Why. . . .
HARBICHT Why would we do that?
FASCHING Well, I think the only reason we would think about it is, number one, it
brings a little cultural theater to the Library for the benefit of the
students and adults. I don't know what his expenses are, but I know he
has rehearsals for these plays and things like that. He's going to put
out $1,250 up front to State Fund, he tells me, to acquire the Workman's
Comp. So his attitude was. . .he's very nice about the whole thing, I mean
he's a resident of the City and says that he just doesn't have a whole lot
of money to be putting out on this type of thing. I don't think the guy's
going to get rich on it, myself, but he'll make a few bucks probably. It's
not a big deal. So, I don't know. . .whichever way you gentlemen want to
go. But you have to look at it, is it bringing something of value to the
City even though he is going to get reimbursed on some level for it, but
is it important to the City and the community.
MARGETT I always go back to precedent. In other words, we let this guy do it,
then. . .you know, I can remember here at that last Council meeting somebody
came in and wanted fees waived for putting in a generator for taking
pictures over at the Arboretum, and we said no. I don't know whether or
not you can all of a sudden say, well, yes, we'll allow the show at the
Library, but we're not going to be able to allow somebody to make a few
nickels putting on a production over at the Arboretum. Nobody's cutting
a fat hog, I don't think. But by the same token, I think we better
establish a policy so that if something down the road comes, you're going
to be consistent.
FASCHING We already have a policy. I think we have to decide each one, if we feel
if it's a benefit to the community, and then make the decision. I don't
happen to feel that the generator situation in the Arboretum, making a
commercial film, is of any benefit to the City. But little kids going to
a play at the Library might be a different situation.
HARBICHT Well, we can't make a decision right. . .though I guess I'm not in favor of
waiving the fee.
FASCHING O.K.
MARGETT I wouldn't be either.
FASCHING O.K. I just wanted to get a feeling out of you gentlemen.
2. BUSINESS O.K. We'll go on to the next item on the agenda. . .the business districts.
DISTRICTS - All right. Then the next item is Redevelopment on the business district.
MAYOR FASCHING Prior to that, I'd like to make one little announcement here, which I think
you're all aware of. There is a conference in San Jose on August 6 and
7 concerning downtown revitalization, Main Street prototypes. And I
intend to go to this. This might be of interest to us down the road
concerning our own business district. So I wanted to remind you of that
17
conference. And we have Mr. Larew from our Chamber of Commerce in the
audience. He is available to us for any item we may want to ask
him, on behalf of the Chamber. And I think the main point of this
discussion on business districts is a general feeling--and correct me if
I'm wrong--that we feel that there needs to be something done with our
business districts. The business district on Huntington Drive, the
business district on First Avenue for what's there, but just revitaliza-
tion. Baldwin Avenue falls into this perspective also, as does Live Oak
Avenue down in South Arcadia. And I think that this has been talked back
and forth in years, but nothing really being accomplished in it when we
look at other cities and what they've done with their business districts.
So, with that I'll open it up to general discussion. Mr. Harbicht.
HARBICHT Well, we've got this memo dated 6/10 on things that have been done, can
be done, and the one thing I see missing from here is this ^rogram that
we've had for redoing the facades of businesses in the downy .in area.
WOOLARD We've put together a book of before and afters. Some of these .11 be done
with a funding program that we had through the Block Grant Program. The
others were done individually.
CIRAULO Do we still have that program available? It was, what, a 50-50 thing, is
that how it worked?
WOOLARD _ It's still possible, but it's questionable as to the value of it at this
point.
HARBICHT How many did we do, or were done, under that program?
WOOLARD We did. . .about 16 or so places got some funds. Some were complete facade
removals and others were just for signs and awnings. So some were major
things and others were minor. The problem is that the amount of funding
that you now have to devote to your person of low-moderate income, that
percentage has increased. So the amount of money that would be available
for this program is substantially reduced. The fact that you have to go
through Mavis Bacon for the contractors and stuff makes it difficult to
find somebody, and the administration costs of monitoring all of their
employees and everything else makes it not a very cost-effective program.
But there are other ways the same types of things can be funded. Loans
through redevelopment agencies rather than just loans for other types of
(inaudible) might be available rather than the Block Grants. They're not
as constrained as the Block Grants were. Maybe it will have some. . . .
KINNAHAN In your package that Bob referred to, number seven refers to information
on a possible agency pilot commercial investor rebate loan program. That
deals exactly with picking up where the CDBG program left off. Where the
Redevelopment Agency could, in the downtown, finance a rehab commercial
loan program, or a grant program, (inaudible) program. We've done some
initial research into programs offered through other cities and other
agencies. We've researched the downtown as to the possible need for such.
The need is there. The program exists in other communities. We have funds
available in Arcadia to create such a program if the Agency wants it, in
this case the Agency. We can certainly come back to you with a clear
program concept where we can attack the small problem like signs. We can
probably create an architectural incentive program where there's two or
three architects who can assist a business. We help to pay for it, to
encourage them to take advantage of our design criteria, and then we can
also provide the rebate loan, the rebate to them to do the work. And it's
being modeled very much on the CDBG program.
CIRAULO Well, I like that whole idea.
HARBICHT Yeah, but we've already done it.
KINNAHAN We have, but there's quite a few more to do. We're not done yet.
CIRAULO There's a lot more to do.
HARBICHT The others didn't move when we offered it before. What's the probability
that they would move if we offered it again?
18
L_.
WOOLARD Well, in this market it's slim.
CIRAULO I guess you don't know. But it's not a bad idea to make them aware of it,
I think, again.
WOOLARD Can this be used outside of the redevelopment area?
KINNAHAN There's two issues. The first one, the program didn't work before because
it was--Donna, correct me--it was not very much of an incentive program.
As the program went along, they began to offer more and more incentives
and give more and more of a rebate, and towards the end of the program it
got very successful. If I recollect, there was a waiting list when the
program finally went out of business. . .there was about two or three that
were in line.
ASSISTANT There were a few. Actually, we offered the same program all along, but
PLANNING DIR. what happened was I think everybody was just very leery of it, they didn't
DONNA BUTLER really understand the project. When we had the earthquake, that was the
greatest incentive that we probably had, the Whittier earthquake. Because
that's when the first, which was the Steerburger, took advantage of the
funding. And from that point, we went down. . .everybody kind of started
asking questions. We had our consultants go individually to each of the
businesses. But that really was the first push. We had a few people
before that that did some minor painting, a couple of signs, but up until
that time it was strictly two or three businesses.
WOOLARD In that downtown area someone at that time did go store to store to inform
the people of the program, gave handouts, and they tried to provide all
the information they could on the thing.
CIRAULO That was within the redevelopment area, though.
WOOLARD It coincidentally was within that area. Outside the redevelopment area
you couldn't use the CDBG funds.
FASCHING What's the possibility of. . .there must be a firm or people that specialize
in modernizing and updated community business districts where they give
you a concept and a plan and street, and buildings, and overall design,
and this type of thing. I'd like to think that we could have somebody that
would come in and look at our City and say this is what you should do here,
and you should do here, and that, and give us an idea of a concept and a
design to follow in all aspects. . . .
HARBICHT We've already done it.
WOOLARD That's what we had in the downtown. . . .
FASCHING Well, where is it? What did they say? Everybody was going to follow a
general plan?
HARBICHT No. As a result of their plan, we established design criteria downtown,
we've got a list of colors, we have a list of materials that you have to
use if you're redesigning anything in the downtown area. We put in new
street furniture, we put in new crosswalks, we put in all new street trees
down there. All of that was a result of those recommendations. And so
we have a design criteria for downtown.
FASCHING Where did we drop the ball?
HARBICHT What do you mean?
FASCHING Well, why does it look like it does?
HARBICHT These are privately owned businesses. You can't force them to. . . .
FASCHING Well, that's what I mean. This is why we're here, is to. . .how do we get
those businesses and what steps can we take to get this job done? And what
will it take?
WOOLARD The next step we had was offering free money to. . . .
19
CIRAULO Well, what I would like to see, is there any way we can expand it beyond
the formal redevelopment area, say on First Avenue, for instance?
KINNAHAN I reviewed that with the Agency attorney, and basically, when you go
outside a project area boundary, you have to show a direct relationship
and benefit to the project area. So if you were to go across the street
from the project area, you can probably say, well, that's probably a
benefit. You start getting a block away. . . .
CIRAULO Are there any (inaudible) that we could use to help those people. . .any
programs available?
KINNAHAN Not through the Redevelopment Agency. As I understand, not the Block Grant
because. . . .
CIRAULO In any other way?
•
KINNAHAN And the only other ones would be through private financing, through a
bank. . .there is. . .that's about it.
HARBICHT There is another one. We could take City funds and make them available.
KINNAHAN Well, I'm not sure. It might get (inaudible) .
LOJESKI When you look in that book there are some outstanding examples of junk and
something that really looks nicer.
HARBICHT There's been tremendous improvements.
LOJESKI Tremendous improvements. . .but they're all downtown.
HARBICHT O.K. , well I was just responding to your suggestion that we hire a
consultant. We've already done it.
FASCHING But he didn't tell us, though, of maybe one concept to follow in the
design. In other words, let's take those little stores on Huntington
between Santa Anita. and First. They all look different. Is there
something we could do to make that whole front of those stores all kind
of tie in to one design and still maintain their individuality, but we have
something that really looks like something for the whole length of the
block instead of somebody here with one thing and somebody with something
else. It gives a whole feeling to the block, is what I'm thinking of, and
then continue it on down to Second Avenue.
MARGETT You mean a continuity of a theme, George?
FASCHING Continuity of a theme.
HARBICHT Sort of a mini-mall look.
FASCHING Jump in here.
MARGETT Well, I'm listening here. You have the microphone.
FASCHING But that's the thing I'm talking about. I think these individuals, where
this guy puts on his style awning and the other guy puts on his style
awning, and we don't have any continuity down that street. I think that
Monrovia accomplished that. . .
HARBICHT They don't have continuity. . . .
FASCHING No, wait a minute. . .through the use of trees and street design they gave
it a concept.
MARGETT Well, I think they did, Bob, down Myrtle Avenue, I think they did give it
a concept, a turn-of-the-century type of look.
FASCHING But they did it with trees and street, Bob. They didn't do it with
storefronts. Well, storefronts are nice, but they don't all look alike.
20
HARBICHT But we did it with trees, too. And crosswalks, the monument signs, the
center divider.
WOOLARD If it wasn't for racetrack traffic you could do a lot more down there, but
we need two lanes in each direction to. . . .
FASCHING Well, there's got to be something we have to do, because it can't stay
looking like that for the next 10 years. 'It looks horrible. Baldwin
Avenue, down there, that big old sign sticking out there in front of
Hinshaw's with all those places on it, I don't think that has much
attractiveness or warmth to that street. I think the best looking street
we've got is Live Oak, with the way it's laid out with the center divider
and the trees and the grass and everything, to a degree. But my feeling
is we've got to :ome up with a feeling for our City that it all ties
together. And we have some trees down on there. . .I was up on Foothill
today, we've got some big trees that need trimming, we've got some little
trees that don't need trimming, and it just doesn't look very representa-
tive of the way our City should look. Maybe we need more tree trimmers.
Donna, you wanted to say something?
BUTLER Well, the only thing I was going to point out was, in talking about. . .Will-
dan was the company that was hired to take a look at the whole entire area.
And as Bob mentioned, one of the things that they were trying to do to tie
the area together. . .because one of the biggest problems down there is you
don't have similarity of design in buildings. They talked about
things. . .they felt that trying to create a theme in the downtown area just
wasn't really a theme you could tie all the buildings into. So what they
tried to do was, at that point in time, they tried to do it by the use of
colors, tying it in with the different types of paving materials, street
furniture, and so forth. Because that was the biggest problem that they
had. And it was presented to the Council, and the Council at the time went
along with the fact that it's very difficult to create a theme that doesn't
exist. I mean, you've got buildings that are so different in design and
style, so that was the use of the colors, the types of materials in the
downtown area, and that's why we adopted the downtown design overlay, which
set forth the specific colors, signing. . .which we're still trying to
encourage the replacement of older signs, but it still hasn't taken place
everywhere. But that was a major discussion. We've got a plan, which is
approximately yea big, that was done at the time they discussed all the
different treatments, what could be done and what couldn't be done and so
forth. We used,Block Grant funds to finance that study, and it's just that
I think it's important. . .you know, we did try to come up with something,
but I think it was felt that this was the best way to tie everything
together was through the use of landscaping. . . .
FASCHING Then I guess maybe what we're looking at here is how do we complete the
program that we came up with.
CIRAULO Well, I'd like to ask, if we can, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to ask Howard, do
you have any feel for how the merchants might feel, Howard, about this
idea, or have you heard anything?
HOWARD LAREW I've mainly heard, in South Arcadia, Joe, that people are not real excited
(PRES. , CH. OF with the storefronts down there. Downtown along Huntington Drive has
COMMERCE) certainly improved over the years, and I have no feel for individual
businesses as to whether they would be willing to put up their own funds
to do it. I think with the economy the way it is, they're all looking for
help. And I think they'd probably be receptive to some kind of a program.
CIRAULO I know I hear occasionally from the people on First Avenue south of
Huntington. But the problem, Pete tells us, that's not even the original
redevelopment area. So that's a whole different kind of an idea. . .a whole
different ballgame.
HARBICHT I think that, with regard to downtown. . .I'm talking about Huntington Drive
when I say downtown. . .a number of businesses took advantages of the Block
Grant program that we have. A number of others have gone ahead and
upgraded their storefronts. We still have some that are left to do. And
I don't think that a theme is feasible. I don't think it's feasible to
say anybody that redoes their storefront has to make it look like a western
21
saloon, or whatever we decide is the theme. I just don't think that's
feasible because we're having a hard enough time just getting the majority
of them to redo their fronts. I mean, it's taken us years. But I think
the best that we can realistically shoot for is to try to get some of those
other ones that are in pretty bad shape to redo their storefronts within
the color and materials guidelines that we have in force down there, which
they would have to use if they do redo it. So the real question is, how
can we get them to do it? And it sounds to me that maybe using some
redevelopment funds and putting a priority on that in that we ask that some
significant amount of staff time be invested in contacting people, saying
the City is willing to put up this much money, or whatever, to help you
do this. And I think the possibility of maybe having two or three
architects who are tuned into the program, and we could say if you'll
contact one of these people, or we'll have one of them contact you, is the
only way we're going to accomplish it. Because we've got all kinds of
absentee owners down there who don't see it. . . .
FASCHING Well, I agree with what you're saying. I think. . .probably a concept we'd
like to see, but I think maybe it might be well for us to concentrate on
what we can do. In other words, what we can do with our streets, what we
can do with our landscaping and our trees, to make it much more desirable.
Then we go. . . .
•
HARBICHT Like what?
FASCHING Well, I don't know, but we can certainly. . . .
HARBICHT We put in all new street trees three or four years ago. . .
FASCHING Well, maybe there's some more we can do, I don't know.
HARBICHT . . .we redid the railroad bridge, we got the center divider, and we put in
crosswalks. I don't know what's left.
FASCHING Well, O.K. It's always good. . .we can still take another look at it from
that standpoint. That's what we can do. What we can't do is come up with
a theme or this other thing. But to try to make available to these
business owners what we can to rehabilitate their storefronts, and if they
don't want to do it then what do we have, as a body, that we can do by
resolution to make them. . .force them to get into a. . . .
HARBICHT Force them to do it?
FASCHING Well, I don't know, maybe condemn their property. . .they're in a
redevelopment area.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, you know, I talked to a realtor, a prominent realtor in town,
and we were talking much in the same vein that the Council is talking right
now. She said that invariably the owners or the tenants that are in these
small stores really don't want anything more to be done on the front of
those stores, because invariably then the landlord wants to raise rents
and they cannot afford rents. . .now this is what she said. She said that
there's nothing that would really induce. . .and what you need on Huntington
Drive, if we're still talking Huntington Drive, is something that would
induce foot traffic on Huntington Drive. There's nobody that wants to park
over in back of Jimmy Chin's building or in front of the post office and
walk across the street and walk up and down Huntington Drive to be able
to buy something. There's just not that inducement. I was thinking just ,
the other day. . .and I don't know whether staff has had any consideration
about this. . .but we've got, apparently, a post office that's going to be
torn down and refurbished. I think there's a ton of foot traffic in front
of that post office. I don't know whether we should not consider
putting. . .
[End of Tape 1 - Side 2, beginning of Tape 2 - Side 1]
. . .stuff money into it and let's get block grants, let's get. . .and so on
and so forth. . .and we might be just trying to chase a dead horse. It might
22
11
very well be that that area has purely lost it's economic use for that
area. It just may not be. . . .
Why?
HARGETT . . .where it is. And that's a natural transition that's taken place.
FASCHING Well, what do you do with it then?
CIRAULO With a lack of parking, that could very well be.
FASCHING What do we do with it?
LOJESKI That's your whole key. The whole key to the situation, George. Look at
the north side versus the south side.
MARGETT You say what do you do with it. . .excuse me, Dennis, I cut you off. I
didn't mean to.
LOJESKI No, I interrupted you. But I'm just saying, look at the north side versus
the south side of the street between First Avenue and Santa Anita. I look
at it every day. The north side has plenty of traffic. Why? Why do the
storefronts look better? Why do you have businesses proliferating on that
side? You've got parking for the customers. The minute you take parking ,
away, such as you have done, or there's a lack of 'it. . .we haven't
done. . .but that's the way the area developed. The businesses are in
shambles on the south side of the street.
MARGETT Well, see, staff will tell you that there's sufficient parking in the area
to be able to take care of both,the north and south sides.
LOJESKI Gockley's is gone because Gockley's, first of all, had two parking spaces
behind their store and people couldn't come in there. They couldn't
function.
FASCHING Gockley's, I think, was a result of being gobbled up by people that. . .all
the wholesale stationery stores.
LOJESKI But that's the value of retail business today. You have to make yourself
available to the customer. If the customer is going to come into a mama
and poppa area, there's got to be incentive. And if you can't park right
there. . .you know, a signal, a better situation for that intersection of
Huntington and First was put in. . .what did it do? It took parking spaces
away on the street. There was no additional parking to the poor businesses
on the west side of the street, and that stationery store went under. In
other words, it was just another thing that happened down there.
FASCHING Then I guess we can throw First Avenue into the same category. Maybe it's
beyond it's, commercial use.
LOJESKI I don't know. It's all in the redevelopment area.
FASCHING I come back to the question, what do we do with it? Just let it sit?
HARGETT No.
FASCHING What?
LOJESKI I think you've given incentives to the people in that area, much more than
we've ever been able to give, than we've ever done in West Arcadia, South
Arcadia, Foothill Boulevard. We haven't gotten into any assistance
programs up in those areas.
MARGETT We can't do everything. In other words, if it's true what you said, that
we have provided all those incentives, City government, local government,
has been able to provide those incentives and we've gone the extra mile
and we've had the staff reports and we've had the consultants go ahead and
look at those areas and still things haven't clicked, then I would say that
it could very well be that we've lost our use. for that land. When you find
condominiums coming right back up to the developments that are all on the
23
south side of Huntington Drive, you're not going to go in there and lay
those waste and build more parking area, I don't think. And I would say
that it may very well be, Mr. Mayor, to be able to. . .and I'm sure that a
feasibility study as to what that area should be may be just what you want
to do.
LOJESKI The Willdan study did that. The Willdan study addressed the south side
of Huntington Drive and said if it's going to remain in the long-range plan
of things a business commercial area, there has to be parking created.
And their recommendation was to take the north side of Alta Street and
devote that to parking. So you've got now developable sites, O.K.? You've
got the availability, hypothetically, of AT&T to come in, let's say, and
build a three-story building. . . .
FASCHING Where?
LOJESKI On Huntington Drive, let's say.
FASCHING Between First and Santa Anita?
LOJESKI Could be. Could be. You've got an anchor on one side which is a bank,
George, O.K.? It's the only decent building, I think, in that whole block.
FASCHING Home Savings?
LOJESKI Sure.
MARGETT And they're short of parking.
LOJESKI Not really.
HARGETT Well, their parking is across the street. . .is that what somebody's going
to do to cash their. . . .
LOJESKI No, but that's my point, O.K.? If you cannot go to a mama and poppa store,
then what's the incentive to go there? You're going to go to a mall,
you're going to go to Monrovia, or wherever is convenient.
MARGETT But what I'm saying, the next step, if we're going to generate parking,
where are you going to generate it? Go in there and lay waste some of
those condominiums that are brand new?
LOJESKI From between First and Second, you're stuck. Between Santa Anita and First
Avenue you're not stuck. By that I'm saying just by the age of the
structures.
HARBICHT Yeah, but you're stuck from a cost standpoint.
LOJESKI Sure. No doubt about it. I'm just saying we have a study that was done.
If I'm wrong Bill, that was one of three studies over the last 25 years,
I think, that's been done. They have all addressed the south side of
Huntington Drive in that very direct (inaudible) .
MARGETT In other words, does that study say that that is a viable economic entity
on the south side of Huntington Drive, we can really make some money there
if we provide parking?
LOJESKI If you have parking.
FASCHING Well, I doubt that very much.
MARGETT So do I.
LOJESKI George, it's undevelopable from a retail standpoint. . . .
FASCHING We already have all this development land out there that we want to develop
anyway. What we want to do is clean up the looks of the business district.
We don't have the parking, they're stuck there. And if we don't clean them
up, we don't have the parking, what are we going to do with them?
24
( )
HARBICHT I think we've got two different things here we're talking about. One is
parking, that's a whole separate issue. And if we want to take that
up. . .there's no question that parking would help the viability of that
area. But the cost of providing that parking is so astronomical that I
don't think that. . . .
FASCHING Plus the cost of relocating all those tenants and the (inaudible) . It's
not even in the ballpark.
HARBICHT The second issue is to say, what can we do to clean up that area, to get
the rest of it looking nice. And I guess I come back to what I said
before, is I think that I would be willing to entertain the idea of using,
maybe, some redevelopment money and putting together a program much like
we had before but maybe with a little less red tape. But basically, what
you're going to be doing when you cut it all away is you're saying to the
owner, "If you'll spend $30,000 fixing up the front of this building, we'll
pay for $15,000 of it." That's what it'comes down to.
FASCHING But you know what? It wouldn't cost him $30,000.
HARBICHT I just use that as an example. I don't know what it would cost.
FASCHING They don't want to spend five grand.
HARBICHT But I specifically reject the idea that we say, "Well, if you won't do it
voluntarily, somehow we're going to make you do it." Because I won't vote
to do that. I don't know if it's possible, but if it was, I wouldn't vote
to do it.
CIRAULO They're all doing so poorly, I just don't think they have the money to. . . .
FASCHING Who's they? Not the property owners, the guys renting the buildings are
doing poorly.
CIRAULO Yeah, the businesses that are there.
FASCHING The guys that own the property paid for it a long time ago.
CIRAULO He doesn't care.
FASCHING It's all lint in his pocket.
CIRAULO I'm talking about the poor little business guy who's there.
FASCHING That's right. So then our City slinks along with these businesses looking
like heck on Huntington Drive. The property owner puts all that paid-off
building money in his pocket. And we can end up with people doing pawn
shops with gates on the front and all that type of stuff.
MARGETT We're getting back to the thesis that I put out on the table, Mr. Mayor.
Maybe you have lost that use of that property.
FASCHING O.K. , then I'll pose this question to you--what are we going to do with
it?
MARGETT O.K. , well, we're going full circle here. If that is viable, if we know
for sure that we can make things click down there by providing Block Grant
funds or similar programs, I would be in favor of that. But there's no
sense in going in there and giving a Block Grant-type program and still
have people worried that their rental rates are going to go up. And we
haven't really generated any of the income or the tax that we can get to
substantiate spending the money.
CIRAULO See, I think they're going to get even less traffic and do less business
once Nordstrom's moves in and the mall has got a whole new thing.
FASCHING I think we should go on to the next subject. . .we'll never come to a. . . .
CIRAULO Well, I know, but what do we do with it?
25
FASCHING Yeah, what do we do with it? That's what we're here for, to decide what
to do with it, not to find out all the economical problems of those guys
selling costumes and everything.
MARGETT I think that a lot of it. . .and we're sitting here trying to make that
decision, Mr. Mayor. But, you know, we've got the Chamber of Commerce and
we've got the owners of the building, and we've also got the tenants of
the building. They should be saying, hey, this is what would be beneficial
for this downtown area. And I don't hear them saying anything.
CIRAULO Well, let me ask, Pete, you attend the Downtown Business Association
meetings occasionally. What do they say, what's the feel, what do you
hear?
KINNAHAN I don't recall that really coming up. It's, probably a question -~at can
be posed to them :o get their input.
LOJESKI I'll give you an answer to that, Joe. Bob and I, as two candidates for
the City Council, attended a meeting with the downtown Arcadia business
merchants. Their key question to all the candidates is what are you going
to do to protect. . .I'll give you an example. . .the guy that owns and
operates Rod's Diner says, "What are you going to do to protect my business
so I can stay in business at the expense of what's going to develop—at the
Ford agency? What is your concept, Mr. Councilman? What are you going
to do so my business doesn't suffer?" That's a tough question to answer.
That's where their concern was. The old, established guy, he'll continue
to operate down there.
FASCHING I don't know. That's an old, established restaurant, Rod's. Well, the
thing here is that we can go over all of these problems to the shop owner,
the retailer, the property owner, but we're not getting to the solving of
the problem. If it looks like hell, how do we make it look better
for. . .and you can't convince me that if everything looks better they're
not going to enjoy more business, with one problem in mind is the parking
on the south side of Huntington. But if you continue to allow these to
exist and continue to deteriorate, and the lower class retailer is getting
in there because the place looks like hell in a period of time, that
doesn't help our City.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, would you suggest that we have a session with representatives
of the downtown owners and the tenants and the Chamber of Commerce and see
what they would think that would be beneficial for them down there?
FASCHING No, I wouldn't.
MARGETT Well, how can we sit here and tell them that this is going to be good for
them?
FASCHING, O.K. , all I'm looking at is this. We're probably looking at maybe eight
or nine property owners involved in this. Any businessman in his right
mind would not tell us that improvements of the business district would
not be beneficial to him. So if I wanted him to come in and tell me how
to handle the property owners and get them to do what they should do to
improve their buildings, that's one thing. But they can't tell us that.
They can only tell us what they consider is a good retailing situation.
And we know what a good retailing situation is. Not a deteriorating
retailing situation. And I think I come back to Bob, we have to have
somebody that goes out and calls on these property owners and convinces
them that it's in the best interest of our City, and them, and their future
to participate in an upgrade of their business front, and try and do that.
MARGETT You know, George, I think that's fine. I just don't know that we're
hitting nails on heads and getting to the root of the problem. Putting
a new storefront and then saying everybody is going to come in here and
buy new watches or whatever this guy is trying to sell over there, I don't
know whether they're going to be able to do that.
FASCHING Well, then, let's blow it up. We'll get rid of it.
26
MARGETT So everybody can walk down or drive down Huntington Drive and say, "This
is beautiful"?
FASCHING You're saying just because. . .I'm not talking about. . .you're saying just
because we say new storefronts, new awnings, and it looks nice, and paint
and everything else, that they're going to sell more watches? I can't
guarantee that, Bob. But I can guarantee it's going to sure make our City
look a lot better.
MARGETT No question about it.
FASCHING That's what I'm interested in.
MARGETT O.K. , but how is this guy going to substantiate the spending of $30,000
or $15,000 or whatever?
FASCHING You don't know. . .Bob, to fix up the storefront on one of those small
buildings, I would estimate would be $3,000, $3,500. Buy a canopy and
paint. Maybe some new facade on it with the split brick or something.
You're not talking $30,000. I do my carwash once a year. I make the whole
thing look different, it doesn't cost me more than $8,000 or $9,000.
CIRAULO You're saying split that cost with them? The City split the cost with. . . .
FASCHING Do we have the money available in Community Block Grant funds?
KINNAHAN Redevelopment funds.
FASCHING Sure. We have to have a program that we're going to go out there and sell
these people.
LOJESKI What about this Business Improvement District? What is that all about?
WOOLARD That's like an ABA, who had formed their own group. And they can be taxed
on their business licenses to put money into their association. They then
sponsor events and do other promotional activities and stuff to encourage
activities, hopefully, spending the money within their district.
CIRAULO I have to agree with everybody else. There is very little that they can
do that's going to encourage more business because there's no parking.
So the business they have now, that's pretty much the business they're
going to get. But what we could do is improve the appearance of the
street, I guess that's what we're talking about, right?
WOOLARD I think you've got a real problem down there. . .I don't want to say real
problem. . .you have a problem in that it's not going to be a retail area.
You can fix up the storefronts to look fantastic, and you're still not
going to get anybody selling anything because that's not where people go
to buy. They go to the malls, they go to the mini malls.
FASCHING Well, not necessarily. They're all open, doing business.
LOJESKI Look what's on the north side, George. You've got. . . .
FASCHING There's vacancies on the north side, too. There's vacancies. Gockley's
has been vacant for a year.
LOJESKI It's been sold.
FASCHING Well, just recently.
HARBICHT Are you saying, if it's moving away from retail, the retail office. . . .
LOJESKI You're moving into offices. . .you've got attorneys on the north side, you've
got a hair dressing salon, which is a destination that women. . . .
FASCHING O.K. , whether it be an attorney's office or hair. . .I don't care if it's
retail. I just want it to look good. I don't care what's in there.
HARBICHT How many want it to look good?
27
MARGETT So everybody can walk down or drive down Huntington Drive and say, "This
is beautiful"?
FASCHING You're saying just because. . .I'm not talking about. . .you're saying just
because we say new storefronts, new awnings, and it looks nice, and paint
and everything else, that they're going to sell more watches? I can't
guarantee that, Bob. But I can guarantee it's going to sure make our City
look a lot better.
MARGETT No question about it.
FASCHING That's what I'm interested in.
MARGETT O.K. , but how is this guy going to substantiate the spending of $30,000
or $15,000 or whatever?
FASCHING You don't know. . .Bob, to fix up the storefront on one of those small
buildings, I would estimate would be $3,000, $3,500. Buy a canopy and
paint. Maybe some new facade on it with the split brick or something.
You're not talking $30,000. I do my carwash once a year. I make the whole
thing look different, it doesn't cost me more than $8,000 or $9,000.
CIRAULO You're saying split that cost with them? The City split the cost with. . . .
FASCHING Do we have the money available in Community Block Grant funds?
KINNAHAN Redevelopment funds.
FASCHING Sure. We have to have a program that we're going to go out there and sell
these people.
LOJESKI What about this Business Improvement District? What is that all about?
WOOLARD That's like an ABA, who had formed their own group. And they can be taxed
on their business licenses to put money into their association. They then
sponsor events and do other promotional activities and stuff to encourage
activities, hopefully, spending the money within their district.
CIRAULO I have to agree with everybody else. There is very little that they can
do that's going to encourage more business because there's no parking.
So the business they have now, that's pretty much the business they're
going to get. But what we could do is improve the appearance of the
street, I guess that's what we're talking about, right?
WOOLARD I think you've got a real problem down there. . .I don't want to say real
problem. . .you have a problem in that it's not going to be a retail area.
You can fix up the storefronts to look fantastic, and you're still not
going to get anybody selling anything because that's not where people go
to buy. They go to the malls, they go to the mini malls.
FASCHING Well, not necessarily. They're all open, doing business.
LOJESKI Look what's on the north side, George. You've got. . . .
FASCHING There's vacancies on the north side, too. There's vacancies. Gockley's
has been vacant for a year.
LOJESKI It's been sold.
FASCHING Well, just recently.
HARBICHT Are you saying, if it's moving away from retail, the retail office. . . .
LOJESKI You're moving into offices. . .you've got attorneys on the north side, you've
got a hair dressing salon, which is a destination that women. . . .
FASCHING O.K. , whether it be an attorney's office or hair. . .I don't care if it's
retail. I just want it to look good. I don't care what's in there.
HARBICHT How many want it to look good?
27
MARGETT So everybody can walk down or drive down Huntington Drive and say, "This
is beautiful"?
FASCHING You're saying just because. . .I'm not talking about. . .you're saying just
because we say new storefronts, new awnings, and it looks nice, and paint
and everything else, that they're going to sell more watches? I can't
guarantee that, Bob. But I can guarantee it's going to sure make our City
look a lot better.
MARGETT No question about it.
FASCHING That's what I'm interested in.
MARGETT O.K. , but how is this guy going to substantiate the spending of $30,000
or $15,000 or whatever?
FASCHING You don't know. . .Bob, to fix up the storefront on one of those small
buildings, I would estimate would be $3,000, $3,500. Buy a canopy and
paint. Maybe some new facade on it with the split brick or something.
You're not talking $30,000. I do my carwash once a year. I make the whole
thing look different, it doesn't cost me more than $8,000 or $9,000.
CIRAULO You're saying split that cost with them? The City split the cost with. . . .
FASCHING Do we have the money available in Community Block Grant funds?
KINNAHAN Redevelopment funds.
FASCHING Sure. We have to have a program that we're going to go out there and sell
these people.
LOJESKI What about this Business Improvement District? What is that all about?
WOOLARD That's like an ABA, who had formed their own group. And they can be taxed
on their business licenses to put money into their association. They then
sponsor events and do other promotional activities and stuff to encourage
activities, hopefully, spending the money within their district.
CIRAULO I have to agree with everybody else. There is very little that they can
do that's going to encourage more business because there's no parking.
So the business they have now, that's pretty much the business they're
going to get. But what we could do is improve the appearance of the
street, I guess that's what we're talking about, right?
WOOLARD I think you've got a real problem down there. . .I don't want to say real
problem. . .you have a problem in that it's not going to be a retail area.
You can fix up the storefronts to look fantastic, and you're still not
going to get anybody selling anything because that's not where people go
to buy. They go to the malls, they go to the mini malls.
FASCHING Well, not necessarily. They're all open, doing business.
LOJESKI Look what's on the north side, George. You've got. . . .
FASCHING There's vacancies on the north side, too. There's vacancies. Gockley's
has been vacant for a year.
LOJESKI It's been sold.
FASCHING Well, just recently.
HARBICHT Are you saying, if it's moving away from retail, the retail office. . . .
LOJESKI You're moving into offices. . .you've got attorneys on the north side, you've
got a hair dressing salon, which is a destination that women. . . .
FASCHING O.K. , whether it be an attorney's office or hair. . .I don't care if it's
retail. I just want it to look good. I don't care what's in there.
HARBICHT How many want it to look good?
27
- )
.y
Springfield, Illinois, that, I tell you. . .he went in there and was checking
with the Chamber of Commerce and the Redevelopment Agency that they have
there. And I tell you, they would do anything to get this fellow to move
from Irwindale back there to be able to manufacture furniture com-
ponents. . .labor market, less labor market, less OSHA, less everything, to
be able to do that. And I think that you're going to be competing, we're
going to be competing with that type of marketing.
FASCHING Plus, his family could buy a 3,000-square-foot house for $135,000.
MARGETT Right, the housing. . .right, George, that's another aspect of it.
LOJESKI Is our current attitude, I would hope, is an extremely positive one, to
actually sell the attributes of Arcadia. . .not sell the City down the road
or the river, or give things away, give the ranch away. . .but I mean to sell
the attributes to the development world and the possibilities of those
particular sites. They may be bastardized sites as far as looking like
arrowheads and things like that, but talk about the quality of the
community, freeway accessibility, even from a signage standpoint, O.K.?
And from that standpoint maybe we should be in mode to somewhat relax our
standards and that sort of thing. So if it was a viable business that was
backing up to the freeway that they could have some exposure so people
would know where they were.
HARBICHT Well, we have a fantastic brochure that does just that.
LOJESKI Has it ever been published or put out to anybody?
KINNAHAN Mm-hm. It was mailed out. . .we've used this extensively. As a matter of
fact, we're coming to the end of the number. . . .
MARGETT But, you know, the other thing that concerns me, gentlemen, about Arcadia
is the demographics that we have to offer a person coming in. You know,
we don't have a lot of people per square mile in Arcadia. We're fortunate
enough to have a lot of open space. We don't have that number, that sheer
number that people like from the standpoint of retail. And I thank the
Good Lord that Nordstrom's went by that and are coming in. And I think
that one of the problems that we have on Huntington Drive, Mr. Mayor, that
we talked about earlier is the sheer demographics. We don't have
demographics that make things economically viable to some of our areas.
HARBICHT Not for retail, but most of our interest has been in the area of office,
and we've put in the hotels, which have been a godsend, and that's probably
the way that's going to go. And I think the fact that they've got this
freeze on in Pasadena is going to help us. When things pick up and people
get back into the development game, they can't go into Pasadena, where's
the next logical place? They're going to look at Arcadia, because we're
close to Pasadena, which is one of the reasons that our hotels are
successful. I mean, I think we're positioned, when things turn around,
to market this property successfully.
FASCHING Well, now we come right back to marketing strategy. That's what I think
we're mainly concerned with, is how to market our property in the most
strategic ways and aggressive ways, and what markets can we go to to make
known the availability of this property to corporate headquarters that may
want to relocate from West L.A. or downtown Los Angeles. . . .
LOJESKI Or from elsewhere in the United States, maybe they want to come to Southern
California. I think we've got some prime locations.
FASCHING Well, we do. We have some nice properties. And if we get one going, they
all could possibly.
LOJESKI There's still a little, I think, of the stigma, too, in the development
world. And I heard this directly from an individual by the name of Blaine
Fadder. Blaine has had an interest in developing Huntington Drive at the
intersection of Huntington and Myrtle and has done a phenomenal job over
there, with corporate headquarters and things like that. And the stigma
being, "I won't bring a project to Arcadia because it's just too tough to
work with the people over there." Now, whatever that means. I certainly
hope that's not the situation and that we are more of in the "Hey, let's
37
CIRAULO Boy, that would turn into a projects. . .Arcadia Downtown Projects.
FRIEDMANN Then they say, "How much do you want." We say, "Well, the Agency had an
offer for light industrial in such-and-such a year for this amount of
money," and they turn that down. And then a few years later there was a
guy who was interested who wanted to pay $25 a square foot, and the
developer had no developing experience, but it seemed like the Agency was
more receptive to $25 a square foot. So it's hard to. . .they try to get
this information from us, so it would be helpful to have some direction
in the marketing.
HARBICHT Well, what was the per-square-foot selling price of the South Side Project
going to be?
KINNAHAN It was going to average around nineteen and a half.
HARBICHT The Agency had gone ahead with that and were willing to do the deal, so
at least that gives you some sort of a ballpark thing. On the north side
we're probably talking about a little less, because it doesn't have the
Huntington frontage. I mean, assuming we get the kind of development that
we want.
LOJESKI One thing, of course, if we could all put a crystal ball on it and say,
you know, we're going, to have a light rail, something or other, coming
through the City. You're going to talk about a dramatic change, I think,
particularly (inaudible) sales tax revenue. You put a station down in the
downtown area, you know, you're going to see an industrial-zoned area
perhaps changed to a commercial area.
FASCHING I'd like to comment on that. At the present time there. . .as of, say,
months ago, this whole corridor situation is under study trying to get the
extension of Pasadena to Azusa rather than terminating in East Pasadena.
And so there's been a lot of work done on that. At the present time there
is developing a real possibility of extending the Pasadena line to as far
as Arcadia, which would mean a terminus at the First and Santa Clara
property. The ridership falls off tremendously once you get past Arcadia,
in terms of ridership. The Transportation Coalition, as well as the
Transportation Commission of the San Gabriel Valley Association of Cities,
along with Duarte and Monrovia, not including Irwindale and Azusa because
they're really not players. But, the theory being that if we can get it
to Irwindale there's a lot of property there that could be the end of the
line. My concept in the past of a terminus of the light rail would
encompass. . .I had visions of storage yards for light rail cars and a
roundhouse or something of that nature. I thought this would be the deal.
But actually a terminus, I find, is only no more than probably a station
with the exception of it needs much more parking. So you don't have a
large facility. . .you have a station but that's the.end of the line. Now
they go the other way. But because it is the end of the line you have
to. . .and in this instance it's almost 1,000-car parking area for the
terminus. Pasadena does not want the terminus in East Pasadena. They have
to build a parking structure that they don't want to build, and they would
like to see it out of East Pasadena. There was a press conference last
Thursday where they made an announcement by LACTC, and there were other
officials there in front of the station in Pasadena, and David and I were
ther. As to the acquisition of the right-of-way from Santa Fe, it's
completed now, so it's a go situation with the Pasadena line. In
discussion with some of those people there from Pasadena, they're anxious
to get that thing beyond Pasadena because they don't want it to stop there,
they have a lot of problems in acquiring this land and building this
parking structure. And so, it's being supported also to take it further
than Pasadena by Tri-cities, which is Burbank and Glendale, because it
would be beneficial to them if we get it extended out here also, isn't that
correct? ' So, anyway, there is a strong possibility, and also Santa Anita
is fighting very hard for this, to get it as far as Arcadia. At this
point, whereas a year ago I would say to get it here would be in the year
2004, I think we have a 50-50 chance of getting it here at the same time
they do the Pasadena line. Which means it could be here in 1997.
HARBICHT Well, what are we going to do about parking?
39
4"
work together on this thing, let's try to see this thing happen and come
together." Again, not to give the farm away.
HARBICHT Well, I tell you, there's two ways to look at that. One is to say we're
too tough, we're hard to work with and so we're putting some people off.
The other side of the coin is we have high standards, we adhere to them,
we don't give up on parking, we have design review for all commercial
areas, and that is why Arcadia is what Arcadia is. So, you know, it
depends on what side of the fence you're on. I don't know if I want to
relax our standards. I certainly would hope that we would have a
cooperative attitude and try to work with people as much as possible, but
at the same time I think that. . . . I guess I keep going back to, you know,
60 or 70 years ago you had El Monte and Arcadia, not much difference
between the two, same climate, same soil and everything, and there were
some governmental decisions that were made in the two places. And today
Arcadia is what Arcadia is, and El Monto• is what El Monte is. And it came
about because of standards that were set in the two communities. And I
think that it's important that we maintain certain standards. There's
always the tendency to say, "Gee, we really would like to market this piece
of property or get somebody in so maybe we ought to back off a little bit."
I think we ought to be real careful about that.
FASCHING I don't think. . .you weren't referring to standards. I don't think we'd
want to relax our standards.
LOJESKI Absolutely not.
HARBICHT But a lot of people that say we're hard to work with are saying we're hard
to work with for just that reason. Because there's a lot of communities
that will say, "Well, yeah, we require five parking spaces per thousand
but we could probably work it out for four."
FASCHING Well, we can see evidence of relaxing standards on parking, particularly.
You can't do that.
WOOLARD We did that with Gribble, actually, by joint uses and stuff there the
parking was modified. And on the Johnson property north of the water
tanks. They got modifications for signs so they were visible from the
' freeway.
HARBICHT Higher, yeah. I think those are reasonable. . .working with people. I think
there were some valid reasons for. . . .
FASCHING I don't think we want to reduce our standards. Did you have something to
say?
FRIEDMANN We have signs on the properties right now. . .the signs have been there for
a while and I still get some calls sometimes. And the first question, of
course, everybody asks is, "How much is it?" And staff doesn't have the
answer to that question. And then they ask, "Well, what do you want to
see on this property?" And so then we kind of go back to the direction
we had from the Council before, and that was, well, we most likely would
like to see 70 percent of office projects. And then they say, "Well, thank
you very much." You can't get loans for office buildings.
CIRAULO What kind of projects are they offering?
FRIEDMANN Well, they're not offering really anything that. . .they're offering like,
a church, there are churches that call, and batting cages. . . .
MARGETT No, we don't want that.
FRIEDMANN Housing, a lot of people want to put housing on that site, on the four
acres.
CIRAULO Residents?
FRIEDMANN Right. Apartments, condos, low-mod housing. Housing was one of the
biggest things that we had interest in.
38
C)
HARBICHT Too bad.
CIRAULO Yeah, it is too bad.
MARGETT Yeah, that is too bad.
LOJESKI What about Dick Cordano? He went with the band a couple of times to
Australia.
MARGETT I have Beth Wells. And I tell you, she's knocking herself out for the
community.
LOJESKI What about Lois Patnou?
MARGETT She's very good. I would go Lois Patnou also.
HARBICHT I'd like to see Patnou and Cordano myself.
FASCHING Who do you want?
LOJESKI Those are the two names I had down for the commission.
FASCHING Who do you want, Bob?
MARGETT I thought Beth Wells and Patnou.
FASCHING Wait a minute, here, let's see. Who did you have?
HARBICHT I had Patnou. . . .
CIRAULO Patnou is good.
FASCHING And who was the other?
MARGETT Beth Wells.
HARBICHT Cordano.
FASCHING I would like to see Lois Patnou and Beth Wells.
MARGETT Have we got a consensus?
CIRAULO Yeah, I would go with that.
FASCHING With what?
CIRAULO Beth Wells and Patnou.
FASCHING O.K. , make the motion.
CIRAULO I will move that we have Beth Wells and Lois Patnou on the Sister City
Commission.
MARGETT Second the motion.
FASCHING Do you want a roll call on this? Any objections? So ordered.
HARBICHT Move to reappoint Pat Loechner and Janie Steckenrider.
CIRAULO Second.
FASCHING Move to appoint by Councilman Harbicht, seconded by, was it you, Bob?
MARGETT Well, I will. I didn't, but I will.
HARBICHT It was Joe, wasn't it?
CIRAULO Yeah.
45
t.
LOJESKI I'm making a motion to appoint Peggy Leatherman for the Assistance League
slot. She's a great lady.
MARGETT Second the motion.
FASCHING So ordered. Any objections?
HARBICHT I had Miller written down here. I have to review. . .
MARGETT Owen Miller?
HARBICHT I guess. I just made notes on here of who. . . .
LOJESKI Did Lois Patnou want to be appointed to the Sister City Commission or was
it the Senior Citizen Commission? Or did it make a difference?
MARGETT I don't think it made any difference.
FASCHING It might to her. Oh, it didn't make any difference? O.K.
LOJESKI Well, what I'm suggesting is, if you had that desire, you could put Lois
on the Senior Citizen Commission and you could put Richard Cordano, since
there was a couple of us that liked Dick's abilities, on the Sister City
Commission.
FASCHING O.K. , want to switch it?
CIRAULO He's put in an application for all the commissions, so it doesn't make any
difference to him apparently.
FASCHING Cordano?
CIRAULO Yeah.
FASCHING You don't want to put him on Senior Citizens?
LOJESKI No, I was just looking at his experience with the band. He has been so
instrumental and he knows so many of those people with the band coming
back this winter.
FASCHING All right. Make a motion, then, to remove Lois Patnou from the Sister
City Commission, put Dick Cordano on that commission, and to appoint Lois
Patnou to the Senior Citizens Commission.
HARBICHT How about Louise Gelber? We can't overlook her.
FASCHING She's running for office.
(Laughter)
CIRAULO We've got one more for Senior Citizens.
FASCHING No, we already put Lois Patnou on there.
MARGETT Patnou and Leatherman.
CIRAULO On Senior Citizens? Yeah Leatherman and Patnou, . O.K.
FASCHING And we put Dick Cordano and Beth Wells on Sister City. Do you have a
motion on that? O.K. , it was so moved.
5. MEASURE A
ARGUMENT -
CITY CHARTER
AMD. (9-15-92
SPEC. ELEC. ) -
HARBICHT Mr. Mayor, on the Finalization of Arguments. . . .
FASCHING Oh, excuse me, I skipped that. I see it.
46
,
4
MILLER All right, will you all be around the next couple of days so we can just
get it out to you and have you sign it?
MARGETT Sure. Or do you want us to drop in?
MILLER I'll figure it out tomorrow, whatever is easiest for you.
6. MATTERS FROM I have a couple of items that came up sort of at the last minute. One,
STAFF regarding the desire by the Personnel Board to tour the redevelopment
PERSONNEL BD. project area. They have no direct connection with this particular
(TOUR REDEV. function, but it's something we can do if the Council would like us to
PROJ. AREA) - undertake that activity.
WOOLARD
FASCHING I'd like to comment on that. They made this request a couple of times.
It's no big deal for us to do that, so I would recommend we just go ahead
and let staff handle that for them.
HARBICHT Why do they want to do this?
FASCHING I don't know, but it's been a controversy for a year, as you well know.
And if they want to drive around. . . .
MARGETT It's kind of an academic exercise, isn't it?
HARBICHT What does it have to do with their function as a personnel board? Nothing
whatsoever.
MARGETT Who's the liaison to Personnel?
LOJESKI Me.
MARGETT What did they say when they made the request?
LOJESKI I read it when it was given to us. They said nothing at their meeting.
Well, they periodically would go through and get a tour of the Police
Station, the Finance Department. They've done it in the City Clerk's
office at one time, the Fire Department.
HARBICHT I think those things are relevant because they're touring someone's
workplace and it may have some influence on some later decision they might
make. Touring the redevelopment area, I don't know how that's at all
relevant to the Personnel Board's responsibility.
FASCHING Well, let me ask Bill. How long would it take you to tour them, about 20
minutes? Ten?
WOOLARD Well, we'd recommend about an hour.
FASCHING Well, how could you take an hour to tour the redevelopment area?
HARBICHT Well, if they want to just look at it, they could get in their cars and
look at it.
KINNAHAN We'd stop, we'd talk, we'd go on. We'd stop, we'd talk, we'd go on.
There would be a little briefing before we left about the history of
redevelopment and. . . .
FASCHING Well, let me ask you this. If we had a group of citizens that came in and
wanted us to do this for them, what would you say?
MARGETT Fine. I would say, yeah, do it.
FASCHING Well, then, let's do it and get it over with and get it out of our hair.
It's been a bugaboo for a year.
HARBICHT Can't you get a Dial-a-Ride van and put some staff members in it and go
out with them?
48
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FASCHING One staff member,. Pete Kinnahan. That's all. It won't take long, and
they're satisfied, they're happy and they're concerned, and a little bit
more about redevelopment. I don't think it's relevant. But I think we
treat them like we treat any group that would come in and ask for a tour
of our redevelopment area. I don't think we'd turn them down. Next item.
WOOLARD We had a memo from Neal Johnson about the Boy Scout troop from Arcadia
(BOY SCOUT that's going to Indian National Jamboree and is requesting to use the City
NATIONAL seal over the entrance to their camp.
JAMBOREE -
CITY SEAL)
HARBICHT No problem at all with that.
CIRAULO Sounds good.
FASCHING So ordered.
LOJESKI Bill, do we have any extra City pins? We've given out in the past those
little pins.
HARBICHT If we don't have any around here, I've got some at home.
LOJESKI I mean, 20 scouts. . .I think this would be a real appropriate situation to
make sure each one has one.
WOOLARD If we do, we can always make them available to them.
HARBICHT Yeah, we ought to give them to them. I know that when we've had Sister
City trips that we've given them a whole bunch of pins and they'd pass
them out and everything. It's a great PR gimmick.
WOOLARD If we've got them, we'll include that. We would like to get your blue
binders back, those of you who haven't returned them for the budget, so
we can fill them up for next year. The easiest thing to do is to bring
it to the next Council meeting and we can get it at that time. Pete has
an item regarding the housing request from another city who is exploring
the idea of developing low, moderate. . . .
LOJESKI I'm absolutely against it.
CIRAULO I am, too.
LOJESKI I can't believe, Pete, that you're asking me to give money to El Segundo.
MARGETT Oh, no.
CIRAULO Forget it.
LOJESKI I don't even want to discuss it.
WOOLARD Legally, you can't do it right now, but that concept.
HARBICHT Pretty good idea. Hidden Hills will give them theirs.
FASCHING Any other matters from staff? Kinnahan.
KINNAHAN Just a real quickie, because it's late. One, I handed out tonight an item
NW COR. SITE - on the Northwest Corner site for a possible rail station. You may want
RAIL STATION to read the comments of the Corby Engineering staff guy on that. Lastly,
REDEVELOPMENT on redevelopment financing, Jim talked earlier about the impact on City
FINANCING - financing and the State crisis. The State has now come up with a coupled
(STATE CRISIS) new wrinkles. It appears one of the big ones may have gone away--that is
where the state would say to the school districts, "We're not going to
back you up for what goes to the Redevelopment Agency any more so you'll
be on your own." Which would mean that the School District would then
come to the Redevelopment Agency for its share of the tax increment. In
Arcadia it's about 25 percent of our T.I. That appears to be. . .it's not
on the current list, it's somehow gone away, which is good. They've added
49
to it, however, another one which is potentially unknown as far as its
impact. They just simply say that they might want to require that
agencies would receive in tax increment only what they've legally
contracted for. In our case, we have bonded indebtedness, that's $330,000
a year. Well, the rest of it is often pay as you go. We pay as we go.
They would sort of take that away. They would simply give us in tax
increment $330,000 because that's contractually established.
•
50
-p.
CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
1
K
I.y
to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
2
4.'k
Y�
ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
3
r
perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
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E D I T E D
TRANS C R I P T
(Insofar as decipherable)
RELATING TO
ARCADIA CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION
JUNE 24, 1992
Ai a
, 14. 1
, 2)5 /1
-p.
CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
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to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
2
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Y�
ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
3
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
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FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
to it, however, another one which is potentially unknown as far as its
impact. They just simply say that they might want to require that
agencies would receive in tax increment only what they've legally
contracted for. In our case, we have bonded indebtedness, that's $330,000
a year. Well, the rest of it is often pay as you go. We pay as we go.
They would sort of take that away. They would simply give us in tax
increment $330,000 because that's contractually established.
•
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FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
4
LOJESKI Hasn't Kent looked at this. . . .
FASCHING You're bringing up a lot of other questions. You say you want to be
guaranteed the extra square feet will be good for another 25 years, and
all those things.
LOJESKI I didn't use the word guarantee. I want to be assured that what we're
talking is going to be usable for the next period of time.
ROSS It's 10 years that I said would be the absolute guarantee that would. . .the
capacity would be guaranteed for that time. Beyond that it's difficult
to tell, the changes that could occur. Certainly, when we do this it would
be a 25-year building. But it could be at capacity in 10 years.
CIRAULO And what might extend that, too, is. . .I understand it's just preliminary
at this point, but I understand the School District is having some
preliminary discussions about some way to access the Library by way of
computer and keep most of the students at the school.
ROSS They already do. They do access the Library by computer, but actually what
that does is tell them what we have so they know that we have it before
they come over. And that's primarily the way it's used now. They
originally wanted a retrieval system, and then they couldn't afford the
people to come and retrieve the items at the time because of their budget.
But they still have access to our collection by computer.
CIRAULO They have that now?
ROSS They have that now.
HARBICHT Well, some comments that I have on this is, one, the question of where the
money is going to come from. I think this is why we have to prioritize
our capital improvements. We have the Capital Improvements Budget, we have
money in it, we have receipts going into it from the Track and the other
monies that we're putting into that. So if we decide that we're going to
build this Library, or build this addition to the Library, the money is
available in the Capital Improvements Fund. That's what the Capital
Improvements Fund is for. And if that takes up most of the money there,
then any other capital improvements that we want, such as an auditorium,
whatever, are just going to have to be put off two or three years until
we build it up to the point where we can do it. That's the way we've
always done it in this City. And I guess I'll express the opinion that,
in my mind, this is the number one priority. And so I would be in favor
of using the Capital Improvements Funds for doing the Library. I guess
the question of how long the Library is going. . .how long this would
last. . .Kent, I'm going to argue with you a little bit on this. I don't
know why it would only last for 10 years. I don't think we foresee any
significant population growth here in Arcadia. As a matter of fact, the
consultants' report that we had visualized almost no growth.
ROSS Well, I didn't say it wouldn't last more than 10 years; I said I couldn't
guarantee it. I could absolutely guarantee that it would certainly have
sufficient space for growth up to 10 years. After that, there are a lot
of things we don't know, as I explained, I think, the last time. . .particul-
ar, say, reference volumes that were only two volumes at one time are now
10, 15, and they've grown by 10 times. But we're still required to have
those. So the same thing, to serve the community in this much space 10
years ago now takes several shelves.
HARBICHT I understand that. I guess I'm thinking in terms of, you know, one of the
things that would have the greatest influence on the size of the Library
needed is the number of people using it. I think the number of people
using it is pretty closely tied to population growth. And so I don't
visualize a huge increase in the number of people using it. In regard to
the reference volumes, that's true and I know that the amount of
information in the world is constantly expanding and we seem to be putting
more of it on our shelves. But it could be, and I think it's very likely,
that 10 or 15 years from now an awful lot of that is going to be on laser
disk and you're not even going to have those volumes. . .you're just going
to pop a laser disk in and read what you want, and print out the part you
7
� t
want. Which means that actually there would be a shrinking demand for
space there. But I guess in my mind. . .Dennis asked the question, how long
would this be good for. I'm fairly convinced that this kind of an
expansion is going to be good for more than 10 years, and I don't think
20 years. . .my guess, and I'm not a library expert, but my guess just based
on what I see in trends is I think we're pretty safe in saying that if we
were to do this it's going to serve the needs of Arcadia for 20 years.
CIRAULO Well, that's a good question to ask. How much extra space do we need to
last us for 25 years?
HARBICHT Because if it was only going to be 10 years, I'd be pretty reluctant to
do this. If I thought 10 years from now we were going to have to tear
everything down and build a new Library, I might say maybe we ought to just
struggle along with what we've got for three more and save up the money
and then build a brand new Library. So, that's my feeling.
FASCHING I feel that it's going to last us for 20, 25 years. The one we have was '
conceivably out of space 20 years ago, and we've been using that for 20
years since then.
•
[End of Tape 1 - Side 1, beginning of Tape 1 - side 2]
HARBICHT . . .in terms of making a decision as to whether or not we should do this
is how much it's going to cost. Now, we have a cost estimate here that
I think Bob Daggett gave us, but we also have the cost estimate for the
new building, which the consultants gave us a year or so ago, two years
ago maybe, and some of their unit costs are particularly high. And so I
don't know if they're high estimators or Bob's a low estimator, or if the
truth lies somewhere in the middle, but we're talking significant
difference in estimated costs.
ROSS I spoke to Bob Daggett on that issue and we discussed it at length. And
using the same criteria that he used for this plan, it was his feeling that
that same building, even nearly 60,000 square feet, would be under
$8,000,000. He gave a number of reasons why he felt that buildings were
overbuilt or built way above cost. And I think he may have mentioned some
of them in the last study session. But that was his feeling, and that's
the way he's based this cost. So if you were comparing this to a new
building, you'd have to use the same criteria, and based on that criteria,
his criteria would be about $7,500,000 for the facility recommended
originally by. . . .
HARBICHT Well, the shell or the whole ball of wax?
ROSS The whole thing, he said. That's what I kept asking him, I said does this
include fees and everything? He said yes.
HARBICHT And interior?
CIRAULO As opposed to this recommended idea, which is about $2.3 million, right?
ROSS Well, this whole thing, though, this whole thing is $3.5 million.
CIRAULO Three point five.
WOOLARD I think what Kent was comparing was that the plan for a new Library was
like, $16,000,000. The same numbers applied from Daggett's figures, the
new Library would only cost $7,500,000 to $8,000,000. So there's quite
a large difference. But a lot of it may have to do with materials and
other details that Bob has a different image of than the other people who
may have been, let's say, going with a Cadillac. I really don't think
you're going to have a handle on it until you actually have an architect
getting down to the more. . . .
CIRAULO Well, it seems to me that t?-at's what we need to do next, is to have an
architect look at. . .we all seem to like this concept. . .have an architect
put pencil to paper and come back to us.
8
FASCHING Well, we have to advertise for an architect.
CIRAULO Well, go out to bid, I guess.
WOOLARD Daggett can still help us a lot if he wants to volunteer.
FASCHING Well, I think he'd be perfectly willing to volunteer to help out on this
thing even though he can't bid on it. But I think he's involved himself
on a volunteer basis with us, which I think is great, and I would certainly
like to keep him involved, to what extent the staff might want to, to
advise us. I personally feel that we probably get ripped off every time
we build something in this City.
MARGETT Well, that's true, Mr. Mayor, and I think that's where Bob Daggett's coming
from. I'm sure that there are architects out there that will build you
a library for $20,000,000. There's no problem doing it. Or ten or eight.
And I think that that's the key in the whole thing. I think what Bob
Daggett wants to be able to do is say, hey, we have $3,000,000, or whatever
we're coming up with, five, or what your budget is, make that thing work
at $5,000,000 and make it look like we're going to spend $20,000,000. And
I think that's what we should be doing.
FASCHING Well, I think we should be taking advantage of this type of expertise and
help that can be furnished to us by one of our commissioners, that's what
they're there for. They're residents that are interested in the City and
the future of it, too. That's why I propose that we settle on this
concept, we're happy with it. We have a budget, we know where the money
is coming from. We tell Daggett and the Librarian this is what we want
to do, and let Daggett put the finishing touches on it so we know, and let
him kind of help us as we want him to in the process of. . . .
MARGETT I think you'll watch your nickels and dimes and have him. . . .
FASCHING . . .soliciting architects and soliciting, when the time comes, to
contractors and everything else.
LOJESKI What's the current status, Jim, of our fund that we could take it away
from.
DALE I just happened to look at that, and I would think that what you're talking
about is probably the Capital Outlay Fund, which has got about $2,032,000,
and the Facility Construction Fund, which has another $3,327,000. So those
two funds are really specifically for. . .
LOJESKI A combination of those things.
HARBICHT A little over $5,000,000.
DALE A little over $5,000,000, right.
FASCHING Well, I would like to do this as best we can so that we could ve some
money left over for some other things that we might want to dL _own the
road.
HARBICHT What did the Community Center cost us, Bill, on a per-square-foot basis,
do you recall?
WOOLARD A little over $200. But because of the materials and detail work that was
a lot higher.
HARBICHT That included the interior, detail, the wood. . . .
WOOLARD Yeah.
HARBICHT And that was a little over $200. And the consultants that we had on the
Library a year or two ago, they're. . . .
ROSS They were over $250, I think. . .$270, I think. You di"ide it by the square
footage, divide $16,000,000 by 59,000.
9
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
FASCHING And then tell him we'd appreciate it, as commissioner, if he'd kind of give
us some advice as we go along on this with some of these outside bids and
everything.
CIRAULO Sounds like a way to go.
HARBICHT Well, I'd like to be more specific than that. I think if we agree on the
concept that we should get going on advertising for proposals for
architect.
LOJESKI I think where Bob can help out is working with the staff in formulating
the RFP.
FASCHING Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
LOJESKI I don't want to see any other extra steps involved. . .I think just go right
into it.
FASCHING Well, that's exactly what I was talking about, using him as a consultant
and working with staff on the deal.
MILLER You want him to be a voluntary consultant on our process?
FASCHING Sure. He's willing to do that. Yeah. So then we'll do that? .
HARBICHT I think that's what we're all saying in different ways.
FASCHING Yeah, right. O.K. Do we have agreement, then, on that?
MARGETT Yeah. What do you need, a motion, Mr. Mayor, or what do you want to do?
CIRAULO I will so move, Mr. Mayor.
MARGETT Second the motion, Mr. Mayor.
MILLER O.K. , that is to go out for RFP's with Mr. Daggett as a volunteering
consultant?
(Several or all Councilmembers answered affirmative.)
HARBICHT Can I just ask a couple of questions for clarification here if, in fact,
this is included in the motion or should be. I think that what we're
approving here is a concept for additions. It seems like we ought to also
be including some cost level that we want to have put into that RFP, it
would be a part of the thing.
CIRAULO Well, we won't know until an architect comes back at us, right?
HARBICHT I think- that, I guess. . . .
CIRAULO You want to give him a ceiling up front, and say not to exceed. . . .
HARBICHT I mean, I think we ought to make some estimate of how much are we willing
to spend? I mean, what if he comes back and he does all these drawings
and everything and we find out it's going to cost us $6,000,000 to add this
stuff, and we say why didn't we build a new building.
MARGETT Well, isn't that part of the process that architects would present to us,
what they think they can do the drawing for?
HARBICHT Dennis was saying, and I agree with him, that we have to say, how much is
this worth to us? At least some general statement of how much we're
willing to spend to do these additions. I mean, I guess I'm saying I would
like to have the architects work within a parameter of approximately three
and a half million dollars, the whole thing. . . .
CIRAULO Three and a half to four million.
Give them a ballpark figure.
11
h
LOJESKI Because if you don't, Bob, what happens? An architect. . .if you give an
architect carte blanche, O.K. , an architect who, let's say, has never done
any work in Arcadia with any public buildings. Doesn't know the City,
starts going through the City and says, hey, look at this town, now this
town's got a lot of dough. Look, they just built this Community Center.
They could have saved and used a veneer on the outside of this build-
ing. . .they used a solid block construction.
HARBICHT Well, they'll start looking at some of the houses.
LOJESKI Yeah. Go inside and you see this fancy paneling. So an architect could
say, well, I'll design it and I'll make it look really great and push my
project. And, like Bob says, you're up to a six, seven, eight million
dollar addition.
HARBICHT I guess I would like to see us state that we would, what I'll suggest is,
that we say we're looking at this kind of a concept with satellite
buildings. We're looking to have this thing in the three to three and a
half million dollar range, including tax and license, the whole thing.
MARGETT The furnishings also?
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING Well, I think that one thing here is that from an architectural standpoint
he's not going to bid the interior and all new fixtures.
HARBICHT No, no. All of the stuff that he has--the electrical, the ceilings, doing
the rotunda, a new roof, all of that stuff--we're looking at the whole
package in the range of three to three and a half million.
FASCHING Well, this is why I'd like to have Daggett redefine his figures.
WOOLARD What we can do is, call for RFP's and include some cost parameters and
bring this whole package back to Council.
HARBICHT And I think we need to tell you what we're looking at.
FASCHING Well, let's have Daggett develop the parameters or the figures first. . . .
HARBICHT He already has.
LOJESKI He already has, what more is he going to give us?
FASCHING Well, I'd like to make sure that he agrees on this.
HARBICHT I guess what I'm saying is that if. . .
FASCHING Who's going to bid on the interiors and all the fixtures?
HARBICHT . . .he gets down to sharpening his pencil and says, gee, this really comes
up to $4,000,000, maybe his recommendation would be to not include Building
A or make some modifications.
ROSS One of the things, there's a contingency factor in there, and when you're
working with the interior of the existing building, there are some
unpredictable costs in there, and he actually did go up to $4,000,000 in
my discussions with him. . .anywhere from $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
CIRAULO My guess would be the range would be $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
ROSS That's what he said.
FASCHING Well. . .because of contingencies?
ROSS Yes. See, we wouldn't know for sure until you have a structural engineer
go in there and look since you have to decide what you're going to do with
the building, upgrades and that sort of thing, because it will have to be
seismically upgraded.
12
k,.
City, a business permit, to do these productions. He said he just can't
afford to be putting that out also.
MARGETT How much is that, George?
FASCHING I think it's $200, as I recall.
HARBICHT How much?
FASCHING Two hundred dollars, I think. So he'd like us to waive the City permit
fee since these are sort of a community-oriented type of thing. Although
he does charge $8. And, what, we're giving him two performances. What
is our rent on the other performance?
ROSS It normally is $25 an hour, but a two-hour minimum. So he'd be paying at
least $50.
FASCHING It sounds like a worthwhile program, and it's a cultural thing for the
children in the Library and adults, an activity at the Library. And I told
him I would take this to the Council and see if we would waive the business
license permit.
MARGETT O.K. , for one performance he's going to get approximately $900, is that
right, if he sells it out?
FASCHING Ninety-nine people, yeah.
MARGETT Nine hundred dollars, a little bit less than $900, is that right?
FASCHING Yeah.
MARGETT O.K. What does he have to pay for the. . .does he have to pay something for
the rights to be able to put on the show?
FASCHING I don't know how he reimburses his actors or actresses.
ROSS They're working for nothing.
MARGETT They're working for nothing?
ROSS He may have to pay for some scenery fees, have somebody build some scenery,
that may be a cost.
CIRAULO Didn't they do this over at Holly Avenue School one time years ago?
ROSS I don't recall. I know Sierra Madre has. . .he said he was involved with
that.
FASCHING He started that, the Sierra Madre Little Theater.
HARBICHT Let me ask you a question. Let's say that some piano teacher is going to
have a recital for her 10 students and so she wants to use our room and
ask the students' parents to come and hear the recital and. . .has that
happened, that kind of thing? Is it used for that kind of thing?
ROSS For recitals? Yeah, we use it for piano recitals all the time.
HARBICHT What do we charge?
ROSS In that same range, $25 an hour, $50 minimum. . .2 hours minimum,
HARBICHT What's our justification for not charging this guy? He's charging
admission.
ROSS Well, any time you waive charges it's based on the decision of the Library
Board. I mean, it's stated in the policy that this can be waived at their
discretion.
MILLER Has the Library Board ruled on this?
16
L_.
WOOLARD Well, in this market it's slim.
CIRAULO I guess you don't know. But it's not a bad idea to make them aware of it,
I think, again.
WOOLARD Can this be used outside of the redevelopment area?
KINNAHAN There's two issues. The first one, the program didn't work before because
it was--Donna, correct me--it was not very much of an incentive program.
As the program went along, they began to offer more and more incentives
and give more and more of a rebate, and towards the end of the program it
got very successful. If I recollect, there was a waiting list when the
program finally went out of business. . .there was about two or three that
were in line.
ASSISTANT There were a few. Actually, we offered the same program all along, but
PLANNING DIR. what happened was I think everybody was just very leery of it, they didn't
DONNA BUTLER really understand the project. When we had the earthquake, that was the
greatest incentive that we probably had, the Whittier earthquake. Because
that's when the first, which was the Steerburger, took advantage of the
funding. And from that point, we went down. . .everybody kind of started
asking questions. We had our consultants go individually to each of the
businesses. But that really was the first push. We had a few people
before that that did some minor painting, a couple of signs, but up until
that time it was strictly two or three businesses.
WOOLARD In that downtown area someone at that time did go store to store to inform
the people of the program, gave handouts, and they tried to provide all
the information they could on the thing.
CIRAULO That was within the redevelopment area, though.
WOOLARD It coincidentally was within that area. Outside the redevelopment area
you couldn't use the CDBG funds.
FASCHING What's the possibility of. . .there must be a firm or people that specialize
in modernizing and updated community business districts where they give
you a concept and a plan and street, and buildings, and overall design,
and this type of thing. I'd like to think that we could have somebody that
would come in and look at our City and say this is what you should do here,
and you should do here, and that, and give us an idea of a concept and a
design to follow in all aspects. . . .
HARBICHT We've already done it.
WOOLARD That's what we had in the downtown. . . .
FASCHING Well, where is it? What did they say? Everybody was going to follow a
general plan?
HARBICHT No. As a result of their plan, we established design criteria downtown,
we've got a list of colors, we have a list of materials that you have to
use if you're redesigning anything in the downtown area. We put in new
street furniture, we put in new crosswalks, we put in all new street trees
down there. All of that was a result of those recommendations. And so
we have a design criteria for downtown.
FASCHING Where did we drop the ball?
HARBICHT What do you mean?
FASCHING Well, why does it look like it does?
HARBICHT These are privately owned businesses. You can't force them to. . . .
FASCHING Well, that's what I mean. This is why we're here, is to. . .how do we get
those businesses and what steps can we take to get this job done? And what
will it take?
WOOLARD The next step we had was offering free money to. . . .
19
CIRAULO Well, what I would like to see, is there any way we can expand it beyond
the formal redevelopment area, say on First Avenue, for instance?
KINNAHAN I reviewed that with the Agency attorney, and basically, when you go
outside a project area boundary, you have to show a direct relationship
and benefit to the project area. So if you were to go across the street
from the project area, you can probably say, well, that's probably a
benefit. You start getting a block away. . . .
CIRAULO Are there any (inaudible) that we could use to help those people. . .any
programs available?
KINNAHAN Not through the Redevelopment Agency. As I understand, not the Block Grant
because. . . .
CIRAULO In any other way?
•
KINNAHAN And the only other ones would be through private financing, through a
bank. . .there is. . .that's about it.
HARBICHT There is another one. We could take City funds and make them available.
KINNAHAN Well, I'm not sure. It might get (inaudible) .
LOJESKI When you look in that book there are some outstanding examples of junk and
something that really looks nicer.
HARBICHT There's been tremendous improvements.
LOJESKI Tremendous improvements. . .but they're all downtown.
HARBICHT O.K. , well I was just responding to your suggestion that we hire a
consultant. We've already done it.
FASCHING But he didn't tell us, though, of maybe one concept to follow in the
design. In other words, let's take those little stores on Huntington
between Santa Anita. and First. They all look different. Is there
something we could do to make that whole front of those stores all kind
of tie in to one design and still maintain their individuality, but we have
something that really looks like something for the whole length of the
block instead of somebody here with one thing and somebody with something
else. It gives a whole feeling to the block, is what I'm thinking of, and
then continue it on down to Second Avenue.
MARGETT You mean a continuity of a theme, George?
FASCHING Continuity of a theme.
HARBICHT Sort of a mini-mall look.
FASCHING Jump in here.
MARGETT Well, I'm listening here. You have the microphone.
FASCHING But that's the thing I'm talking about. I think these individuals, where
this guy puts on his style awning and the other guy puts on his style
awning, and we don't have any continuity down that street. I think that
Monrovia accomplished that. . .
HARBICHT They don't have continuity. . . .
FASCHING No, wait a minute. . .through the use of trees and street design they gave
it a concept.
MARGETT Well, I think they did, Bob, down Myrtle Avenue, I think they did give it
a concept, a turn-of-the-century type of look.
FASCHING But they did it with trees and street, Bob. They didn't do it with
storefronts. Well, storefronts are nice, but they don't all look alike.
20
HARBICHT But we did it with trees, too. And crosswalks, the monument signs, the
center divider.
WOOLARD If it wasn't for racetrack traffic you could do a lot more down there, but
we need two lanes in each direction to. . . .
FASCHING Well, there's got to be something we have to do, because it can't stay
looking like that for the next 10 years. 'It looks horrible. Baldwin
Avenue, down there, that big old sign sticking out there in front of
Hinshaw's with all those places on it, I don't think that has much
attractiveness or warmth to that street. I think the best looking street
we've got is Live Oak, with the way it's laid out with the center divider
and the trees and the grass and everything, to a degree. But my feeling
is we've got to :ome up with a feeling for our City that it all ties
together. And we have some trees down on there. . .I was up on Foothill
today, we've got some big trees that need trimming, we've got some little
trees that don't need trimming, and it just doesn't look very representa-
tive of the way our City should look. Maybe we need more tree trimmers.
Donna, you wanted to say something?
BUTLER Well, the only thing I was going to point out was, in talking about. . .Will-
dan was the company that was hired to take a look at the whole entire area.
And as Bob mentioned, one of the things that they were trying to do to tie
the area together. . .because one of the biggest problems down there is you
don't have similarity of design in buildings. They talked about
things. . .they felt that trying to create a theme in the downtown area just
wasn't really a theme you could tie all the buildings into. So what they
tried to do was, at that point in time, they tried to do it by the use of
colors, tying it in with the different types of paving materials, street
furniture, and so forth. Because that was the biggest problem that they
had. And it was presented to the Council, and the Council at the time went
along with the fact that it's very difficult to create a theme that doesn't
exist. I mean, you've got buildings that are so different in design and
style, so that was the use of the colors, the types of materials in the
downtown area, and that's why we adopted the downtown design overlay, which
set forth the specific colors, signing. . .which we're still trying to
encourage the replacement of older signs, but it still hasn't taken place
everywhere. But that was a major discussion. We've got a plan, which is
approximately yea big, that was done at the time they discussed all the
different treatments, what could be done and what couldn't be done and so
forth. We used,Block Grant funds to finance that study, and it's just that
I think it's important. . .you know, we did try to come up with something,
but I think it was felt that this was the best way to tie everything
together was through the use of landscaping. . . .
FASCHING Then I guess maybe what we're looking at here is how do we complete the
program that we came up with.
CIRAULO Well, I'd like to ask, if we can, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to ask Howard, do
you have any feel for how the merchants might feel, Howard, about this
idea, or have you heard anything?
HOWARD LAREW I've mainly heard, in South Arcadia, Joe, that people are not real excited
(PRES. , CH. OF with the storefronts down there. Downtown along Huntington Drive has
COMMERCE) certainly improved over the years, and I have no feel for individual
businesses as to whether they would be willing to put up their own funds
to do it. I think with the economy the way it is, they're all looking for
help. And I think they'd probably be receptive to some kind of a program.
CIRAULO I know I hear occasionally from the people on First Avenue south of
Huntington. But the problem, Pete tells us, that's not even the original
redevelopment area. So that's a whole different kind of an idea. . .a whole
different ballgame.
HARBICHT I think that, with regard to downtown. . .I'm talking about Huntington Drive
when I say downtown. . .a number of businesses took advantages of the Block
Grant program that we have. A number of others have gone ahead and
upgraded their storefronts. We still have some that are left to do. And
I don't think that a theme is feasible. I don't think it's feasible to
say anybody that redoes their storefront has to make it look like a western
21
ROSS Yes. They did say that it would be. . .they would give this approval
contingent upon his obtaining Workers Compensation insurance.
HARBICHT Well, what are we talking about it for, then?
MILLER I was going to say, it's not on the agenda tonight so you can't act on it.
FASCHING Well, we're not. . .I'm just throwing this out to Council.
MILLER Oh, O.K.
WOOLARD From the Council he's looking at us to waive the City fee.
ROSS You're talking about the work permit, which I have no knowledge of.
HARBICHT You mean the business license fee, is that what he's talking about getting
waived?
LOJESKI He's running a business and collects the admission. Why. . . .
HARBICHT Why would we do that?
FASCHING Well, I think the only reason we would think about it is, number one, it
brings a little cultural theater to the Library for the benefit of the
students and adults. I don't know what his expenses are, but I know he
has rehearsals for these plays and things like that. He's going to put
out $1,250 up front to State Fund, he tells me, to acquire the Workman's
Comp. So his attitude was. . .he's very nice about the whole thing, I mean
he's a resident of the City and says that he just doesn't have a whole lot
of money to be putting out on this type of thing. I don't think the guy's
going to get rich on it, myself, but he'll make a few bucks probably. It's
not a big deal. So, I don't know. . .whichever way you gentlemen want to
go. But you have to look at it, is it bringing something of value to the
City even though he is going to get reimbursed on some level for it, but
is it important to the City and the community.
MARGETT I always go back to precedent. In other words, we let this guy do it,
then. . .you know, I can remember here at that last Council meeting somebody
came in and wanted fees waived for putting in a generator for taking
pictures over at the Arboretum, and we said no. I don't know whether or
not you can all of a sudden say, well, yes, we'll allow the show at the
Library, but we're not going to be able to allow somebody to make a few
nickels putting on a production over at the Arboretum. Nobody's cutting
a fat hog, I don't think. But by the same token, I think we better
establish a policy so that if something down the road comes, you're going
to be consistent.
FASCHING We already have a policy. I think we have to decide each one, if we feel
if it's a benefit to the community, and then make the decision. I don't
happen to feel that the generator situation in the Arboretum, making a
commercial film, is of any benefit to the City. But little kids going to
a play at the Library might be a different situation.
HARBICHT Well, we can't make a decision right. . .though I guess I'm not in favor of
waiving the fee.
FASCHING O.K.
MARGETT I wouldn't be either.
FASCHING O.K. I just wanted to get a feeling out of you gentlemen.
2. BUSINESS O.K. We'll go on to the next item on the agenda. . .the business districts.
DISTRICTS - All right. Then the next item is Redevelopment on the business district.
MAYOR FASCHING Prior to that, I'd like to make one little announcement here, which I think
you're all aware of. There is a conference in San Jose on August 6 and
7 concerning downtown revitalization, Main Street prototypes. And I
intend to go to this. This might be of interest to us down the road
concerning our own business district. So I wanted to remind you of that
17
conference. And we have Mr. Larew from our Chamber of Commerce in the
audience. He is available to us for any item we may want to ask
him, on behalf of the Chamber. And I think the main point of this
discussion on business districts is a general feeling--and correct me if
I'm wrong--that we feel that there needs to be something done with our
business districts. The business district on Huntington Drive, the
business district on First Avenue for what's there, but just revitaliza-
tion. Baldwin Avenue falls into this perspective also, as does Live Oak
Avenue down in South Arcadia. And I think that this has been talked back
and forth in years, but nothing really being accomplished in it when we
look at other cities and what they've done with their business districts.
So, with that I'll open it up to general discussion. Mr. Harbicht.
HARBICHT Well, we've got this memo dated 6/10 on things that have been done, can
be done, and the one thing I see missing from here is this ^rogram that
we've had for redoing the facades of businesses in the downy .in area.
WOOLARD We've put together a book of before and afters. Some of these .11 be done
with a funding program that we had through the Block Grant Program. The
others were done individually.
CIRAULO Do we still have that program available? It was, what, a 50-50 thing, is
that how it worked?
WOOLARD _ It's still possible, but it's questionable as to the value of it at this
point.
HARBICHT How many did we do, or were done, under that program?
WOOLARD We did. . .about 16 or so places got some funds. Some were complete facade
removals and others were just for signs and awnings. So some were major
things and others were minor. The problem is that the amount of funding
that you now have to devote to your person of low-moderate income, that
percentage has increased. So the amount of money that would be available
for this program is substantially reduced. The fact that you have to go
through Mavis Bacon for the contractors and stuff makes it difficult to
find somebody, and the administration costs of monitoring all of their
employees and everything else makes it not a very cost-effective program.
But there are other ways the same types of things can be funded. Loans
through redevelopment agencies rather than just loans for other types of
(inaudible) might be available rather than the Block Grants. They're not
as constrained as the Block Grants were. Maybe it will have some. . . .
KINNAHAN In your package that Bob referred to, number seven refers to information
on a possible agency pilot commercial investor rebate loan program. That
deals exactly with picking up where the CDBG program left off. Where the
Redevelopment Agency could, in the downtown, finance a rehab commercial
loan program, or a grant program, (inaudible) program. We've done some
initial research into programs offered through other cities and other
agencies. We've researched the downtown as to the possible need for such.
The need is there. The program exists in other communities. We have funds
available in Arcadia to create such a program if the Agency wants it, in
this case the Agency. We can certainly come back to you with a clear
program concept where we can attack the small problem like signs. We can
probably create an architectural incentive program where there's two or
three architects who can assist a business. We help to pay for it, to
encourage them to take advantage of our design criteria, and then we can
also provide the rebate loan, the rebate to them to do the work. And it's
being modeled very much on the CDBG program.
CIRAULO Well, I like that whole idea.
HARBICHT Yeah, but we've already done it.
KINNAHAN We have, but there's quite a few more to do. We're not done yet.
CIRAULO There's a lot more to do.
HARBICHT The others didn't move when we offered it before. What's the probability
that they would move if we offered it again?
18
L_.
WOOLARD Well, in this market it's slim.
CIRAULO I guess you don't know. But it's not a bad idea to make them aware of it,
I think, again.
WOOLARD Can this be used outside of the redevelopment area?
KINNAHAN There's two issues. The first one, the program didn't work before because
it was--Donna, correct me--it was not very much of an incentive program.
As the program went along, they began to offer more and more incentives
and give more and more of a rebate, and towards the end of the program it
got very successful. If I recollect, there was a waiting list when the
program finally went out of business. . .there was about two or three that
were in line.
ASSISTANT There were a few. Actually, we offered the same program all along, but
PLANNING DIR. what happened was I think everybody was just very leery of it, they didn't
DONNA BUTLER really understand the project. When we had the earthquake, that was the
greatest incentive that we probably had, the Whittier earthquake. Because
that's when the first, which was the Steerburger, took advantage of the
funding. And from that point, we went down. . .everybody kind of started
asking questions. We had our consultants go individually to each of the
businesses. But that really was the first push. We had a few people
before that that did some minor painting, a couple of signs, but up until
that time it was strictly two or three businesses.
WOOLARD In that downtown area someone at that time did go store to store to inform
the people of the program, gave handouts, and they tried to provide all
the information they could on the thing.
CIRAULO That was within the redevelopment area, though.
WOOLARD It coincidentally was within that area. Outside the redevelopment area
you couldn't use the CDBG funds.
FASCHING What's the possibility of. . .there must be a firm or people that specialize
in modernizing and updated community business districts where they give
you a concept and a plan and street, and buildings, and overall design,
and this type of thing. I'd like to think that we could have somebody that
would come in and look at our City and say this is what you should do here,
and you should do here, and that, and give us an idea of a concept and a
design to follow in all aspects. . . .
HARBICHT We've already done it.
WOOLARD That's what we had in the downtown. . . .
FASCHING Well, where is it? What did they say? Everybody was going to follow a
general plan?
HARBICHT No. As a result of their plan, we established design criteria downtown,
we've got a list of colors, we have a list of materials that you have to
use if you're redesigning anything in the downtown area. We put in new
street furniture, we put in new crosswalks, we put in all new street trees
down there. All of that was a result of those recommendations. And so
we have a design criteria for downtown.
FASCHING Where did we drop the ball?
HARBICHT What do you mean?
FASCHING Well, why does it look like it does?
HARBICHT These are privately owned businesses. You can't force them to. . . .
FASCHING Well, that's what I mean. This is why we're here, is to. . .how do we get
those businesses and what steps can we take to get this job done? And what
will it take?
WOOLARD The next step we had was offering free money to. . . .
19
CIRAULO Well, what I would like to see, is there any way we can expand it beyond
the formal redevelopment area, say on First Avenue, for instance?
KINNAHAN I reviewed that with the Agency attorney, and basically, when you go
outside a project area boundary, you have to show a direct relationship
and benefit to the project area. So if you were to go across the street
from the project area, you can probably say, well, that's probably a
benefit. You start getting a block away. . . .
CIRAULO Are there any (inaudible) that we could use to help those people. . .any
programs available?
KINNAHAN Not through the Redevelopment Agency. As I understand, not the Block Grant
because. . . .
CIRAULO In any other way?
•
KINNAHAN And the only other ones would be through private financing, through a
bank. . .there is. . .that's about it.
HARBICHT There is another one. We could take City funds and make them available.
KINNAHAN Well, I'm not sure. It might get (inaudible) .
LOJESKI When you look in that book there are some outstanding examples of junk and
something that really looks nicer.
HARBICHT There's been tremendous improvements.
LOJESKI Tremendous improvements. . .but they're all downtown.
HARBICHT O.K. , well I was just responding to your suggestion that we hire a
consultant. We've already done it.
FASCHING But he didn't tell us, though, of maybe one concept to follow in the
design. In other words, let's take those little stores on Huntington
between Santa Anita. and First. They all look different. Is there
something we could do to make that whole front of those stores all kind
of tie in to one design and still maintain their individuality, but we have
something that really looks like something for the whole length of the
block instead of somebody here with one thing and somebody with something
else. It gives a whole feeling to the block, is what I'm thinking of, and
then continue it on down to Second Avenue.
MARGETT You mean a continuity of a theme, George?
FASCHING Continuity of a theme.
HARBICHT Sort of a mini-mall look.
FASCHING Jump in here.
MARGETT Well, I'm listening here. You have the microphone.
FASCHING But that's the thing I'm talking about. I think these individuals, where
this guy puts on his style awning and the other guy puts on his style
awning, and we don't have any continuity down that street. I think that
Monrovia accomplished that. . .
HARBICHT They don't have continuity. . . .
FASCHING No, wait a minute. . .through the use of trees and street design they gave
it a concept.
MARGETT Well, I think they did, Bob, down Myrtle Avenue, I think they did give it
a concept, a turn-of-the-century type of look.
FASCHING But they did it with trees and street, Bob. They didn't do it with
storefronts. Well, storefronts are nice, but they don't all look alike.
20
HARBICHT But we did it with trees, too. And crosswalks, the monument signs, the
center divider.
WOOLARD If it wasn't for racetrack traffic you could do a lot more down there, but
we need two lanes in each direction to. . . .
FASCHING Well, there's got to be something we have to do, because it can't stay
looking like that for the next 10 years. 'It looks horrible. Baldwin
Avenue, down there, that big old sign sticking out there in front of
Hinshaw's with all those places on it, I don't think that has much
attractiveness or warmth to that street. I think the best looking street
we've got is Live Oak, with the way it's laid out with the center divider
and the trees and the grass and everything, to a degree. But my feeling
is we've got to :ome up with a feeling for our City that it all ties
together. And we have some trees down on there. . .I was up on Foothill
today, we've got some big trees that need trimming, we've got some little
trees that don't need trimming, and it just doesn't look very representa-
tive of the way our City should look. Maybe we need more tree trimmers.
Donna, you wanted to say something?
BUTLER Well, the only thing I was going to point out was, in talking about. . .Will-
dan was the company that was hired to take a look at the whole entire area.
And as Bob mentioned, one of the things that they were trying to do to tie
the area together. . .because one of the biggest problems down there is you
don't have similarity of design in buildings. They talked about
things. . .they felt that trying to create a theme in the downtown area just
wasn't really a theme you could tie all the buildings into. So what they
tried to do was, at that point in time, they tried to do it by the use of
colors, tying it in with the different types of paving materials, street
furniture, and so forth. Because that was the biggest problem that they
had. And it was presented to the Council, and the Council at the time went
along with the fact that it's very difficult to create a theme that doesn't
exist. I mean, you've got buildings that are so different in design and
style, so that was the use of the colors, the types of materials in the
downtown area, and that's why we adopted the downtown design overlay, which
set forth the specific colors, signing. . .which we're still trying to
encourage the replacement of older signs, but it still hasn't taken place
everywhere. But that was a major discussion. We've got a plan, which is
approximately yea big, that was done at the time they discussed all the
different treatments, what could be done and what couldn't be done and so
forth. We used,Block Grant funds to finance that study, and it's just that
I think it's important. . .you know, we did try to come up with something,
but I think it was felt that this was the best way to tie everything
together was through the use of landscaping. . . .
FASCHING Then I guess maybe what we're looking at here is how do we complete the
program that we came up with.
CIRAULO Well, I'd like to ask, if we can, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to ask Howard, do
you have any feel for how the merchants might feel, Howard, about this
idea, or have you heard anything?
HOWARD LAREW I've mainly heard, in South Arcadia, Joe, that people are not real excited
(PRES. , CH. OF with the storefronts down there. Downtown along Huntington Drive has
COMMERCE) certainly improved over the years, and I have no feel for individual
businesses as to whether they would be willing to put up their own funds
to do it. I think with the economy the way it is, they're all looking for
help. And I think they'd probably be receptive to some kind of a program.
CIRAULO I know I hear occasionally from the people on First Avenue south of
Huntington. But the problem, Pete tells us, that's not even the original
redevelopment area. So that's a whole different kind of an idea. . .a whole
different ballgame.
HARBICHT I think that, with regard to downtown. . .I'm talking about Huntington Drive
when I say downtown. . .a number of businesses took advantages of the Block
Grant program that we have. A number of others have gone ahead and
upgraded their storefronts. We still have some that are left to do. And
I don't think that a theme is feasible. I don't think it's feasible to
say anybody that redoes their storefront has to make it look like a western
21
saloon, or whatever we decide is the theme. I just don't think that's
feasible because we're having a hard enough time just getting the majority
of them to redo their fronts. I mean, it's taken us years. But I think
the best that we can realistically shoot for is to try to get some of those
other ones that are in pretty bad shape to redo their storefronts within
the color and materials guidelines that we have in force down there, which
they would have to use if they do redo it. So the real question is, how
can we get them to do it? And it sounds to me that maybe using some
redevelopment funds and putting a priority on that in that we ask that some
significant amount of staff time be invested in contacting people, saying
the City is willing to put up this much money, or whatever, to help you
do this. And I think the possibility of maybe having two or three
architects who are tuned into the program, and we could say if you'll
contact one of these people, or we'll have one of them contact you, is the
only way we're going to accomplish it. Because we've got all kinds of
absentee owners down there who don't see it. . . .
FASCHING Well, I agree with what you're saying. I think. . .probably a concept we'd
like to see, but I think maybe it might be well for us to concentrate on
what we can do. In other words, what we can do with our streets, what we
can do with our landscaping and our trees, to make it much more desirable.
Then we go. . . .
•
HARBICHT Like what?
FASCHING Well, I don't know, but we can certainly. . . .
HARBICHT We put in all new street trees three or four years ago. . .
FASCHING Well, maybe there's some more we can do, I don't know.
HARBICHT . . .we redid the railroad bridge, we got the center divider, and we put in
crosswalks. I don't know what's left.
FASCHING Well, O.K. It's always good. . .we can still take another look at it from
that standpoint. That's what we can do. What we can't do is come up with
a theme or this other thing. But to try to make available to these
business owners what we can to rehabilitate their storefronts, and if they
don't want to do it then what do we have, as a body, that we can do by
resolution to make them. . .force them to get into a. . . .
HARBICHT Force them to do it?
FASCHING Well, I don't know, maybe condemn their property. . .they're in a
redevelopment area.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, you know, I talked to a realtor, a prominent realtor in town,
and we were talking much in the same vein that the Council is talking right
now. She said that invariably the owners or the tenants that are in these
small stores really don't want anything more to be done on the front of
those stores, because invariably then the landlord wants to raise rents
and they cannot afford rents. . .now this is what she said. She said that
there's nothing that would really induce. . .and what you need on Huntington
Drive, if we're still talking Huntington Drive, is something that would
induce foot traffic on Huntington Drive. There's nobody that wants to park
over in back of Jimmy Chin's building or in front of the post office and
walk across the street and walk up and down Huntington Drive to be able
to buy something. There's just not that inducement. I was thinking just ,
the other day. . .and I don't know whether staff has had any consideration
about this. . .but we've got, apparently, a post office that's going to be
torn down and refurbished. I think there's a ton of foot traffic in front
of that post office. I don't know whether we should not consider
putting. . .
[End of Tape 1 - Side 2, beginning of Tape 2 - Side 1]
. . .stuff money into it and let's get block grants, let's get. . .and so on
and so forth. . .and we might be just trying to chase a dead horse. It might
22
11
very well be that that area has purely lost it's economic use for that
area. It just may not be. . . .
Why?
HARGETT . . .where it is. And that's a natural transition that's taken place.
FASCHING Well, what do you do with it then?
CIRAULO With a lack of parking, that could very well be.
FASCHING What do we do with it?
LOJESKI That's your whole key. The whole key to the situation, George. Look at
the north side versus the south side.
MARGETT You say what do you do with it. . .excuse me, Dennis, I cut you off. I
didn't mean to.
LOJESKI No, I interrupted you. But I'm just saying, look at the north side versus
the south side of the street between First Avenue and Santa Anita. I look
at it every day. The north side has plenty of traffic. Why? Why do the
storefronts look better? Why do you have businesses proliferating on that
side? You've got parking for the customers. The minute you take parking ,
away, such as you have done, or there's a lack of 'it. . .we haven't
done. . .but that's the way the area developed. The businesses are in
shambles on the south side of the street.
MARGETT Well, see, staff will tell you that there's sufficient parking in the area
to be able to take care of both,the north and south sides.
LOJESKI Gockley's is gone because Gockley's, first of all, had two parking spaces
behind their store and people couldn't come in there. They couldn't
function.
FASCHING Gockley's, I think, was a result of being gobbled up by people that. . .all
the wholesale stationery stores.
LOJESKI But that's the value of retail business today. You have to make yourself
available to the customer. If the customer is going to come into a mama
and poppa area, there's got to be incentive. And if you can't park right
there. . .you know, a signal, a better situation for that intersection of
Huntington and First was put in. . .what did it do? It took parking spaces
away on the street. There was no additional parking to the poor businesses
on the west side of the street, and that stationery store went under. In
other words, it was just another thing that happened down there.
FASCHING Then I guess we can throw First Avenue into the same category. Maybe it's
beyond it's, commercial use.
LOJESKI I don't know. It's all in the redevelopment area.
FASCHING I come back to the question, what do we do with it? Just let it sit?
HARGETT No.
FASCHING What?
LOJESKI I think you've given incentives to the people in that area, much more than
we've ever been able to give, than we've ever done in West Arcadia, South
Arcadia, Foothill Boulevard. We haven't gotten into any assistance
programs up in those areas.
MARGETT We can't do everything. In other words, if it's true what you said, that
we have provided all those incentives, City government, local government,
has been able to provide those incentives and we've gone the extra mile
and we've had the staff reports and we've had the consultants go ahead and
look at those areas and still things haven't clicked, then I would say that
it could very well be that we've lost our use. for that land. When you find
condominiums coming right back up to the developments that are all on the
23
south side of Huntington Drive, you're not going to go in there and lay
those waste and build more parking area, I don't think. And I would say
that it may very well be, Mr. Mayor, to be able to. . .and I'm sure that a
feasibility study as to what that area should be may be just what you want
to do.
LOJESKI The Willdan study did that. The Willdan study addressed the south side
of Huntington Drive and said if it's going to remain in the long-range plan
of things a business commercial area, there has to be parking created.
And their recommendation was to take the north side of Alta Street and
devote that to parking. So you've got now developable sites, O.K.? You've
got the availability, hypothetically, of AT&T to come in, let's say, and
build a three-story building. . . .
FASCHING Where?
LOJESKI On Huntington Drive, let's say.
FASCHING Between First and Santa Anita?
LOJESKI Could be. Could be. You've got an anchor on one side which is a bank,
George, O.K.? It's the only decent building, I think, in that whole block.
FASCHING Home Savings?
LOJESKI Sure.
MARGETT And they're short of parking.
LOJESKI Not really.
HARGETT Well, their parking is across the street. . .is that what somebody's going
to do to cash their. . . .
LOJESKI No, but that's my point, O.K.? If you cannot go to a mama and poppa store,
then what's the incentive to go there? You're going to go to a mall,
you're going to go to Monrovia, or wherever is convenient.
MARGETT But what I'm saying, the next step, if we're going to generate parking,
where are you going to generate it? Go in there and lay waste some of
those condominiums that are brand new?
LOJESKI From between First and Second, you're stuck. Between Santa Anita and First
Avenue you're not stuck. By that I'm saying just by the age of the
structures.
HARBICHT Yeah, but you're stuck from a cost standpoint.
LOJESKI Sure. No doubt about it. I'm just saying we have a study that was done.
If I'm wrong Bill, that was one of three studies over the last 25 years,
I think, that's been done. They have all addressed the south side of
Huntington Drive in that very direct (inaudible) .
MARGETT In other words, does that study say that that is a viable economic entity
on the south side of Huntington Drive, we can really make some money there
if we provide parking?
LOJESKI If you have parking.
FASCHING Well, I doubt that very much.
MARGETT So do I.
LOJESKI George, it's undevelopable from a retail standpoint. . . .
FASCHING We already have all this development land out there that we want to develop
anyway. What we want to do is clean up the looks of the business district.
We don't have the parking, they're stuck there. And if we don't clean them
up, we don't have the parking, what are we going to do with them?
24
( )
HARBICHT I think we've got two different things here we're talking about. One is
parking, that's a whole separate issue. And if we want to take that
up. . .there's no question that parking would help the viability of that
area. But the cost of providing that parking is so astronomical that I
don't think that. . . .
FASCHING Plus the cost of relocating all those tenants and the (inaudible) . It's
not even in the ballpark.
HARBICHT The second issue is to say, what can we do to clean up that area, to get
the rest of it looking nice. And I guess I come back to what I said
before, is I think that I would be willing to entertain the idea of using,
maybe, some redevelopment money and putting together a program much like
we had before but maybe with a little less red tape. But basically, what
you're going to be doing when you cut it all away is you're saying to the
owner, "If you'll spend $30,000 fixing up the front of this building, we'll
pay for $15,000 of it." That's what it'comes down to.
FASCHING But you know what? It wouldn't cost him $30,000.
HARBICHT I just use that as an example. I don't know what it would cost.
FASCHING They don't want to spend five grand.
HARBICHT But I specifically reject the idea that we say, "Well, if you won't do it
voluntarily, somehow we're going to make you do it." Because I won't vote
to do that. I don't know if it's possible, but if it was, I wouldn't vote
to do it.
CIRAULO They're all doing so poorly, I just don't think they have the money to. . . .
FASCHING Who's they? Not the property owners, the guys renting the buildings are
doing poorly.
CIRAULO Yeah, the businesses that are there.
FASCHING The guys that own the property paid for it a long time ago.
CIRAULO He doesn't care.
FASCHING It's all lint in his pocket.
CIRAULO I'm talking about the poor little business guy who's there.
FASCHING That's right. So then our City slinks along with these businesses looking
like heck on Huntington Drive. The property owner puts all that paid-off
building money in his pocket. And we can end up with people doing pawn
shops with gates on the front and all that type of stuff.
MARGETT We're getting back to the thesis that I put out on the table, Mr. Mayor.
Maybe you have lost that use of that property.
FASCHING O.K. , then I'll pose this question to you--what are we going to do with
it?
MARGETT O.K. , well, we're going full circle here. If that is viable, if we know
for sure that we can make things click down there by providing Block Grant
funds or similar programs, I would be in favor of that. But there's no
sense in going in there and giving a Block Grant-type program and still
have people worried that their rental rates are going to go up. And we
haven't really generated any of the income or the tax that we can get to
substantiate spending the money.
CIRAULO See, I think they're going to get even less traffic and do less business
once Nordstrom's moves in and the mall has got a whole new thing.
FASCHING I think we should go on to the next subject. . .we'll never come to a. . . .
CIRAULO Well, I know, but what do we do with it?
25
FASCHING Yeah, what do we do with it? That's what we're here for, to decide what
to do with it, not to find out all the economical problems of those guys
selling costumes and everything.
MARGETT I think that a lot of it. . .and we're sitting here trying to make that
decision, Mr. Mayor. But, you know, we've got the Chamber of Commerce and
we've got the owners of the building, and we've also got the tenants of
the building. They should be saying, hey, this is what would be beneficial
for this downtown area. And I don't hear them saying anything.
CIRAULO Well, let me ask, Pete, you attend the Downtown Business Association
meetings occasionally. What do they say, what's the feel, what do you
hear?
KINNAHAN I don't recall that really coming up. It's, probably a question -~at can
be posed to them :o get their input.
LOJESKI I'll give you an answer to that, Joe. Bob and I, as two candidates for
the City Council, attended a meeting with the downtown Arcadia business
merchants. Their key question to all the candidates is what are you going
to do to protect. . .I'll give you an example. . .the guy that owns and
operates Rod's Diner says, "What are you going to do to protect my business
so I can stay in business at the expense of what's going to develop—at the
Ford agency? What is your concept, Mr. Councilman? What are you going
to do so my business doesn't suffer?" That's a tough question to answer.
That's where their concern was. The old, established guy, he'll continue
to operate down there.
FASCHING I don't know. That's an old, established restaurant, Rod's. Well, the
thing here is that we can go over all of these problems to the shop owner,
the retailer, the property owner, but we're not getting to the solving of
the problem. If it looks like hell, how do we make it look better
for. . .and you can't convince me that if everything looks better they're
not going to enjoy more business, with one problem in mind is the parking
on the south side of Huntington. But if you continue to allow these to
exist and continue to deteriorate, and the lower class retailer is getting
in there because the place looks like hell in a period of time, that
doesn't help our City.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, would you suggest that we have a session with representatives
of the downtown owners and the tenants and the Chamber of Commerce and see
what they would think that would be beneficial for them down there?
FASCHING No, I wouldn't.
MARGETT Well, how can we sit here and tell them that this is going to be good for
them?
FASCHING, O.K. , all I'm looking at is this. We're probably looking at maybe eight
or nine property owners involved in this. Any businessman in his right
mind would not tell us that improvements of the business district would
not be beneficial to him. So if I wanted him to come in and tell me how
to handle the property owners and get them to do what they should do to
improve their buildings, that's one thing. But they can't tell us that.
They can only tell us what they consider is a good retailing situation.
And we know what a good retailing situation is. Not a deteriorating
retailing situation. And I think I come back to Bob, we have to have
somebody that goes out and calls on these property owners and convinces
them that it's in the best interest of our City, and them, and their future
to participate in an upgrade of their business front, and try and do that.
MARGETT You know, George, I think that's fine. I just don't know that we're
hitting nails on heads and getting to the root of the problem. Putting
a new storefront and then saying everybody is going to come in here and
buy new watches or whatever this guy is trying to sell over there, I don't
know whether they're going to be able to do that.
FASCHING Well, then, let's blow it up. We'll get rid of it.
26
MARGETT So everybody can walk down or drive down Huntington Drive and say, "This
is beautiful"?
FASCHING You're saying just because. . .I'm not talking about. . .you're saying just
because we say new storefronts, new awnings, and it looks nice, and paint
and everything else, that they're going to sell more watches? I can't
guarantee that, Bob. But I can guarantee it's going to sure make our City
look a lot better.
MARGETT No question about it.
FASCHING That's what I'm interested in.
MARGETT O.K. , but how is this guy going to substantiate the spending of $30,000
or $15,000 or whatever?
FASCHING You don't know. . .Bob, to fix up the storefront on one of those small
buildings, I would estimate would be $3,000, $3,500. Buy a canopy and
paint. Maybe some new facade on it with the split brick or something.
You're not talking $30,000. I do my carwash once a year. I make the whole
thing look different, it doesn't cost me more than $8,000 or $9,000.
CIRAULO You're saying split that cost with them? The City split the cost with. . . .
FASCHING Do we have the money available in Community Block Grant funds?
KINNAHAN Redevelopment funds.
FASCHING Sure. We have to have a program that we're going to go out there and sell
these people.
LOJESKI What about this Business Improvement District? What is that all about?
WOOLARD That's like an ABA, who had formed their own group. And they can be taxed
on their business licenses to put money into their association. They then
sponsor events and do other promotional activities and stuff to encourage
activities, hopefully, spending the money within their district.
CIRAULO I have to agree with everybody else. There is very little that they can
do that's going to encourage more business because there's no parking.
So the business they have now, that's pretty much the business they're
going to get. But what we could do is improve the appearance of the
street, I guess that's what we're talking about, right?
WOOLARD I think you've got a real problem down there. . .I don't want to say real
problem. . .you have a problem in that it's not going to be a retail area.
You can fix up the storefronts to look fantastic, and you're still not
going to get anybody selling anything because that's not where people go
to buy. They go to the malls, they go to the mini malls.
FASCHING Well, not necessarily. They're all open, doing business.
LOJESKI Look what's on the north side, George. You've got. . . .
FASCHING There's vacancies on the north side, too. There's vacancies. Gockley's
has been vacant for a year.
LOJESKI It's been sold.
FASCHING Well, just recently.
HARBICHT Are you saying, if it's moving away from retail, the retail office. . . .
LOJESKI You're moving into offices. . .you've got attorneys on the north side, you've
got a hair dressing salon, which is a destination that women. . . .
FASCHING O.K. , whether it be an attorney's office or hair. . .I don't care if it's
retail. I just want it to look good. I don't care what's in there.
HARBICHT How many want it to look good?
27
MARGETT So everybody can walk down or drive down Huntington Drive and say, "This
is beautiful"?
FASCHING You're saying just because. . .I'm not talking about. . .you're saying just
because we say new storefronts, new awnings, and it looks nice, and paint
and everything else, that they're going to sell more watches? I can't
guarantee that, Bob. But I can guarantee it's going to sure make our City
look a lot better.
MARGETT No question about it.
FASCHING That's what I'm interested in.
MARGETT O.K. , but how is this guy going to substantiate the spending of $30,000
or $15,000 or whatever?
FASCHING You don't know. . .Bob, to fix up the storefront on one of those small
buildings, I would estimate would be $3,000, $3,500. Buy a canopy and
paint. Maybe some new facade on it with the split brick or something.
You're not talking $30,000. I do my carwash once a year. I make the whole
thing look different, it doesn't cost me more than $8,000 or $9,000.
CIRAULO You're saying split that cost with them? The City split the cost with. . . .
FASCHING Do we have the money available in Community Block Grant funds?
KINNAHAN Redevelopment funds.
FASCHING Sure. We have to have a program that we're going to go out there and sell
these people.
LOJESKI What about this Business Improvement District? What is that all about?
WOOLARD That's like an ABA, who had formed their own group. And they can be taxed
on their business licenses to put money into their association. They then
sponsor events and do other promotional activities and stuff to encourage
activities, hopefully, spending the money within their district.
CIRAULO I have to agree with everybody else. There is very little that they can
do that's going to encourage more business because there's no parking.
So the business they have now, that's pretty much the business they're
going to get. But what we could do is improve the appearance of the
street, I guess that's what we're talking about, right?
WOOLARD I think you've got a real problem down there. . .I don't want to say real
problem. . .you have a problem in that it's not going to be a retail area.
You can fix up the storefronts to look fantastic, and you're still not
going to get anybody selling anything because that's not where people go
to buy. They go to the malls, they go to the mini malls.
FASCHING Well, not necessarily. They're all open, doing business.
LOJESKI Look what's on the north side, George. You've got. . . .
FASCHING There's vacancies on the north side, too. There's vacancies. Gockley's
has been vacant for a year.
LOJESKI It's been sold.
FASCHING Well, just recently.
HARBICHT Are you saying, if it's moving away from retail, the retail office. . . .
LOJESKI You're moving into offices. . .you've got attorneys on the north side, you've
got a hair dressing salon, which is a destination that women. . . .
FASCHING O.K. , whether it be an attorney's office or hair. . .I don't care if it's
retail. I just want it to look good. I don't care what's in there.
HARBICHT How many want it to look good?
27
MARGETT So everybody can walk down or drive down Huntington Drive and say, "This
is beautiful"?
FASCHING You're saying just because. . .I'm not talking about. . .you're saying just
because we say new storefronts, new awnings, and it looks nice, and paint
and everything else, that they're going to sell more watches? I can't
guarantee that, Bob. But I can guarantee it's going to sure make our City
look a lot better.
MARGETT No question about it.
FASCHING That's what I'm interested in.
MARGETT O.K. , but how is this guy going to substantiate the spending of $30,000
or $15,000 or whatever?
FASCHING You don't know. . .Bob, to fix up the storefront on one of those small
buildings, I would estimate would be $3,000, $3,500. Buy a canopy and
paint. Maybe some new facade on it with the split brick or something.
You're not talking $30,000. I do my carwash once a year. I make the whole
thing look different, it doesn't cost me more than $8,000 or $9,000.
CIRAULO You're saying split that cost with them? The City split the cost with. . . .
FASCHING Do we have the money available in Community Block Grant funds?
KINNAHAN Redevelopment funds.
FASCHING Sure. We have to have a program that we're going to go out there and sell
these people.
LOJESKI What about this Business Improvement District? What is that all about?
WOOLARD That's like an ABA, who had formed their own group. And they can be taxed
on their business licenses to put money into their association. They then
sponsor events and do other promotional activities and stuff to encourage
activities, hopefully, spending the money within their district.
CIRAULO I have to agree with everybody else. There is very little that they can
do that's going to encourage more business because there's no parking.
So the business they have now, that's pretty much the business they're
going to get. But what we could do is improve the appearance of the
street, I guess that's what we're talking about, right?
WOOLARD I think you've got a real problem down there. . .I don't want to say real
problem. . .you have a problem in that it's not going to be a retail area.
You can fix up the storefronts to look fantastic, and you're still not
going to get anybody selling anything because that's not where people go
to buy. They go to the malls, they go to the mini malls.
FASCHING Well, not necessarily. They're all open, doing business.
LOJESKI Look what's on the north side, George. You've got. . . .
FASCHING There's vacancies on the north side, too. There's vacancies. Gockley's
has been vacant for a year.
LOJESKI It's been sold.
FASCHING Well, just recently.
HARBICHT Are you saying, if it's moving away from retail, the retail office. . . .
LOJESKI You're moving into offices. . .you've got attorneys on the north side, you've
got a hair dressing salon, which is a destination that women. . . .
FASCHING O.K. , whether it be an attorney's office or hair. . .I don't care if it's
retail. I just want it to look good. I don't care what's in there.
HARBICHT How many want it to look good?
27
- )
.y
Springfield, Illinois, that, I tell you. . .he went in there and was checking
with the Chamber of Commerce and the Redevelopment Agency that they have
there. And I tell you, they would do anything to get this fellow to move
from Irwindale back there to be able to manufacture furniture com-
ponents. . .labor market, less labor market, less OSHA, less everything, to
be able to do that. And I think that you're going to be competing, we're
going to be competing with that type of marketing.
FASCHING Plus, his family could buy a 3,000-square-foot house for $135,000.
MARGETT Right, the housing. . .right, George, that's another aspect of it.
LOJESKI Is our current attitude, I would hope, is an extremely positive one, to
actually sell the attributes of Arcadia. . .not sell the City down the road
or the river, or give things away, give the ranch away. . .but I mean to sell
the attributes to the development world and the possibilities of those
particular sites. They may be bastardized sites as far as looking like
arrowheads and things like that, but talk about the quality of the
community, freeway accessibility, even from a signage standpoint, O.K.?
And from that standpoint maybe we should be in mode to somewhat relax our
standards and that sort of thing. So if it was a viable business that was
backing up to the freeway that they could have some exposure so people
would know where they were.
HARBICHT Well, we have a fantastic brochure that does just that.
LOJESKI Has it ever been published or put out to anybody?
KINNAHAN Mm-hm. It was mailed out. . .we've used this extensively. As a matter of
fact, we're coming to the end of the number. . . .
MARGETT But, you know, the other thing that concerns me, gentlemen, about Arcadia
is the demographics that we have to offer a person coming in. You know,
we don't have a lot of people per square mile in Arcadia. We're fortunate
enough to have a lot of open space. We don't have that number, that sheer
number that people like from the standpoint of retail. And I thank the
Good Lord that Nordstrom's went by that and are coming in. And I think
that one of the problems that we have on Huntington Drive, Mr. Mayor, that
we talked about earlier is the sheer demographics. We don't have
demographics that make things economically viable to some of our areas.
HARBICHT Not for retail, but most of our interest has been in the area of office,
and we've put in the hotels, which have been a godsend, and that's probably
the way that's going to go. And I think the fact that they've got this
freeze on in Pasadena is going to help us. When things pick up and people
get back into the development game, they can't go into Pasadena, where's
the next logical place? They're going to look at Arcadia, because we're
close to Pasadena, which is one of the reasons that our hotels are
successful. I mean, I think we're positioned, when things turn around,
to market this property successfully.
FASCHING Well, now we come right back to marketing strategy. That's what I think
we're mainly concerned with, is how to market our property in the most
strategic ways and aggressive ways, and what markets can we go to to make
known the availability of this property to corporate headquarters that may
want to relocate from West L.A. or downtown Los Angeles. . . .
LOJESKI Or from elsewhere in the United States, maybe they want to come to Southern
California. I think we've got some prime locations.
FASCHING Well, we do. We have some nice properties. And if we get one going, they
all could possibly.
LOJESKI There's still a little, I think, of the stigma, too, in the development
world. And I heard this directly from an individual by the name of Blaine
Fadder. Blaine has had an interest in developing Huntington Drive at the
intersection of Huntington and Myrtle and has done a phenomenal job over
there, with corporate headquarters and things like that. And the stigma
being, "I won't bring a project to Arcadia because it's just too tough to
work with the people over there." Now, whatever that means. I certainly
hope that's not the situation and that we are more of in the "Hey, let's
37
CIRAULO Boy, that would turn into a projects. . .Arcadia Downtown Projects.
FRIEDMANN Then they say, "How much do you want." We say, "Well, the Agency had an
offer for light industrial in such-and-such a year for this amount of
money," and they turn that down. And then a few years later there was a
guy who was interested who wanted to pay $25 a square foot, and the
developer had no developing experience, but it seemed like the Agency was
more receptive to $25 a square foot. So it's hard to. . .they try to get
this information from us, so it would be helpful to have some direction
in the marketing.
HARBICHT Well, what was the per-square-foot selling price of the South Side Project
going to be?
KINNAHAN It was going to average around nineteen and a half.
HARBICHT The Agency had gone ahead with that and were willing to do the deal, so
at least that gives you some sort of a ballpark thing. On the north side
we're probably talking about a little less, because it doesn't have the
Huntington frontage. I mean, assuming we get the kind of development that
we want.
LOJESKI One thing, of course, if we could all put a crystal ball on it and say,
you know, we're going, to have a light rail, something or other, coming
through the City. You're going to talk about a dramatic change, I think,
particularly (inaudible) sales tax revenue. You put a station down in the
downtown area, you know, you're going to see an industrial-zoned area
perhaps changed to a commercial area.
FASCHING I'd like to comment on that. At the present time there. . .as of, say,
months ago, this whole corridor situation is under study trying to get the
extension of Pasadena to Azusa rather than terminating in East Pasadena.
And so there's been a lot of work done on that. At the present time there
is developing a real possibility of extending the Pasadena line to as far
as Arcadia, which would mean a terminus at the First and Santa Clara
property. The ridership falls off tremendously once you get past Arcadia,
in terms of ridership. The Transportation Coalition, as well as the
Transportation Commission of the San Gabriel Valley Association of Cities,
along with Duarte and Monrovia, not including Irwindale and Azusa because
they're really not players. But, the theory being that if we can get it
to Irwindale there's a lot of property there that could be the end of the
line. My concept in the past of a terminus of the light rail would
encompass. . .I had visions of storage yards for light rail cars and a
roundhouse or something of that nature. I thought this would be the deal.
But actually a terminus, I find, is only no more than probably a station
with the exception of it needs much more parking. So you don't have a
large facility. . .you have a station but that's the.end of the line. Now
they go the other way. But because it is the end of the line you have
to. . .and in this instance it's almost 1,000-car parking area for the
terminus. Pasadena does not want the terminus in East Pasadena. They have
to build a parking structure that they don't want to build, and they would
like to see it out of East Pasadena. There was a press conference last
Thursday where they made an announcement by LACTC, and there were other
officials there in front of the station in Pasadena, and David and I were
ther. As to the acquisition of the right-of-way from Santa Fe, it's
completed now, so it's a go situation with the Pasadena line. In
discussion with some of those people there from Pasadena, they're anxious
to get that thing beyond Pasadena because they don't want it to stop there,
they have a lot of problems in acquiring this land and building this
parking structure. And so, it's being supported also to take it further
than Pasadena by Tri-cities, which is Burbank and Glendale, because it
would be beneficial to them if we get it extended out here also, isn't that
correct? ' So, anyway, there is a strong possibility, and also Santa Anita
is fighting very hard for this, to get it as far as Arcadia. At this
point, whereas a year ago I would say to get it here would be in the year
2004, I think we have a 50-50 chance of getting it here at the same time
they do the Pasadena line. Which means it could be here in 1997.
HARBICHT Well, what are we going to do about parking?
39
4"
work together on this thing, let's try to see this thing happen and come
together." Again, not to give the farm away.
HARBICHT Well, I tell you, there's two ways to look at that. One is to say we're
too tough, we're hard to work with and so we're putting some people off.
The other side of the coin is we have high standards, we adhere to them,
we don't give up on parking, we have design review for all commercial
areas, and that is why Arcadia is what Arcadia is. So, you know, it
depends on what side of the fence you're on. I don't know if I want to
relax our standards. I certainly would hope that we would have a
cooperative attitude and try to work with people as much as possible, but
at the same time I think that. . . . I guess I keep going back to, you know,
60 or 70 years ago you had El Monte and Arcadia, not much difference
between the two, same climate, same soil and everything, and there were
some governmental decisions that were made in the two places. And today
Arcadia is what Arcadia is, and El Monto• is what El Monte is. And it came
about because of standards that were set in the two communities. And I
think that it's important that we maintain certain standards. There's
always the tendency to say, "Gee, we really would like to market this piece
of property or get somebody in so maybe we ought to back off a little bit."
I think we ought to be real careful about that.
FASCHING I don't think. . .you weren't referring to standards. I don't think we'd
want to relax our standards.
LOJESKI Absolutely not.
HARBICHT But a lot of people that say we're hard to work with are saying we're hard
to work with for just that reason. Because there's a lot of communities
that will say, "Well, yeah, we require five parking spaces per thousand
but we could probably work it out for four."
FASCHING Well, we can see evidence of relaxing standards on parking, particularly.
You can't do that.
WOOLARD We did that with Gribble, actually, by joint uses and stuff there the
parking was modified. And on the Johnson property north of the water
tanks. They got modifications for signs so they were visible from the
' freeway.
HARBICHT Higher, yeah. I think those are reasonable. . .working with people. I think
there were some valid reasons for. . . .
FASCHING I don't think we want to reduce our standards. Did you have something to
say?
FRIEDMANN We have signs on the properties right now. . .the signs have been there for
a while and I still get some calls sometimes. And the first question, of
course, everybody asks is, "How much is it?" And staff doesn't have the
answer to that question. And then they ask, "Well, what do you want to
see on this property?" And so then we kind of go back to the direction
we had from the Council before, and that was, well, we most likely would
like to see 70 percent of office projects. And then they say, "Well, thank
you very much." You can't get loans for office buildings.
CIRAULO What kind of projects are they offering?
FRIEDMANN Well, they're not offering really anything that. . .they're offering like,
a church, there are churches that call, and batting cages. . . .
MARGETT No, we don't want that.
FRIEDMANN Housing, a lot of people want to put housing on that site, on the four
acres.
CIRAULO Residents?
FRIEDMANN Right. Apartments, condos, low-mod housing. Housing was one of the
biggest things that we had interest in.
38
C)
HARBICHT Too bad.
CIRAULO Yeah, it is too bad.
MARGETT Yeah, that is too bad.
LOJESKI What about Dick Cordano? He went with the band a couple of times to
Australia.
MARGETT I have Beth Wells. And I tell you, she's knocking herself out for the
community.
LOJESKI What about Lois Patnou?
MARGETT She's very good. I would go Lois Patnou also.
HARBICHT I'd like to see Patnou and Cordano myself.
FASCHING Who do you want?
LOJESKI Those are the two names I had down for the commission.
FASCHING Who do you want, Bob?
MARGETT I thought Beth Wells and Patnou.
FASCHING Wait a minute, here, let's see. Who did you have?
HARBICHT I had Patnou. . . .
CIRAULO Patnou is good.
FASCHING And who was the other?
MARGETT Beth Wells.
HARBICHT Cordano.
FASCHING I would like to see Lois Patnou and Beth Wells.
MARGETT Have we got a consensus?
CIRAULO Yeah, I would go with that.
FASCHING With what?
CIRAULO Beth Wells and Patnou.
FASCHING O.K. , make the motion.
CIRAULO I will move that we have Beth Wells and Lois Patnou on the Sister City
Commission.
MARGETT Second the motion.
FASCHING Do you want a roll call on this? Any objections? So ordered.
HARBICHT Move to reappoint Pat Loechner and Janie Steckenrider.
CIRAULO Second.
FASCHING Move to appoint by Councilman Harbicht, seconded by, was it you, Bob?
MARGETT Well, I will. I didn't, but I will.
HARBICHT It was Joe, wasn't it?
CIRAULO Yeah.
45
t.
LOJESKI I'm making a motion to appoint Peggy Leatherman for the Assistance League
slot. She's a great lady.
MARGETT Second the motion.
FASCHING So ordered. Any objections?
HARBICHT I had Miller written down here. I have to review. . .
MARGETT Owen Miller?
HARBICHT I guess. I just made notes on here of who. . . .
LOJESKI Did Lois Patnou want to be appointed to the Sister City Commission or was
it the Senior Citizen Commission? Or did it make a difference?
MARGETT I don't think it made any difference.
FASCHING It might to her. Oh, it didn't make any difference? O.K.
LOJESKI Well, what I'm suggesting is, if you had that desire, you could put Lois
on the Senior Citizen Commission and you could put Richard Cordano, since
there was a couple of us that liked Dick's abilities, on the Sister City
Commission.
FASCHING O.K. , want to switch it?
CIRAULO He's put in an application for all the commissions, so it doesn't make any
difference to him apparently.
FASCHING Cordano?
CIRAULO Yeah.
FASCHING You don't want to put him on Senior Citizens?
LOJESKI No, I was just looking at his experience with the band. He has been so
instrumental and he knows so many of those people with the band coming
back this winter.
FASCHING All right. Make a motion, then, to remove Lois Patnou from the Sister
City Commission, put Dick Cordano on that commission, and to appoint Lois
Patnou to the Senior Citizens Commission.
HARBICHT How about Louise Gelber? We can't overlook her.
FASCHING She's running for office.
(Laughter)
CIRAULO We've got one more for Senior Citizens.
FASCHING No, we already put Lois Patnou on there.
MARGETT Patnou and Leatherman.
CIRAULO On Senior Citizens? Yeah Leatherman and Patnou, . O.K.
FASCHING And we put Dick Cordano and Beth Wells on Sister City. Do you have a
motion on that? O.K. , it was so moved.
5. MEASURE A
ARGUMENT -
CITY CHARTER
AMD. (9-15-92
SPEC. ELEC. ) -
HARBICHT Mr. Mayor, on the Finalization of Arguments. . . .
FASCHING Oh, excuse me, I skipped that. I see it.
46
,
4
MILLER All right, will you all be around the next couple of days so we can just
get it out to you and have you sign it?
MARGETT Sure. Or do you want us to drop in?
MILLER I'll figure it out tomorrow, whatever is easiest for you.
6. MATTERS FROM I have a couple of items that came up sort of at the last minute. One,
STAFF regarding the desire by the Personnel Board to tour the redevelopment
PERSONNEL BD. project area. They have no direct connection with this particular
(TOUR REDEV. function, but it's something we can do if the Council would like us to
PROJ. AREA) - undertake that activity.
WOOLARD
FASCHING I'd like to comment on that. They made this request a couple of times.
It's no big deal for us to do that, so I would recommend we just go ahead
and let staff handle that for them.
HARBICHT Why do they want to do this?
FASCHING I don't know, but it's been a controversy for a year, as you well know.
And if they want to drive around. . . .
MARGETT It's kind of an academic exercise, isn't it?
HARBICHT What does it have to do with their function as a personnel board? Nothing
whatsoever.
MARGETT Who's the liaison to Personnel?
LOJESKI Me.
MARGETT What did they say when they made the request?
LOJESKI I read it when it was given to us. They said nothing at their meeting.
Well, they periodically would go through and get a tour of the Police
Station, the Finance Department. They've done it in the City Clerk's
office at one time, the Fire Department.
HARBICHT I think those things are relevant because they're touring someone's
workplace and it may have some influence on some later decision they might
make. Touring the redevelopment area, I don't know how that's at all
relevant to the Personnel Board's responsibility.
FASCHING Well, let me ask Bill. How long would it take you to tour them, about 20
minutes? Ten?
WOOLARD Well, we'd recommend about an hour.
FASCHING Well, how could you take an hour to tour the redevelopment area?
HARBICHT Well, if they want to just look at it, they could get in their cars and
look at it.
KINNAHAN We'd stop, we'd talk, we'd go on. We'd stop, we'd talk, we'd go on.
There would be a little briefing before we left about the history of
redevelopment and. . . .
FASCHING Well, let me ask you this. If we had a group of citizens that came in and
wanted us to do this for them, what would you say?
MARGETT Fine. I would say, yeah, do it.
FASCHING Well, then, let's do it and get it over with and get it out of our hair.
It's been a bugaboo for a year.
HARBICHT Can't you get a Dial-a-Ride van and put some staff members in it and go
out with them?
48
f '9
-4
FASCHING One staff member,. Pete Kinnahan. That's all. It won't take long, and
they're satisfied, they're happy and they're concerned, and a little bit
more about redevelopment. I don't think it's relevant. But I think we
treat them like we treat any group that would come in and ask for a tour
of our redevelopment area. I don't think we'd turn them down. Next item.
WOOLARD We had a memo from Neal Johnson about the Boy Scout troop from Arcadia
(BOY SCOUT that's going to Indian National Jamboree and is requesting to use the City
NATIONAL seal over the entrance to their camp.
JAMBOREE -
CITY SEAL)
HARBICHT No problem at all with that.
CIRAULO Sounds good.
FASCHING So ordered.
LOJESKI Bill, do we have any extra City pins? We've given out in the past those
little pins.
HARBICHT If we don't have any around here, I've got some at home.
LOJESKI I mean, 20 scouts. . .I think this would be a real appropriate situation to
make sure each one has one.
WOOLARD If we do, we can always make them available to them.
HARBICHT Yeah, we ought to give them to them. I know that when we've had Sister
City trips that we've given them a whole bunch of pins and they'd pass
them out and everything. It's a great PR gimmick.
WOOLARD If we've got them, we'll include that. We would like to get your blue
binders back, those of you who haven't returned them for the budget, so
we can fill them up for next year. The easiest thing to do is to bring
it to the next Council meeting and we can get it at that time. Pete has
an item regarding the housing request from another city who is exploring
the idea of developing low, moderate. . . .
LOJESKI I'm absolutely against it.
CIRAULO I am, too.
LOJESKI I can't believe, Pete, that you're asking me to give money to El Segundo.
MARGETT Oh, no.
CIRAULO Forget it.
LOJESKI I don't even want to discuss it.
WOOLARD Legally, you can't do it right now, but that concept.
HARBICHT Pretty good idea. Hidden Hills will give them theirs.
FASCHING Any other matters from staff? Kinnahan.
KINNAHAN Just a real quickie, because it's late. One, I handed out tonight an item
NW COR. SITE - on the Northwest Corner site for a possible rail station. You may want
RAIL STATION to read the comments of the Corby Engineering staff guy on that. Lastly,
REDEVELOPMENT on redevelopment financing, Jim talked earlier about the impact on City
FINANCING - financing and the State crisis. The State has now come up with a coupled
(STATE CRISIS) new wrinkles. It appears one of the big ones may have gone away--that is
where the state would say to the school districts, "We're not going to
back you up for what goes to the Redevelopment Agency any more so you'll
be on your own." Which would mean that the School District would then
come to the Redevelopment Agency for its share of the tax increment. In
Arcadia it's about 25 percent of our T.I. That appears to be. . .it's not
on the current list, it's somehow gone away, which is good. They've added
49
to it, however, another one which is potentially unknown as far as its
impact. They just simply say that they might want to require that
agencies would receive in tax increment only what they've legally
contracted for. In our case, we have bonded indebtedness, that's $330,000
a year. Well, the rest of it is often pay as you go. We pay as we go.
They would sort of take that away. They would simply give us in tax
increment $330,000 because that's contractually established.
•
50
t.
LOJESKI I'm making a motion to appoint Peggy Leatherman for the Assistance League
slot. She's a great lady.
MARGETT Second the motion.
FASCHING So ordered. Any objections?
HARBICHT I had Miller written down here. I have to review. . .
MARGETT Owen Miller?
HARBICHT I guess. I just made notes on here of who. . . .
LOJESKI Did Lois Patnou want to be appointed to the Sister City Commission or was
it the Senior Citizen Commission? Or did it make a difference?
MARGETT I don't think it made any difference.
FASCHING It might to her. Oh, it didn't make any difference? O.K.
LOJESKI Well, what I'm suggesting is, if you had that desire, you could put Lois
on the Senior Citizen Commission and you could put Richard Cordano, since
there was a couple of us that liked Dick's abilities, on the Sister City
Commission.
FASCHING O.K. , want to switch it?
CIRAULO He's put in an application for all the commissions, so it doesn't make any
difference to him apparently.
FASCHING Cordano?
CIRAULO Yeah.
FASCHING You don't want to put him on Senior Citizens?
LOJESKI No, I was just looking at his experience with the band. He has been so
instrumental and he knows so many of those people with the band coming
back this winter.
FASCHING All right. Make a motion, then, to remove Lois Patnou from the Sister
City Commission, put Dick Cordano on that commission, and to appoint Lois
Patnou to the Senior Citizens Commission.
HARBICHT How about Louise Gelber? We can't overlook her.
FASCHING She's running for office.
(Laughter)
CIRAULO We've got one more for Senior Citizens.
FASCHING No, we already put Lois Patnou on there.
MARGETT Patnou and Leatherman.
CIRAULO On Senior Citizens? Yeah Leatherman and Patnou, . O.K.
FASCHING And we put Dick Cordano and Beth Wells on Sister City. Do you have a
motion on that? O.K. , it was so moved.
5. MEASURE A
ARGUMENT -
CITY CHARTER
AMD. (9-15-92
SPEC. ELEC. ) -
HARBICHT Mr. Mayor, on the Finalization of Arguments. . . .
FASCHING Oh, excuse me, I skipped that. I see it.
46
t.
LOJESKI I'm making a motion to appoint Peggy Leatherman for the Assistance League
slot. She's a great lady.
MARGETT Second the motion.
FASCHING So ordered. Any objections?
HARBICHT I had Miller written down here. I have to review. . .
MARGETT Owen Miller?
HARBICHT I guess. I just made notes on here of who. . . .
LOJESKI Did Lois Patnou want to be appointed to the Sister City Commission or was
it the Senior Citizen Commission? Or did it make a difference?
MARGETT I don't think it made any difference.
FASCHING It might to her. Oh, it didn't make any difference? O.K.
LOJESKI Well, what I'm suggesting is, if you had that desire, you could put Lois
on the Senior Citizen Commission and you could put Richard Cordano, since
there was a couple of us that liked Dick's abilities, on the Sister City
Commission.
FASCHING O.K. , want to switch it?
CIRAULO He's put in an application for all the commissions, so it doesn't make any
difference to him apparently.
FASCHING Cordano?
CIRAULO Yeah.
FASCHING You don't want to put him on Senior Citizens?
LOJESKI No, I was just looking at his experience with the band. He has been so
instrumental and he knows so many of those people with the band coming
back this winter.
FASCHING All right. Make a motion, then, to remove Lois Patnou from the Sister
City Commission, put Dick Cordano on that commission, and to appoint Lois
Patnou to the Senior Citizens Commission.
HARBICHT How about Louise Gelber? We can't overlook her.
FASCHING She's running for office.
(Laughter)
CIRAULO We've got one more for Senior Citizens.
FASCHING No, we already put Lois Patnou on there.
MARGETT Patnou and Leatherman.
CIRAULO On Senior Citizens? Yeah Leatherman and Patnou, . O.K.
FASCHING And we put Dick Cordano and Beth Wells on Sister City. Do you have a
motion on that? O.K. , it was so moved.
5. MEASURE A
ARGUMENT -
CITY CHARTER
AMD. (9-15-92
SPEC. ELEC. ) -
HARBICHT Mr. Mayor, on the Finalization of Arguments. . . .
FASCHING Oh, excuse me, I skipped that. I see it.
46
-p.
CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
1
K
I.y
to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
2
4.'k
Y�
ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
5
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E D I T E D
TRANS C R I P T
(Insofar as decipherable)
RELATING TO
ARCADIA CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION
JUNE 24, 1992
Ai a
, 14. 1
, 2)5 /1
-p.
CITY COUNCIL STUDY SESSION -JUNE 24, 1992
1. LIBRARY We'll now go to the Library discussion. You all received a memo from Bob
ADDITION/ Daggett, who really worked on this thing in outlining it. And you've all
CONCEPT PLAN - had time to study it over. And, Kent, why don't you give us any
MAYOR FASCHING latest thoughts that you have on this, all right?
CITY LIBRARIAN O.K. We had, of course, one board meeting after this and their feelings
KENT ROSS are still pretty much the same, that they would certainly support an
improvement in the Library facility, but they just wanted to make the
Council aware of what their feelings were on any of the shortcomings that
would come with dealing with the existing building. And that's where it
stands right now. But they certainly would support this particular plan,
if this is what Council wished.
•
CIRAULO But they had some misgivings about it?
ROSS They had some reservations. . .those have been expressed to you at that
previous study session. . .those would remain the same.
MARGETT Could you refresh my memory what their concerns were. The ones .that I
remember were the satellite. . . .
ROSS O.K. The first one was the. . .the two rooms that, if you can see it, look
up there on the wall, would be the ones on the far left there. They're
separate rooms with access only at a small point there, which creates a
security problem. There's no way of supervising those rooms other than
cameras. It's a potential problem. . .there is possibility. In actuality,
it may never be a problem. But the potential for a problem is there. In
fact, I even called the Police Department on this to ask them what their
thoughts were on it, and I talked 7,D Captain Hinig. And he felt the way
I did that, yes, he said that's a potential problem, that you would have
to put some kind of surveillance cameras in there. That's probably their
principal reservation.
MARGETT Do you have any security problems over there now, Kent?
ROSS Well, yeah, just the general ones any public building would have. It's
a public building, so anybody can come in there and just loiter.
CIRAULO Aren't there enough people walking in and around there now, staff people,
that they could, you know, every half hour just take a walk through there,
make sure it's O.K.?
ROSS That's a possibility. As I say, I don't know how much that would prevent
it or not. Right now, as you can see from. . .I have the two maps there that
I handed out, and you can see on the old one how the aisles face into the
public areas so that the public can see right down those aisles at the
present time. Once you separate rooms, of course, then there's no view
from any public area at all. It would be a completely concealed area.
As I say, it may be no problem and it might be, there's just a potential
for it. Right now, the kind of problems that we have are people who come
in the Library and, say, either behave in an antisocial way on occasion,
and patrons will report this to us and we'll have to check it out. It's
not often, but several times a year we will have to call the Police
Department to remove somebody or check on them or follow them, or whatever.
If you have these kinds of rooms, there's the possibility that this could
increase. I don't know. It's just something that the Board is concerned
about. But, as I say, it's not something that would preclude the
implementation of this plan entirely. . .we certainly. . . .
CIRAULO I think that's always a potential problem. I would hate to see it be the
fly in the ointment for the whole project.
HARBICHT Well, I think the fact that you devoted the whole thing to shelves may tend
to minimize that as opposed to having reading areas in there where a few
kids in there acting up. . .you know, there's no place to sit, at least on
this drawing that I have, and I think that would help. I recognize the
potential for problems, but I think it's, frankly, a minor concern relative
1
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to the benefit we'd get from the additional space and everything. On this
Friends Book Store. . . .
ROSS Yeah, that was. . .I can see it right over there, Building A.
HARBICHT I realize the plan was drawn and now you're fitting things into it. But
we have no Friends Book Store now, right?
ROSS No. All the libraries I know that operate a Friends Book Store earn more
money operating a regular book store and gift shop than they do in these
once-a-year sales. We do all right in our once-a-year sale, but it's a
tremendous effort and it's getting more difficult for the Friends to mount
it. It's hard to find volunteers that will put in that much time and work,
because it is a tremendous amount of work. But the libraries that have
a space for a Friends Book Store do quite well.
HARBICHT In other words, they're selling the same stuff that they sell at their
once-a-year sale.
ROSS Right, but it's all year long. And the prices, of course, are a little
higher on them because they can sit there a little longer. On the once-
a-year book sale the prices are quite low, because you have to get rid of
them in one to two days. But these, you can take a better quality of books
and keep them for a longer period and sell them.
HARBICHT' What kind of money would you estimate that we would get from the Friends
Book Store?
ROSS I'm trying to guess from other libraries, but some libraries have claimed
$15,000 to $20,000. On our book sale we get about $8,000 to $10,000.
Which is good for a one- to two-day book sale. But they say that you can
get 50 percent more, that's what I've been told. It certainly could vary
from city to city, but I haven't heard anything to the contrary from people
that have had them. In fact, I know. . .although Beverly Hills is never any
city to compare anything to, but they do have a Friends Book Store that's
not very large, it was built into their new facility, and they wish that
they had one that were larger because it does so well.
HARBICHT I guess I'm just thinking about it from an investment standpoint. You've
got a 1,500-square-foot building there. . .and I think that this is an
underestimate, these estimates here, but using $125 a foot, you'd come up
to, what, $170,000 just for the shell. And then by the time we do the
tenant improvements and everything, we're probably up to a couple hundred
thousand anyway. And then get $15,000 back on that, that's not really that
great a return. What I'm saying is that we'd be better off to take the
$200,000 and put it in the bank, and if we earn 7 percent on the money we
net out the same as having a Friends Book Store plus we still have the
once-a-year sale. If the question before us was should we build a free-
standing building for the Friends to have a book store, I think that my
answer would be yes.
ROSS That was one of the uses for it. It was also going to be used. . .we had
to, take down a lot of our display area to use for expansion. At one time
we had all the Sister City materials that I think are now in City Hall.
And we had to take all that material out because there was no room for
displaying anything. . A lot of our display space is gone. It was also
considered to be used for that, too. So it would be a separate display.
MARGETT Do you think you'd get any repercussions from some of the local book
stores?
ROSS I asked other places about that, but I've never heard it. We don't
have. . .at least I'm not aware of, around here, that there are that many
used book stores.
HARBICHT These are primarily used books.
MARGETT Oh, used, O.K. Not new. Would you ever consider selling new books there?
2
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Y�
ROSS That's a different kind of business, because then you'd have to buy brand
new books. See, we have a ready supply of inventory of used books. If
you start selling new books, then you'd be going into direct competition
and trying to undercut local vendors.
FASCHING What I would like to offer would be my idea on this, and just throw that
out. I think that we're looking at something that could be a very feasible
plan for the restoration and addition and enhancement of this library
facility. I think that Commissioner Daggett has done a great job and
service to the City by furnishing us the plans and the consultation that
he has in this expansion project. Two things that I have is that it's
unfortunate, but I know that we're now approaching, at some time in the
near future, of spending some money to get this thing moving and find out
where we actually stand. I hate to think that just because Mr. Daggett
is on the Commission that he couldn't bid on this. Mr. Miller, is that
cut and dry that he can't bid to do a job?
MILLER Mr. Daggett actually called me to express his knowledge of that
prohibition, because he would not want to get himself in trouble with. . . .
FASCHING But he, then, also expressed to me the opinion that, yes, he would be
legally in a position to bid.
•
MILLER Well, under Government Code Section 1090 he is prohibited. But if you want
to get an opinion from the FPPC, I would strongly advise it. Because if
it's deemed to be in violation of the law, the entire contract is nullified
and Mr. Daggett is guilty of a felony, and anybody else involved
(inaudible) . I've had experience with this Code section.
FASCHING All right. Well, anyway, that's an unfortunate situation. However, I do
feel that Daggett would be willing, and I think that if we agree that this
is a concept and a plan we want to go ahead with, I think that he would
be willing, without spending time drawing and that type of thing, he'd be
willing as a Commissioner to certainly advise us and give us his thoughts
on how we should proceed with some of this so that we don't jump in. . . .
The way I see it is that if we agree that we like this, then we ask
Daggett to say, well, we all like it, would you talk to the Library a
little more and kind of finalize that this is what we should do. And I
know he has expressed his opinion that we don't need to hire high-priced
consultants in the library field to do an expansion to our Library that
might have some (inaudible) . But I just don't want to say, O.K. , we like
it, let's hire library consultants and bring them in and sign a contract
for $50,000 or $100,000. I'd like to pursue it a little more with the
volunteerism of Bob Daggett. And then we finally hone it down to, yes,
it's ready to roll. And then maybe he can tell us what his thoughts are
on how we should proceed or who we should proceed with, whether it be
contractors that could bid or architects that then could come in, but all
in the interest of saving us some money on the deal rather than paying over
the top.
CIRAULO I'd like to talk a little bit more about the financing if we can. I'm
wondering if it wouldn't be more prudent at this time for us to temporarily
postpone this idea, based upon what's happening with the State until we
find out for sure what's going to happen there.
FASCHING Good thought. I can only say that if we're still talking and looking at
the concept, and Mr. Daggett is still putting some finishing touches on
his original work more than 90 days down the road, so we're not putting
anything. . . . At least we can have him come back and say, hey, this thing
is finalized, now you gentlemen should go ahead and do this. At that time
we would know that we're going to have to spend some money and make a
commitment to the project. But I don't think we're anywhere near ready
to do that as of now. But I think what we wanted to decide on tonight was
the concept, the design, and that it would work, and this is the way that
we would proceed. But it's going to be a while before we get down to
making a commitment for expenditures.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, I kind of like the concept. I tell you, even if we get into
a budget crunch, which if we were going to get into a budget crunch we're
not going_ to be (inaudible) regardless where it is, I'm sure. But as I
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perceive that design, you know, you could phase that. Those little
satellite rooms that. you've got--you've got one, two, three--you could
build one of them, or the next year build another one, and pace yourself.
FASCHING Well, I think that's right, but I've found in anything I've ever built that
I was always sorry I didn't do it all at once, because it cost me a ton
to come back and add on the next time and the next time and the next time.
MARGETT Well, that might be.
•
FASCHING But we are also talking here, when we ascertained that there would be some
money that we could use for things of this nature with a price tag of
whatever it was and the price tag on the auditorium, that we could have
funds available that we could fund those with. We are faced with this
thing on the part of Sacramento which could, in the first year as it stands
as now, cost us half of a million dollars and next year $700,000. I think
those are things that we'll wait and see what happens, but I don't think
it should stop our progress on hold until we determine if we can still
plan. If we can't go ahead with our plans, then we'll stop. But let's
go ahead, like we say, we're still in a position to do so, because these
things need to be. . . .
CIRAULO Does any part of the plan involve renovating the main building, or- is it
just the satellite parts?
FASCHING The whole building. . .everything.
WOOLARD Inside, the lighting, the shelving arrangements, the offices, the roof of
the whole building.
CIRAULO And the roof, and the dome repaired.
ROSS The dome, yeah.
LOJESKI I've just got some general comments to make. First of all, I don't quite
understand your comment about the consultant. I don't even know why a
consultant would actually come into play in this thing. . . .
FASCHING Well, this has been proposed by the Library.
LOJESKI Well, but I mean, if the Council said, "We like this concept of the modular
corners." Then go out and just go out for a request for proposal from the
architectural entities, let them come back, if it's a go we set a budget
of a certain amount of money on what we feel should be spent on this. They
come back conceptually with it. We look, we interview, we talk, we make
a decision. That's basically the way it would go in my opinion. I don't
see where there'd be a consultant some place in between. . . .
FASCHING Well, the only consultant I was referring to would be Daggett. He could
kind of lead us in the directions he thought would be best for us to go.
He is an architect and he knows builders. And I think Daggett's concern
is that we don't hire somebody that specializes in libraries, because we
don't need somebody in this construction that specializes in libraries.
LOJESKI I think if you give him some parameters to deal with--one, this is the
concept we want and this is the budget we want to put it into--you're
pretty much. . .aren't you doing that anyway? Well, anyway, that's just an
open comment about that.
HARBICHT Well, let me comment on it. I agree with Dennis on this thing. It seems
to me that's the step-by-step approach. I mean, if we go hire an
architect, which I think we have to do. . .we can't just go with the
builders, you've got to have. . . .
FASCHING No, I meant an architect.
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING We have to go to bid on that.
4
HARBICHT Yeah. I'm not sure what Daggett would do. He's done with his work, which
is to conceptualize this thing, and if we decide that's what we want to
do. . . .
CIRAULO Do we need him to define it any more, or does that have to be an
architect's job?
LOJESKI (Inaudible) definition, because actually, and who puts the pencil on the
paper and says, you know, I think it ought to have this roof line, or this
type of material on the roof, or this type of siding, and it blends in this
way, that way, whatever the case may be. I'm really grateful that Bob has
thrown together a concept that I think becomes a workable concept. And .
I think that's wonderful. I would personally like to see the man have the
abilities of bidding on the architectural (inaudible) , but I understand
what the City attorney is saying. So, again, that was just a comment as
far as what I perceive as the following steps to go through on a situation
like this.
FASCHING Well, see, we're perceiving the following steps, but why not. . .Daggett has
volunteered that if we approve this concept that he will give us some
suggestions on the steps to proceed to save us as much money as possible.
That's the way I interpret Bob's remarks. But I know we're going to have
to go to bid on an architect. But if we're all sure here tonight that this
is it, call in an architect, give him this drawing, and off we go.
LOJESKI Yeah, but you just don't call an architect. You go out for a, like, a
request for a proposal, whatever the thing may be. It's just like when
the City Council determined we wished to pursue the building of a Community
Center. O.K. , conceptually we had all kinds of numbers and ideas and room
sizes and everything. But they were concepts, and this is what we did.
We went out to the development world, or the architectural world and said,
hey, let's go out for a request for proposals. There was maybe 15
responses. The staff looked at projects that they had done. Then staff
came back. . .I think we interviewed five or six entities. We as a Council
went and actually looked at facilities that each of these had designed and
built and then made a decision from there, which, to me, that's the typical
routine that you go through with a situation like this. Again, it's the
Council giving direction as this is what we want in concept and this is
the amount of money we wish to spend on that concept. Now, designing
world, developing world, building world, get in it. . . .
FASCHING The only thing I thought was that, architecturally, Daggett is on the
Commission and volunteered his time. If he wanted to volunteer to help
us put this out to architects for bid. . .and the requirements and requests
were what we wanted. . .furnish that time, I was willing to take advantage
of it. If we want to eliminate him, then we'll eliminate him.
LOJESKI No, no. I'm not interested in eliminating somebody who wants to give of
their time. I just don't want to see him get put in the ringer, you know,
as Mike was explaining.
FASCHING Well, he's not going to have any financial interest.
LOJESKI O.K. Let me go on to another point, because I think we're maybe talking
on the same wavelength. Somebody just mentioned auditorium and somebody
mentioned, you know, we're talking about the Library here. Well, I've got
to tell you something personally, as I'm sitting here and as I'm speaking,
if I had a choice between those two facilities, I've got to tell you, I'd
rather put my dollar at this time into the Library in light of what's going
to happen, I think, in Sacramento.
HARBICHT I agree with that.
FASCHING Well, I don't think we have any intention of discussing the auditorium
until the end of this year. We put that on hold. This we can go ahead
with.
LOJESKI Again, I just heard somebody mention auditorium.
5
1 - TTh
1
FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
to it, however, another one which is potentially unknown as far as its
impact. They just simply say that they might want to require that
agencies would receive in tax increment only what they've legally
contracted for. In our case, we have bonded indebtedness, that's $330,000
a year. Well, the rest of it is often pay as you go. We pay as we go.
They would sort of take that away. They would simply give us in tax
increment $330,000 because that's contractually established.
•
50
1 - TTh
1
FASCHING Well, I brought up the auditorium because it's conceivable, if things
remain as is, and what's the future prospects are for us, that we would
be in a position to fund a Library and an auditorium if they told us
somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000,000 or $7,000,000.
LOJESKI Two key questions, I feel, in the whole thing, in the whole process of
discussion, number one, how much extra space do we need at the Library to
make the building functional for at least 25 years? I can't give that
answer; I think we have to lean on the Librarian, we have to lean on our
Library Board to give us those numbers. And if they tell me that going
from a 30,000-square-foot building to a 45,800-square-foot building will
accomplish that, then I've got to believe, I think, those numbers. The
other thing is, can we add that extra space without incurring unreasonable
costs or debts to the citizens of this community?
FASCHING What do you mean by debts?
LOJESKI Let's assume all of a sudden true numbers come in and we don't have monies
that we can beg, borrow, from some other funds, and we might have to go
out and ask the taxpayers to assist in this.
FASCHING I don't think we're in a position to do that.
LOJESKI Well, I'm just throwing that out, O.K. , because you can go overboard on
things like this, too. You know, you can create something that you want
to have this as a functional facility and you end up with a Taj Mahal.
CIRAULO I don't think that I personally would be interested in going out to the
citizens and ask for anything in the way of money.
LOJESKI I would not either, O.K. And again, I think the answer, somewhat, to that
question also revolves around what's going to happen in Sacramento. But
I see those as the two big issues. Nothing was said to this point, I
think, about any use of the basement. The building does have a complete
basement, is that correct?
ROSS Yes. It's use is limited just by the fact of its access. You can only
allow so many people down there at a time.
CIRAULO Are there things that are on the main floor that could be put down there
to make room on the main floor then? •
ROSS Well, not a whole lot. It is excellent for storage. That's one nice thing
about the current building is that we certainly don't lack for storage
space. The Friends occupy a large part of it now for their book sale.
CIRAULO What about all that air conditioning you had in that back room that was. . . .
ROSS Oh, that's upstairs.
CIRAULO Oh, that's on the second floor.
LOJESKI Another comment I make is. . .Bob made the comment, I believe, that this
thing hypothetically could be phased, too. And if we find that. . . .
WOOLARD I'm not sure it can. You could phase the Friends part, because that's a
separate use and a separate function. But if you look at the floor plan
that Kent provided, it's really kind of all tied in together. . .it looks
kind of an all or nothing.,. . .
LOJESKI All right, but I'll stick on my two comments, here.
FASCHING Well, coming back to the one comment is that. . .I agree with all your
comments. . .but this is why, you know, you said you want to make sure of
this and this and this is why. I said as long as Mr. Daggett is willing
to confer with Ross over the next, say, 30 days and then come back to us,
and they say, hey, this is the concept that will work. . .it's all right with
him, it's all right with. . .then we can go and start to consider spending
our money.
6
4
LOJESKI Hasn't Kent looked at this. . . .
FASCHING You're bringing up a lot of other questions. You say you want to be
guaranteed the extra square feet will be good for another 25 years, and
all those things.
LOJESKI I didn't use the word guarantee. I want to be assured that what we're
talking is going to be usable for the next period of time.
ROSS It's 10 years that I said would be the absolute guarantee that would. . .the
capacity would be guaranteed for that time. Beyond that it's difficult
to tell, the changes that could occur. Certainly, when we do this it would
be a 25-year building. But it could be at capacity in 10 years.
CIRAULO And what might extend that, too, is. . .I understand it's just preliminary
at this point, but I understand the School District is having some
preliminary discussions about some way to access the Library by way of
computer and keep most of the students at the school.
ROSS They already do. They do access the Library by computer, but actually what
that does is tell them what we have so they know that we have it before
they come over. And that's primarily the way it's used now. They
originally wanted a retrieval system, and then they couldn't afford the
people to come and retrieve the items at the time because of their budget.
But they still have access to our collection by computer.
CIRAULO They have that now?
ROSS They have that now.
HARBICHT Well, some comments that I have on this is, one, the question of where the
money is going to come from. I think this is why we have to prioritize
our capital improvements. We have the Capital Improvements Budget, we have
money in it, we have receipts going into it from the Track and the other
monies that we're putting into that. So if we decide that we're going to
build this Library, or build this addition to the Library, the money is
available in the Capital Improvements Fund. That's what the Capital
Improvements Fund is for. And if that takes up most of the money there,
then any other capital improvements that we want, such as an auditorium,
whatever, are just going to have to be put off two or three years until
we build it up to the point where we can do it. That's the way we've
always done it in this City. And I guess I'll express the opinion that,
in my mind, this is the number one priority. And so I would be in favor
of using the Capital Improvements Funds for doing the Library. I guess
the question of how long the Library is going. . .how long this would
last. . .Kent, I'm going to argue with you a little bit on this. I don't
know why it would only last for 10 years. I don't think we foresee any
significant population growth here in Arcadia. As a matter of fact, the
consultants' report that we had visualized almost no growth.
ROSS Well, I didn't say it wouldn't last more than 10 years; I said I couldn't
guarantee it. I could absolutely guarantee that it would certainly have
sufficient space for growth up to 10 years. After that, there are a lot
of things we don't know, as I explained, I think, the last time. . .particul-
ar, say, reference volumes that were only two volumes at one time are now
10, 15, and they've grown by 10 times. But we're still required to have
those. So the same thing, to serve the community in this much space 10
years ago now takes several shelves.
HARBICHT I understand that. I guess I'm thinking in terms of, you know, one of the
things that would have the greatest influence on the size of the Library
needed is the number of people using it. I think the number of people
using it is pretty closely tied to population growth. And so I don't
visualize a huge increase in the number of people using it. In regard to
the reference volumes, that's true and I know that the amount of
information in the world is constantly expanding and we seem to be putting
more of it on our shelves. But it could be, and I think it's very likely,
that 10 or 15 years from now an awful lot of that is going to be on laser
disk and you're not even going to have those volumes. . .you're just going
to pop a laser disk in and read what you want, and print out the part you
7
� t
want. Which means that actually there would be a shrinking demand for
space there. But I guess in my mind. . .Dennis asked the question, how long
would this be good for. I'm fairly convinced that this kind of an
expansion is going to be good for more than 10 years, and I don't think
20 years. . .my guess, and I'm not a library expert, but my guess just based
on what I see in trends is I think we're pretty safe in saying that if we
were to do this it's going to serve the needs of Arcadia for 20 years.
CIRAULO Well, that's a good question to ask. How much extra space do we need to
last us for 25 years?
HARBICHT Because if it was only going to be 10 years, I'd be pretty reluctant to
do this. If I thought 10 years from now we were going to have to tear
everything down and build a new Library, I might say maybe we ought to just
struggle along with what we've got for three more and save up the money
and then build a brand new Library. So, that's my feeling.
FASCHING I feel that it's going to last us for 20, 25 years. The one we have was '
conceivably out of space 20 years ago, and we've been using that for 20
years since then.
•
[End of Tape 1 - Side 1, beginning of Tape 1 - side 2]
HARBICHT . . .in terms of making a decision as to whether or not we should do this
is how much it's going to cost. Now, we have a cost estimate here that
I think Bob Daggett gave us, but we also have the cost estimate for the
new building, which the consultants gave us a year or so ago, two years
ago maybe, and some of their unit costs are particularly high. And so I
don't know if they're high estimators or Bob's a low estimator, or if the
truth lies somewhere in the middle, but we're talking significant
difference in estimated costs.
ROSS I spoke to Bob Daggett on that issue and we discussed it at length. And
using the same criteria that he used for this plan, it was his feeling that
that same building, even nearly 60,000 square feet, would be under
$8,000,000. He gave a number of reasons why he felt that buildings were
overbuilt or built way above cost. And I think he may have mentioned some
of them in the last study session. But that was his feeling, and that's
the way he's based this cost. So if you were comparing this to a new
building, you'd have to use the same criteria, and based on that criteria,
his criteria would be about $7,500,000 for the facility recommended
originally by. . . .
HARBICHT Well, the shell or the whole ball of wax?
ROSS The whole thing, he said. That's what I kept asking him, I said does this
include fees and everything? He said yes.
HARBICHT And interior?
CIRAULO As opposed to this recommended idea, which is about $2.3 million, right?
ROSS Well, this whole thing, though, this whole thing is $3.5 million.
CIRAULO Three point five.
WOOLARD I think what Kent was comparing was that the plan for a new Library was
like, $16,000,000. The same numbers applied from Daggett's figures, the
new Library would only cost $7,500,000 to $8,000,000. So there's quite
a large difference. But a lot of it may have to do with materials and
other details that Bob has a different image of than the other people who
may have been, let's say, going with a Cadillac. I really don't think
you're going to have a handle on it until you actually have an architect
getting down to the more. . . .
CIRAULO Well, it seems to me that t?-at's what we need to do next, is to have an
architect look at. . .we all seem to like this concept. . .have an architect
put pencil to paper and come back to us.
8
FASCHING Well, we have to advertise for an architect.
CIRAULO Well, go out to bid, I guess.
WOOLARD Daggett can still help us a lot if he wants to volunteer.
FASCHING Well, I think he'd be perfectly willing to volunteer to help out on this
thing even though he can't bid on it. But I think he's involved himself
on a volunteer basis with us, which I think is great, and I would certainly
like to keep him involved, to what extent the staff might want to, to
advise us. I personally feel that we probably get ripped off every time
we build something in this City.
MARGETT Well, that's true, Mr. Mayor, and I think that's where Bob Daggett's coming
from. I'm sure that there are architects out there that will build you
a library for $20,000,000. There's no problem doing it. Or ten or eight.
And I think that that's the key in the whole thing. I think what Bob
Daggett wants to be able to do is say, hey, we have $3,000,000, or whatever
we're coming up with, five, or what your budget is, make that thing work
at $5,000,000 and make it look like we're going to spend $20,000,000. And
I think that's what we should be doing.
FASCHING Well, I think we should be taking advantage of this type of expertise and
help that can be furnished to us by one of our commissioners, that's what
they're there for. They're residents that are interested in the City and
the future of it, too. That's why I propose that we settle on this
concept, we're happy with it. We have a budget, we know where the money
is coming from. We tell Daggett and the Librarian this is what we want
to do, and let Daggett put the finishing touches on it so we know, and let
him kind of help us as we want him to in the process of. . . .
MARGETT I think you'll watch your nickels and dimes and have him. . . .
FASCHING . . .soliciting architects and soliciting, when the time comes, to
contractors and everything else.
LOJESKI What's the current status, Jim, of our fund that we could take it away
from.
DALE I just happened to look at that, and I would think that what you're talking
about is probably the Capital Outlay Fund, which has got about $2,032,000,
and the Facility Construction Fund, which has another $3,327,000. So those
two funds are really specifically for. . .
LOJESKI A combination of those things.
HARBICHT A little over $5,000,000.
DALE A little over $5,000,000, right.
FASCHING Well, I would like to do this as best we can so that we could ve some
money left over for some other things that we might want to dL _own the
road.
HARBICHT What did the Community Center cost us, Bill, on a per-square-foot basis,
do you recall?
WOOLARD A little over $200. But because of the materials and detail work that was
a lot higher.
HARBICHT That included the interior, detail, the wood. . . .
WOOLARD Yeah.
HARBICHT And that was a little over $200. And the consultants that we had on the
Library a year or two ago, they're. . . .
ROSS They were over $250, I think. . .$270, I think. You di"ide it by the square
footage, divide $16,000,000 by 59,000.
9
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
HARBICHT Of course, that included all the furniture and fixtures and everything.
ROSS Furniture and fixtures, landscaping.
HARBICHT So he's talking $125 just for the shell.
FASCHING I don't think we'd have any plumbing in this, would we?
CIRAULO No, it's hard to compare.
WOOLARD We have some plumbing for. . . .
FASCHING Overhead?
WOOLARD Getting the handicapped. . . .
FASCHING But that wouldn't be in the additional portion, that would be in the
existing.
WOOLARD In the existing. . .
HARBICHT That's part of the job.
WOOLARD Yeah.
FASCHING But I don't think it would be as much as building the Community Center.
HARBICHT Well, I mean, based on those numbers, maybe the $125 isn't that far out
of line. See, what I'm afraid of is that you've got two vastly different
estimates here, and that's why I'm asking these questions, to try to get
a sense of is this one reasonable or is the other one reasonable.
WOOLARD Part of it. . .we may be able to save money here in doing the same thing
we're doing with the fire station, when we go to the architect and agree
upon the fees you're going to pay him, it's not dependent upon the cost
of construction. So there's no intent for him to do it.
FASCHING That's why I think a guy like Daggett on our Planning Commission could tell
us if we're getting shafted or if we're not getting shafted. That's what
I'd like to know. And I think he'd do that on a volunteer basis.
MARGETT I think that he could probably also appraise the materials that are being
used. Sometimes you may want to spend a little bit more to get some
frills. And other times something more modest in cost will do the job just
as well as the very expensive things.
HARBICHT Well one of the things is that with this. . .you know, at the. Community
Center we went with some nice materials partly because of the low
maintenance having that brick on the outside and partly because it sits
there in a very prominent place and we wanted a nice building. But the
Library. . .I mean, I'm talking about, you've got a cement slab building
here, and so I assume that's a relatively inexpensive kind of sides to have
on a building and I wouldn't want to put used brick on the new parts. I
mean, I think we want something that's--I hate to say it--consistent with
the old, or at least, you know, compatible with the old, which is going
to be lower cost.
FASCHING Can we finalize this by then saying that we are in agreement on this
expansion, we are in agreement, basic agreement, on the type of facility.
Go to Daggett, tell him that the Council has agreed on that. Ask him if
he would please finalize with the Librarian and give us some ideas on going
out to bid on the thing.
MARGETT Set the criteria for the. . . .
FASCHING Set the criteria for us.
MARGETT For the architect?
10
FASCHING And then tell him we'd appreciate it, as commissioner, if he'd kind of give
us some advice as we go along on this with some of these outside bids and
everything.
CIRAULO Sounds like a way to go.
HARBICHT Well, I'd like to be more specific than that. I think if we agree on the
concept that we should get going on advertising for proposals for
architect.
LOJESKI I think where Bob can help out is working with the staff in formulating
the RFP.
FASCHING Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
LOJESKI I don't want to see any other extra steps involved. . .I think just go right
into it.
FASCHING Well, that's exactly what I was talking about, using him as a consultant
and working with staff on the deal.
MILLER You want him to be a voluntary consultant on our process?
FASCHING Sure. He's willing to do that. Yeah. So then we'll do that? .
HARBICHT I think that's what we're all saying in different ways.
FASCHING Yeah, right. O.K. Do we have agreement, then, on that?
MARGETT Yeah. What do you need, a motion, Mr. Mayor, or what do you want to do?
CIRAULO I will so move, Mr. Mayor.
MARGETT Second the motion, Mr. Mayor.
MILLER O.K. , that is to go out for RFP's with Mr. Daggett as a volunteering
consultant?
(Several or all Councilmembers answered affirmative.)
HARBICHT Can I just ask a couple of questions for clarification here if, in fact,
this is included in the motion or should be. I think that what we're
approving here is a concept for additions. It seems like we ought to also
be including some cost level that we want to have put into that RFP, it
would be a part of the thing.
CIRAULO Well, we won't know until an architect comes back at us, right?
HARBICHT I think- that, I guess. . . .
CIRAULO You want to give him a ceiling up front, and say not to exceed. . . .
HARBICHT I mean, I think we ought to make some estimate of how much are we willing
to spend? I mean, what if he comes back and he does all these drawings
and everything and we find out it's going to cost us $6,000,000 to add this
stuff, and we say why didn't we build a new building.
MARGETT Well, isn't that part of the process that architects would present to us,
what they think they can do the drawing for?
HARBICHT Dennis was saying, and I agree with him, that we have to say, how much is
this worth to us? At least some general statement of how much we're
willing to spend to do these additions. I mean, I guess I'm saying I would
like to have the architects work within a parameter of approximately three
and a half million dollars, the whole thing. . . .
CIRAULO Three and a half to four million.
Give them a ballpark figure.
11
h
LOJESKI Because if you don't, Bob, what happens? An architect. . .if you give an
architect carte blanche, O.K. , an architect who, let's say, has never done
any work in Arcadia with any public buildings. Doesn't know the City,
starts going through the City and says, hey, look at this town, now this
town's got a lot of dough. Look, they just built this Community Center.
They could have saved and used a veneer on the outside of this build-
ing. . .they used a solid block construction.
HARBICHT Well, they'll start looking at some of the houses.
LOJESKI Yeah. Go inside and you see this fancy paneling. So an architect could
say, well, I'll design it and I'll make it look really great and push my
project. And, like Bob says, you're up to a six, seven, eight million
dollar addition.
HARBICHT I guess I would like to see us state that we would, what I'll suggest is,
that we say we're looking at this kind of a concept with satellite
buildings. We're looking to have this thing in the three to three and a
half million dollar range, including tax and license, the whole thing.
MARGETT The furnishings also?
HARBICHT Yeah.
FASCHING Well, I think that one thing here is that from an architectural standpoint
he's not going to bid the interior and all new fixtures.
HARBICHT No, no. All of the stuff that he has--the electrical, the ceilings, doing
the rotunda, a new roof, all of that stuff--we're looking at the whole
package in the range of three to three and a half million.
FASCHING Well, this is why I'd like to have Daggett redefine his figures.
WOOLARD What we can do is, call for RFP's and include some cost parameters and
bring this whole package back to Council.
HARBICHT And I think we need to tell you what we're looking at.
FASCHING Well, let's have Daggett develop the parameters or the figures first. . . .
HARBICHT He already has.
LOJESKI He already has, what more is he going to give us?
FASCHING Well, I'd like to make sure that he agrees on this.
HARBICHT I guess what I'm saying is that if. . .
FASCHING Who's going to bid on the interiors and all the fixtures?
HARBICHT . . .he gets down to sharpening his pencil and says, gee, this really comes
up to $4,000,000, maybe his recommendation would be to not include Building
A or make some modifications.
ROSS One of the things, there's a contingency factor in there, and when you're
working with the interior of the existing building, there are some
unpredictable costs in there, and he actually did go up to $4,000,000 in
my discussions with him. . .anywhere from $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
CIRAULO My guess would be the range would be $3,500,000 to $4,000,000.
ROSS That's what he said.
FASCHING Well. . .because of contingencies?
ROSS Yes. See, we wouldn't know for sure until you have a structural engineer
go in there and look since you have to decide what you're going to do with
the building, upgrades and that sort of thing, because it will have to be
seismically upgraded.
12
k,.
City, a business permit, to do these productions. He said he just can't
afford to be putting that out also.
MARGETT How much is that, George?
FASCHING I think it's $200, as I recall.
HARBICHT How much?
FASCHING Two hundred dollars, I think. So he'd like us to waive the City permit
fee since these are sort of a community-oriented type of thing. Although
he does charge $8. And, what, we're giving him two performances. What
is our rent on the other performance?
ROSS It normally is $25 an hour, but a two-hour minimum. So he'd be paying at
least $50.
FASCHING It sounds like a worthwhile program, and it's a cultural thing for the
children in the Library and adults, an activity at the Library. And I told
him I would take this to the Council and see if we would waive the business
license permit.
MARGETT O.K. , for one performance he's going to get approximately $900, is that
right, if he sells it out?
FASCHING Ninety-nine people, yeah.
MARGETT Nine hundred dollars, a little bit less than $900, is that right?
FASCHING Yeah.
MARGETT O.K. What does he have to pay for the. . .does he have to pay something for
the rights to be able to put on the show?
FASCHING I don't know how he reimburses his actors or actresses.
ROSS They're working for nothing.
MARGETT They're working for nothing?
ROSS He may have to pay for some scenery fees, have somebody build some scenery,
that may be a cost.
CIRAULO Didn't they do this over at Holly Avenue School one time years ago?
ROSS I don't recall. I know Sierra Madre has. . .he said he was involved with
that.
FASCHING He started that, the Sierra Madre Little Theater.
HARBICHT Let me ask you a question. Let's say that some piano teacher is going to
have a recital for her 10 students and so she wants to use our room and
ask the students' parents to come and hear the recital and. . .has that
happened, that kind of thing? Is it used for that kind of thing?
ROSS For recitals? Yeah, we use it for piano recitals all the time.
HARBICHT What do we charge?
ROSS In that same range, $25 an hour, $50 minimum. . .2 hours minimum,
HARBICHT What's our justification for not charging this guy? He's charging
admission.
ROSS Well, any time you waive charges it's based on the decision of the Library
Board. I mean, it's stated in the policy that this can be waived at their
discretion.
MILLER Has the Library Board ruled on this?
16
L_.
WOOLARD Well, in this market it's slim.
CIRAULO I guess you don't know. But it's not a bad idea to make them aware of it,
I think, again.
WOOLARD Can this be used outside of the redevelopment area?
KINNAHAN There's two issues. The first one, the program didn't work before because
it was--Donna, correct me--it was not very much of an incentive program.
As the program went along, they began to offer more and more incentives
and give more and more of a rebate, and towards the end of the program it
got very successful. If I recollect, there was a waiting list when the
program finally went out of business. . .there was about two or three that
were in line.
ASSISTANT There were a few. Actually, we offered the same program all along, but
PLANNING DIR. what happened was I think everybody was just very leery of it, they didn't
DONNA BUTLER really understand the project. When we had the earthquake, that was the
greatest incentive that we probably had, the Whittier earthquake. Because
that's when the first, which was the Steerburger, took advantage of the
funding. And from that point, we went down. . .everybody kind of started
asking questions. We had our consultants go individually to each of the
businesses. But that really was the first push. We had a few people
before that that did some minor painting, a couple of signs, but up until
that time it was strictly two or three businesses.
WOOLARD In that downtown area someone at that time did go store to store to inform
the people of the program, gave handouts, and they tried to provide all
the information they could on the thing.
CIRAULO That was within the redevelopment area, though.
WOOLARD It coincidentally was within that area. Outside the redevelopment area
you couldn't use the CDBG funds.
FASCHING What's the possibility of. . .there must be a firm or people that specialize
in modernizing and updated community business districts where they give
you a concept and a plan and street, and buildings, and overall design,
and this type of thing. I'd like to think that we could have somebody that
would come in and look at our City and say this is what you should do here,
and you should do here, and that, and give us an idea of a concept and a
design to follow in all aspects. . . .
HARBICHT We've already done it.
WOOLARD That's what we had in the downtown. . . .
FASCHING Well, where is it? What did they say? Everybody was going to follow a
general plan?
HARBICHT No. As a result of their plan, we established design criteria downtown,
we've got a list of colors, we have a list of materials that you have to
use if you're redesigning anything in the downtown area. We put in new
street furniture, we put in new crosswalks, we put in all new street trees
down there. All of that was a result of those recommendations. And so
we have a design criteria for downtown.
FASCHING Where did we drop the ball?
HARBICHT What do you mean?
FASCHING Well, why does it look like it does?
HARBICHT These are privately owned businesses. You can't force them to. . . .
FASCHING Well, that's what I mean. This is why we're here, is to. . .how do we get
those businesses and what steps can we take to get this job done? And what
will it take?
WOOLARD The next step we had was offering free money to. . . .
19
CIRAULO Well, what I would like to see, is there any way we can expand it beyond
the formal redevelopment area, say on First Avenue, for instance?
KINNAHAN I reviewed that with the Agency attorney, and basically, when you go
outside a project area boundary, you have to show a direct relationship
and benefit to the project area. So if you were to go across the street
from the project area, you can probably say, well, that's probably a
benefit. You start getting a block away. . . .
CIRAULO Are there any (inaudible) that we could use to help those people. . .any
programs available?
KINNAHAN Not through the Redevelopment Agency. As I understand, not the Block Grant
because. . . .
CIRAULO In any other way?
•
KINNAHAN And the only other ones would be through private financing, through a
bank. . .there is. . .that's about it.
HARBICHT There is another one. We could take City funds and make them available.
KINNAHAN Well, I'm not sure. It might get (inaudible) .
LOJESKI When you look in that book there are some outstanding examples of junk and
something that really looks nicer.
HARBICHT There's been tremendous improvements.
LOJESKI Tremendous improvements. . .but they're all downtown.
HARBICHT O.K. , well I was just responding to your suggestion that we hire a
consultant. We've already done it.
FASCHING But he didn't tell us, though, of maybe one concept to follow in the
design. In other words, let's take those little stores on Huntington
between Santa Anita. and First. They all look different. Is there
something we could do to make that whole front of those stores all kind
of tie in to one design and still maintain their individuality, but we have
something that really looks like something for the whole length of the
block instead of somebody here with one thing and somebody with something
else. It gives a whole feeling to the block, is what I'm thinking of, and
then continue it on down to Second Avenue.
MARGETT You mean a continuity of a theme, George?
FASCHING Continuity of a theme.
HARBICHT Sort of a mini-mall look.
FASCHING Jump in here.
MARGETT Well, I'm listening here. You have the microphone.
FASCHING But that's the thing I'm talking about. I think these individuals, where
this guy puts on his style awning and the other guy puts on his style
awning, and we don't have any continuity down that street. I think that
Monrovia accomplished that. . .
HARBICHT They don't have continuity. . . .
FASCHING No, wait a minute. . .through the use of trees and street design they gave
it a concept.
MARGETT Well, I think they did, Bob, down Myrtle Avenue, I think they did give it
a concept, a turn-of-the-century type of look.
FASCHING But they did it with trees and street, Bob. They didn't do it with
storefronts. Well, storefronts are nice, but they don't all look alike.
20
HARBICHT But we did it with trees, too. And crosswalks, the monument signs, the
center divider.
WOOLARD If it wasn't for racetrack traffic you could do a lot more down there, but
we need two lanes in each direction to. . . .
FASCHING Well, there's got to be something we have to do, because it can't stay
looking like that for the next 10 years. 'It looks horrible. Baldwin
Avenue, down there, that big old sign sticking out there in front of
Hinshaw's with all those places on it, I don't think that has much
attractiveness or warmth to that street. I think the best looking street
we've got is Live Oak, with the way it's laid out with the center divider
and the trees and the grass and everything, to a degree. But my feeling
is we've got to :ome up with a feeling for our City that it all ties
together. And we have some trees down on there. . .I was up on Foothill
today, we've got some big trees that need trimming, we've got some little
trees that don't need trimming, and it just doesn't look very representa-
tive of the way our City should look. Maybe we need more tree trimmers.
Donna, you wanted to say something?
BUTLER Well, the only thing I was going to point out was, in talking about. . .Will-
dan was the company that was hired to take a look at the whole entire area.
And as Bob mentioned, one of the things that they were trying to do to tie
the area together. . .because one of the biggest problems down there is you
don't have similarity of design in buildings. They talked about
things. . .they felt that trying to create a theme in the downtown area just
wasn't really a theme you could tie all the buildings into. So what they
tried to do was, at that point in time, they tried to do it by the use of
colors, tying it in with the different types of paving materials, street
furniture, and so forth. Because that was the biggest problem that they
had. And it was presented to the Council, and the Council at the time went
along with the fact that it's very difficult to create a theme that doesn't
exist. I mean, you've got buildings that are so different in design and
style, so that was the use of the colors, the types of materials in the
downtown area, and that's why we adopted the downtown design overlay, which
set forth the specific colors, signing. . .which we're still trying to
encourage the replacement of older signs, but it still hasn't taken place
everywhere. But that was a major discussion. We've got a plan, which is
approximately yea big, that was done at the time they discussed all the
different treatments, what could be done and what couldn't be done and so
forth. We used,Block Grant funds to finance that study, and it's just that
I think it's important. . .you know, we did try to come up with something,
but I think it was felt that this was the best way to tie everything
together was through the use of landscaping. . . .
FASCHING Then I guess maybe what we're looking at here is how do we complete the
program that we came up with.
CIRAULO Well, I'd like to ask, if we can, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to ask Howard, do
you have any feel for how the merchants might feel, Howard, about this
idea, or have you heard anything?
HOWARD LAREW I've mainly heard, in South Arcadia, Joe, that people are not real excited
(PRES. , CH. OF with the storefronts down there. Downtown along Huntington Drive has
COMMERCE) certainly improved over the years, and I have no feel for individual
businesses as to whether they would be willing to put up their own funds
to do it. I think with the economy the way it is, they're all looking for
help. And I think they'd probably be receptive to some kind of a program.
CIRAULO I know I hear occasionally from the people on First Avenue south of
Huntington. But the problem, Pete tells us, that's not even the original
redevelopment area. So that's a whole different kind of an idea. . .a whole
different ballgame.
HARBICHT I think that, with regard to downtown. . .I'm talking about Huntington Drive
when I say downtown. . .a number of businesses took advantages of the Block
Grant program that we have. A number of others have gone ahead and
upgraded their storefronts. We still have some that are left to do. And
I don't think that a theme is feasible. I don't think it's feasible to
say anybody that redoes their storefront has to make it look like a western
21
ROSS Yes. They did say that it would be. . .they would give this approval
contingent upon his obtaining Workers Compensation insurance.
HARBICHT Well, what are we talking about it for, then?
MILLER I was going to say, it's not on the agenda tonight so you can't act on it.
FASCHING Well, we're not. . .I'm just throwing this out to Council.
MILLER Oh, O.K.
WOOLARD From the Council he's looking at us to waive the City fee.
ROSS You're talking about the work permit, which I have no knowledge of.
HARBICHT You mean the business license fee, is that what he's talking about getting
waived?
LOJESKI He's running a business and collects the admission. Why. . . .
HARBICHT Why would we do that?
FASCHING Well, I think the only reason we would think about it is, number one, it
brings a little cultural theater to the Library for the benefit of the
students and adults. I don't know what his expenses are, but I know he
has rehearsals for these plays and things like that. He's going to put
out $1,250 up front to State Fund, he tells me, to acquire the Workman's
Comp. So his attitude was. . .he's very nice about the whole thing, I mean
he's a resident of the City and says that he just doesn't have a whole lot
of money to be putting out on this type of thing. I don't think the guy's
going to get rich on it, myself, but he'll make a few bucks probably. It's
not a big deal. So, I don't know. . .whichever way you gentlemen want to
go. But you have to look at it, is it bringing something of value to the
City even though he is going to get reimbursed on some level for it, but
is it important to the City and the community.
MARGETT I always go back to precedent. In other words, we let this guy do it,
then. . .you know, I can remember here at that last Council meeting somebody
came in and wanted fees waived for putting in a generator for taking
pictures over at the Arboretum, and we said no. I don't know whether or
not you can all of a sudden say, well, yes, we'll allow the show at the
Library, but we're not going to be able to allow somebody to make a few
nickels putting on a production over at the Arboretum. Nobody's cutting
a fat hog, I don't think. But by the same token, I think we better
establish a policy so that if something down the road comes, you're going
to be consistent.
FASCHING We already have a policy. I think we have to decide each one, if we feel
if it's a benefit to the community, and then make the decision. I don't
happen to feel that the generator situation in the Arboretum, making a
commercial film, is of any benefit to the City. But little kids going to
a play at the Library might be a different situation.
HARBICHT Well, we can't make a decision right. . .though I guess I'm not in favor of
waiving the fee.
FASCHING O.K.
MARGETT I wouldn't be either.
FASCHING O.K. I just wanted to get a feeling out of you gentlemen.
2. BUSINESS O.K. We'll go on to the next item on the agenda. . .the business districts.
DISTRICTS - All right. Then the next item is Redevelopment on the business district.
MAYOR FASCHING Prior to that, I'd like to make one little announcement here, which I think
you're all aware of. There is a conference in San Jose on August 6 and
7 concerning downtown revitalization, Main Street prototypes. And I
intend to go to this. This might be of interest to us down the road
concerning our own business district. So I wanted to remind you of that
17
conference. And we have Mr. Larew from our Chamber of Commerce in the
audience. He is available to us for any item we may want to ask
him, on behalf of the Chamber. And I think the main point of this
discussion on business districts is a general feeling--and correct me if
I'm wrong--that we feel that there needs to be something done with our
business districts. The business district on Huntington Drive, the
business district on First Avenue for what's there, but just revitaliza-
tion. Baldwin Avenue falls into this perspective also, as does Live Oak
Avenue down in South Arcadia. And I think that this has been talked back
and forth in years, but nothing really being accomplished in it when we
look at other cities and what they've done with their business districts.
So, with that I'll open it up to general discussion. Mr. Harbicht.
HARBICHT Well, we've got this memo dated 6/10 on things that have been done, can
be done, and the one thing I see missing from here is this ^rogram that
we've had for redoing the facades of businesses in the downy .in area.
WOOLARD We've put together a book of before and afters. Some of these .11 be done
with a funding program that we had through the Block Grant Program. The
others were done individually.
CIRAULO Do we still have that program available? It was, what, a 50-50 thing, is
that how it worked?
WOOLARD _ It's still possible, but it's questionable as to the value of it at this
point.
HARBICHT How many did we do, or were done, under that program?
WOOLARD We did. . .about 16 or so places got some funds. Some were complete facade
removals and others were just for signs and awnings. So some were major
things and others were minor. The problem is that the amount of funding
that you now have to devote to your person of low-moderate income, that
percentage has increased. So the amount of money that would be available
for this program is substantially reduced. The fact that you have to go
through Mavis Bacon for the contractors and stuff makes it difficult to
find somebody, and the administration costs of monitoring all of their
employees and everything else makes it not a very cost-effective program.
But there are other ways the same types of things can be funded. Loans
through redevelopment agencies rather than just loans for other types of
(inaudible) might be available rather than the Block Grants. They're not
as constrained as the Block Grants were. Maybe it will have some. . . .
KINNAHAN In your package that Bob referred to, number seven refers to information
on a possible agency pilot commercial investor rebate loan program. That
deals exactly with picking up where the CDBG program left off. Where the
Redevelopment Agency could, in the downtown, finance a rehab commercial
loan program, or a grant program, (inaudible) program. We've done some
initial research into programs offered through other cities and other
agencies. We've researched the downtown as to the possible need for such.
The need is there. The program exists in other communities. We have funds
available in Arcadia to create such a program if the Agency wants it, in
this case the Agency. We can certainly come back to you with a clear
program concept where we can attack the small problem like signs. We can
probably create an architectural incentive program where there's two or
three architects who can assist a business. We help to pay for it, to
encourage them to take advantage of our design criteria, and then we can
also provide the rebate loan, the rebate to them to do the work. And it's
being modeled very much on the CDBG program.
CIRAULO Well, I like that whole idea.
HARBICHT Yeah, but we've already done it.
KINNAHAN We have, but there's quite a few more to do. We're not done yet.
CIRAULO There's a lot more to do.
HARBICHT The others didn't move when we offered it before. What's the probability
that they would move if we offered it again?
18
L_.
WOOLARD Well, in this market it's slim.
CIRAULO I guess you don't know. But it's not a bad idea to make them aware of it,
I think, again.
WOOLARD Can this be used outside of the redevelopment area?
KINNAHAN There's two issues. The first one, the program didn't work before because
it was--Donna, correct me--it was not very much of an incentive program.
As the program went along, they began to offer more and more incentives
and give more and more of a rebate, and towards the end of the program it
got very successful. If I recollect, there was a waiting list when the
program finally went out of business. . .there was about two or three that
were in line.
ASSISTANT There were a few. Actually, we offered the same program all along, but
PLANNING DIR. what happened was I think everybody was just very leery of it, they didn't
DONNA BUTLER really understand the project. When we had the earthquake, that was the
greatest incentive that we probably had, the Whittier earthquake. Because
that's when the first, which was the Steerburger, took advantage of the
funding. And from that point, we went down. . .everybody kind of started
asking questions. We had our consultants go individually to each of the
businesses. But that really was the first push. We had a few people
before that that did some minor painting, a couple of signs, but up until
that time it was strictly two or three businesses.
WOOLARD In that downtown area someone at that time did go store to store to inform
the people of the program, gave handouts, and they tried to provide all
the information they could on the thing.
CIRAULO That was within the redevelopment area, though.
WOOLARD It coincidentally was within that area. Outside the redevelopment area
you couldn't use the CDBG funds.
FASCHING What's the possibility of. . .there must be a firm or people that specialize
in modernizing and updated community business districts where they give
you a concept and a plan and street, and buildings, and overall design,
and this type of thing. I'd like to think that we could have somebody that
would come in and look at our City and say this is what you should do here,
and you should do here, and that, and give us an idea of a concept and a
design to follow in all aspects. . . .
HARBICHT We've already done it.
WOOLARD That's what we had in the downtown. . . .
FASCHING Well, where is it? What did they say? Everybody was going to follow a
general plan?
HARBICHT No. As a result of their plan, we established design criteria downtown,
we've got a list of colors, we have a list of materials that you have to
use if you're redesigning anything in the downtown area. We put in new
street furniture, we put in new crosswalks, we put in all new street trees
down there. All of that was a result of those recommendations. And so
we have a design criteria for downtown.
FASCHING Where did we drop the ball?
HARBICHT What do you mean?
FASCHING Well, why does it look like it does?
HARBICHT These are privately owned businesses. You can't force them to. . . .
FASCHING Well, that's what I mean. This is why we're here, is to. . .how do we get
those businesses and what steps can we take to get this job done? And what
will it take?
WOOLARD The next step we had was offering free money to. . . .
19
CIRAULO Well, what I would like to see, is there any way we can expand it beyond
the formal redevelopment area, say on First Avenue, for instance?
KINNAHAN I reviewed that with the Agency attorney, and basically, when you go
outside a project area boundary, you have to show a direct relationship
and benefit to the project area. So if you were to go across the street
from the project area, you can probably say, well, that's probably a
benefit. You start getting a block away. . . .
CIRAULO Are there any (inaudible) that we could use to help those people. . .any
programs available?
KINNAHAN Not through the Redevelopment Agency. As I understand, not the Block Grant
because. . . .
CIRAULO In any other way?
•
KINNAHAN And the only other ones would be through private financing, through a
bank. . .there is. . .that's about it.
HARBICHT There is another one. We could take City funds and make them available.
KINNAHAN Well, I'm not sure. It might get (inaudible) .
LOJESKI When you look in that book there are some outstanding examples of junk and
something that really looks nicer.
HARBICHT There's been tremendous improvements.
LOJESKI Tremendous improvements. . .but they're all downtown.
HARBICHT O.K. , well I was just responding to your suggestion that we hire a
consultant. We've already done it.
FASCHING But he didn't tell us, though, of maybe one concept to follow in the
design. In other words, let's take those little stores on Huntington
between Santa Anita. and First. They all look different. Is there
something we could do to make that whole front of those stores all kind
of tie in to one design and still maintain their individuality, but we have
something that really looks like something for the whole length of the
block instead of somebody here with one thing and somebody with something
else. It gives a whole feeling to the block, is what I'm thinking of, and
then continue it on down to Second Avenue.
MARGETT You mean a continuity of a theme, George?
FASCHING Continuity of a theme.
HARBICHT Sort of a mini-mall look.
FASCHING Jump in here.
MARGETT Well, I'm listening here. You have the microphone.
FASCHING But that's the thing I'm talking about. I think these individuals, where
this guy puts on his style awning and the other guy puts on his style
awning, and we don't have any continuity down that street. I think that
Monrovia accomplished that. . .
HARBICHT They don't have continuity. . . .
FASCHING No, wait a minute. . .through the use of trees and street design they gave
it a concept.
MARGETT Well, I think they did, Bob, down Myrtle Avenue, I think they did give it
a concept, a turn-of-the-century type of look.
FASCHING But they did it with trees and street, Bob. They didn't do it with
storefronts. Well, storefronts are nice, but they don't all look alike.
20
HARBICHT But we did it with trees, too. And crosswalks, the monument signs, the
center divider.
WOOLARD If it wasn't for racetrack traffic you could do a lot more down there, but
we need two lanes in each direction to. . . .
FASCHING Well, there's got to be something we have to do, because it can't stay
looking like that for the next 10 years. 'It looks horrible. Baldwin
Avenue, down there, that big old sign sticking out there in front of
Hinshaw's with all those places on it, I don't think that has much
attractiveness or warmth to that street. I think the best looking street
we've got is Live Oak, with the way it's laid out with the center divider
and the trees and the grass and everything, to a degree. But my feeling
is we've got to :ome up with a feeling for our City that it all ties
together. And we have some trees down on there. . .I was up on Foothill
today, we've got some big trees that need trimming, we've got some little
trees that don't need trimming, and it just doesn't look very representa-
tive of the way our City should look. Maybe we need more tree trimmers.
Donna, you wanted to say something?
BUTLER Well, the only thing I was going to point out was, in talking about. . .Will-
dan was the company that was hired to take a look at the whole entire area.
And as Bob mentioned, one of the things that they were trying to do to tie
the area together. . .because one of the biggest problems down there is you
don't have similarity of design in buildings. They talked about
things. . .they felt that trying to create a theme in the downtown area just
wasn't really a theme you could tie all the buildings into. So what they
tried to do was, at that point in time, they tried to do it by the use of
colors, tying it in with the different types of paving materials, street
furniture, and so forth. Because that was the biggest problem that they
had. And it was presented to the Council, and the Council at the time went
along with the fact that it's very difficult to create a theme that doesn't
exist. I mean, you've got buildings that are so different in design and
style, so that was the use of the colors, the types of materials in the
downtown area, and that's why we adopted the downtown design overlay, which
set forth the specific colors, signing. . .which we're still trying to
encourage the replacement of older signs, but it still hasn't taken place
everywhere. But that was a major discussion. We've got a plan, which is
approximately yea big, that was done at the time they discussed all the
different treatments, what could be done and what couldn't be done and so
forth. We used,Block Grant funds to finance that study, and it's just that
I think it's important. . .you know, we did try to come up with something,
but I think it was felt that this was the best way to tie everything
together was through the use of landscaping. . . .
FASCHING Then I guess maybe what we're looking at here is how do we complete the
program that we came up with.
CIRAULO Well, I'd like to ask, if we can, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to ask Howard, do
you have any feel for how the merchants might feel, Howard, about this
idea, or have you heard anything?
HOWARD LAREW I've mainly heard, in South Arcadia, Joe, that people are not real excited
(PRES. , CH. OF with the storefronts down there. Downtown along Huntington Drive has
COMMERCE) certainly improved over the years, and I have no feel for individual
businesses as to whether they would be willing to put up their own funds
to do it. I think with the economy the way it is, they're all looking for
help. And I think they'd probably be receptive to some kind of a program.
CIRAULO I know I hear occasionally from the people on First Avenue south of
Huntington. But the problem, Pete tells us, that's not even the original
redevelopment area. So that's a whole different kind of an idea. . .a whole
different ballgame.
HARBICHT I think that, with regard to downtown. . .I'm talking about Huntington Drive
when I say downtown. . .a number of businesses took advantages of the Block
Grant program that we have. A number of others have gone ahead and
upgraded their storefronts. We still have some that are left to do. And
I don't think that a theme is feasible. I don't think it's feasible to
say anybody that redoes their storefront has to make it look like a western
21
saloon, or whatever we decide is the theme. I just don't think that's
feasible because we're having a hard enough time just getting the majority
of them to redo their fronts. I mean, it's taken us years. But I think
the best that we can realistically shoot for is to try to get some of those
other ones that are in pretty bad shape to redo their storefronts within
the color and materials guidelines that we have in force down there, which
they would have to use if they do redo it. So the real question is, how
can we get them to do it? And it sounds to me that maybe using some
redevelopment funds and putting a priority on that in that we ask that some
significant amount of staff time be invested in contacting people, saying
the City is willing to put up this much money, or whatever, to help you
do this. And I think the possibility of maybe having two or three
architects who are tuned into the program, and we could say if you'll
contact one of these people, or we'll have one of them contact you, is the
only way we're going to accomplish it. Because we've got all kinds of
absentee owners down there who don't see it. . . .
FASCHING Well, I agree with what you're saying. I think. . .probably a concept we'd
like to see, but I think maybe it might be well for us to concentrate on
what we can do. In other words, what we can do with our streets, what we
can do with our landscaping and our trees, to make it much more desirable.
Then we go. . . .
•
HARBICHT Like what?
FASCHING Well, I don't know, but we can certainly. . . .
HARBICHT We put in all new street trees three or four years ago. . .
FASCHING Well, maybe there's some more we can do, I don't know.
HARBICHT . . .we redid the railroad bridge, we got the center divider, and we put in
crosswalks. I don't know what's left.
FASCHING Well, O.K. It's always good. . .we can still take another look at it from
that standpoint. That's what we can do. What we can't do is come up with
a theme or this other thing. But to try to make available to these
business owners what we can to rehabilitate their storefronts, and if they
don't want to do it then what do we have, as a body, that we can do by
resolution to make them. . .force them to get into a. . . .
HARBICHT Force them to do it?
FASCHING Well, I don't know, maybe condemn their property. . .they're in a
redevelopment area.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, you know, I talked to a realtor, a prominent realtor in town,
and we were talking much in the same vein that the Council is talking right
now. She said that invariably the owners or the tenants that are in these
small stores really don't want anything more to be done on the front of
those stores, because invariably then the landlord wants to raise rents
and they cannot afford rents. . .now this is what she said. She said that
there's nothing that would really induce. . .and what you need on Huntington
Drive, if we're still talking Huntington Drive, is something that would
induce foot traffic on Huntington Drive. There's nobody that wants to park
over in back of Jimmy Chin's building or in front of the post office and
walk across the street and walk up and down Huntington Drive to be able
to buy something. There's just not that inducement. I was thinking just ,
the other day. . .and I don't know whether staff has had any consideration
about this. . .but we've got, apparently, a post office that's going to be
torn down and refurbished. I think there's a ton of foot traffic in front
of that post office. I don't know whether we should not consider
putting. . .
[End of Tape 1 - Side 2, beginning of Tape 2 - Side 1]
. . .stuff money into it and let's get block grants, let's get. . .and so on
and so forth. . .and we might be just trying to chase a dead horse. It might
22
11
very well be that that area has purely lost it's economic use for that
area. It just may not be. . . .
Why?
HARGETT . . .where it is. And that's a natural transition that's taken place.
FASCHING Well, what do you do with it then?
CIRAULO With a lack of parking, that could very well be.
FASCHING What do we do with it?
LOJESKI That's your whole key. The whole key to the situation, George. Look at
the north side versus the south side.
MARGETT You say what do you do with it. . .excuse me, Dennis, I cut you off. I
didn't mean to.
LOJESKI No, I interrupted you. But I'm just saying, look at the north side versus
the south side of the street between First Avenue and Santa Anita. I look
at it every day. The north side has plenty of traffic. Why? Why do the
storefronts look better? Why do you have businesses proliferating on that
side? You've got parking for the customers. The minute you take parking ,
away, such as you have done, or there's a lack of 'it. . .we haven't
done. . .but that's the way the area developed. The businesses are in
shambles on the south side of the street.
MARGETT Well, see, staff will tell you that there's sufficient parking in the area
to be able to take care of both,the north and south sides.
LOJESKI Gockley's is gone because Gockley's, first of all, had two parking spaces
behind their store and people couldn't come in there. They couldn't
function.
FASCHING Gockley's, I think, was a result of being gobbled up by people that. . .all
the wholesale stationery stores.
LOJESKI But that's the value of retail business today. You have to make yourself
available to the customer. If the customer is going to come into a mama
and poppa area, there's got to be incentive. And if you can't park right
there. . .you know, a signal, a better situation for that intersection of
Huntington and First was put in. . .what did it do? It took parking spaces
away on the street. There was no additional parking to the poor businesses
on the west side of the street, and that stationery store went under. In
other words, it was just another thing that happened down there.
FASCHING Then I guess we can throw First Avenue into the same category. Maybe it's
beyond it's, commercial use.
LOJESKI I don't know. It's all in the redevelopment area.
FASCHING I come back to the question, what do we do with it? Just let it sit?
HARGETT No.
FASCHING What?
LOJESKI I think you've given incentives to the people in that area, much more than
we've ever been able to give, than we've ever done in West Arcadia, South
Arcadia, Foothill Boulevard. We haven't gotten into any assistance
programs up in those areas.
MARGETT We can't do everything. In other words, if it's true what you said, that
we have provided all those incentives, City government, local government,
has been able to provide those incentives and we've gone the extra mile
and we've had the staff reports and we've had the consultants go ahead and
look at those areas and still things haven't clicked, then I would say that
it could very well be that we've lost our use. for that land. When you find
condominiums coming right back up to the developments that are all on the
23
south side of Huntington Drive, you're not going to go in there and lay
those waste and build more parking area, I don't think. And I would say
that it may very well be, Mr. Mayor, to be able to. . .and I'm sure that a
feasibility study as to what that area should be may be just what you want
to do.
LOJESKI The Willdan study did that. The Willdan study addressed the south side
of Huntington Drive and said if it's going to remain in the long-range plan
of things a business commercial area, there has to be parking created.
And their recommendation was to take the north side of Alta Street and
devote that to parking. So you've got now developable sites, O.K.? You've
got the availability, hypothetically, of AT&T to come in, let's say, and
build a three-story building. . . .
FASCHING Where?
LOJESKI On Huntington Drive, let's say.
FASCHING Between First and Santa Anita?
LOJESKI Could be. Could be. You've got an anchor on one side which is a bank,
George, O.K.? It's the only decent building, I think, in that whole block.
FASCHING Home Savings?
LOJESKI Sure.
MARGETT And they're short of parking.
LOJESKI Not really.
HARGETT Well, their parking is across the street. . .is that what somebody's going
to do to cash their. . . .
LOJESKI No, but that's my point, O.K.? If you cannot go to a mama and poppa store,
then what's the incentive to go there? You're going to go to a mall,
you're going to go to Monrovia, or wherever is convenient.
MARGETT But what I'm saying, the next step, if we're going to generate parking,
where are you going to generate it? Go in there and lay waste some of
those condominiums that are brand new?
LOJESKI From between First and Second, you're stuck. Between Santa Anita and First
Avenue you're not stuck. By that I'm saying just by the age of the
structures.
HARBICHT Yeah, but you're stuck from a cost standpoint.
LOJESKI Sure. No doubt about it. I'm just saying we have a study that was done.
If I'm wrong Bill, that was one of three studies over the last 25 years,
I think, that's been done. They have all addressed the south side of
Huntington Drive in that very direct (inaudible) .
MARGETT In other words, does that study say that that is a viable economic entity
on the south side of Huntington Drive, we can really make some money there
if we provide parking?
LOJESKI If you have parking.
FASCHING Well, I doubt that very much.
MARGETT So do I.
LOJESKI George, it's undevelopable from a retail standpoint. . . .
FASCHING We already have all this development land out there that we want to develop
anyway. What we want to do is clean up the looks of the business district.
We don't have the parking, they're stuck there. And if we don't clean them
up, we don't have the parking, what are we going to do with them?
24
( )
HARBICHT I think we've got two different things here we're talking about. One is
parking, that's a whole separate issue. And if we want to take that
up. . .there's no question that parking would help the viability of that
area. But the cost of providing that parking is so astronomical that I
don't think that. . . .
FASCHING Plus the cost of relocating all those tenants and the (inaudible) . It's
not even in the ballpark.
HARBICHT The second issue is to say, what can we do to clean up that area, to get
the rest of it looking nice. And I guess I come back to what I said
before, is I think that I would be willing to entertain the idea of using,
maybe, some redevelopment money and putting together a program much like
we had before but maybe with a little less red tape. But basically, what
you're going to be doing when you cut it all away is you're saying to the
owner, "If you'll spend $30,000 fixing up the front of this building, we'll
pay for $15,000 of it." That's what it'comes down to.
FASCHING But you know what? It wouldn't cost him $30,000.
HARBICHT I just use that as an example. I don't know what it would cost.
FASCHING They don't want to spend five grand.
HARBICHT But I specifically reject the idea that we say, "Well, if you won't do it
voluntarily, somehow we're going to make you do it." Because I won't vote
to do that. I don't know if it's possible, but if it was, I wouldn't vote
to do it.
CIRAULO They're all doing so poorly, I just don't think they have the money to. . . .
FASCHING Who's they? Not the property owners, the guys renting the buildings are
doing poorly.
CIRAULO Yeah, the businesses that are there.
FASCHING The guys that own the property paid for it a long time ago.
CIRAULO He doesn't care.
FASCHING It's all lint in his pocket.
CIRAULO I'm talking about the poor little business guy who's there.
FASCHING That's right. So then our City slinks along with these businesses looking
like heck on Huntington Drive. The property owner puts all that paid-off
building money in his pocket. And we can end up with people doing pawn
shops with gates on the front and all that type of stuff.
MARGETT We're getting back to the thesis that I put out on the table, Mr. Mayor.
Maybe you have lost that use of that property.
FASCHING O.K. , then I'll pose this question to you--what are we going to do with
it?
MARGETT O.K. , well, we're going full circle here. If that is viable, if we know
for sure that we can make things click down there by providing Block Grant
funds or similar programs, I would be in favor of that. But there's no
sense in going in there and giving a Block Grant-type program and still
have people worried that their rental rates are going to go up. And we
haven't really generated any of the income or the tax that we can get to
substantiate spending the money.
CIRAULO See, I think they're going to get even less traffic and do less business
once Nordstrom's moves in and the mall has got a whole new thing.
FASCHING I think we should go on to the next subject. . .we'll never come to a. . . .
CIRAULO Well, I know, but what do we do with it?
25
FASCHING Yeah, what do we do with it? That's what we're here for, to decide what
to do with it, not to find out all the economical problems of those guys
selling costumes and everything.
MARGETT I think that a lot of it. . .and we're sitting here trying to make that
decision, Mr. Mayor. But, you know, we've got the Chamber of Commerce and
we've got the owners of the building, and we've also got the tenants of
the building. They should be saying, hey, this is what would be beneficial
for this downtown area. And I don't hear them saying anything.
CIRAULO Well, let me ask, Pete, you attend the Downtown Business Association
meetings occasionally. What do they say, what's the feel, what do you
hear?
KINNAHAN I don't recall that really coming up. It's, probably a question -~at can
be posed to them :o get their input.
LOJESKI I'll give you an answer to that, Joe. Bob and I, as two candidates for
the City Council, attended a meeting with the downtown Arcadia business
merchants. Their key question to all the candidates is what are you going
to do to protect. . .I'll give you an example. . .the guy that owns and
operates Rod's Diner says, "What are you going to do to protect my business
so I can stay in business at the expense of what's going to develop—at the
Ford agency? What is your concept, Mr. Councilman? What are you going
to do so my business doesn't suffer?" That's a tough question to answer.
That's where their concern was. The old, established guy, he'll continue
to operate down there.
FASCHING I don't know. That's an old, established restaurant, Rod's. Well, the
thing here is that we can go over all of these problems to the shop owner,
the retailer, the property owner, but we're not getting to the solving of
the problem. If it looks like hell, how do we make it look better
for. . .and you can't convince me that if everything looks better they're
not going to enjoy more business, with one problem in mind is the parking
on the south side of Huntington. But if you continue to allow these to
exist and continue to deteriorate, and the lower class retailer is getting
in there because the place looks like hell in a period of time, that
doesn't help our City.
MARGETT Mr. Mayor, would you suggest that we have a session with representatives
of the downtown owners and the tenants and the Chamber of Commerce and see
what they would think that would be beneficial for them down there?
FASCHING No, I wouldn't.
MARGETT Well, how can we sit here and tell them that this is going to be good for
them?
FASCHING, O.K. , all I'm looking at is this. We're probably looking at maybe eight
or nine property owners involved in this. Any businessman in his right
mind would not tell us that improvements of the business district would
not be beneficial to him. So if I wanted him to come in and tell me how
to handle the property owners and get them to do what they should do to
improve their buildings, that's one thing. But they can't tell us that.
They can only tell us what they consider is a good retailing situation.
And we know what a good retailing situation is. Not a deteriorating
retailing situation. And I think I come back to Bob, we have to have
somebody that goes out and calls on these property owners and convinces
them that it's in the best interest of our City, and them, and their future
to participate in an upgrade of their business front, and try and do that.
MARGETT You know, George, I think that's fine. I just don't know that we're
hitting nails on heads and getting to the root of the problem. Putting
a new storefront and then saying everybody is going to come in here and
buy new watches or whatever this guy is trying to sell over there, I don't
know whether they're going to be able to do that.
FASCHING Well, then, let's blow it up. We'll get rid of it.
26
MARGETT So everybody can walk down or drive down Huntington Drive and say, "This
is beautiful"?
FASCHING You're saying just because. . .I'm not talking about. . .you're saying just
because we say new storefronts, new awnings, and it looks nice, and paint
and everything else, that they're going to sell more watches? I can't
guarantee that, Bob. But I can guarantee it's going to sure make our City
look a lot better.
MARGETT No question about it.
FASCHING That's what I'm interested in.
MARGETT O.K. , but how is this guy going to substantiate the spending of $30,000
or $15,000 or whatever?
FASCHING You don't know. . .Bob, to fix up the storefront on one of those small
buildings, I would estimate would be $3,000, $3,500. Buy a canopy and
paint. Maybe some new facade on it with the split brick or something.
You're not talking $30,000. I do my carwash once a year. I make the whole
thing look different, it doesn't cost me more than $8,000 or $9,000.
CIRAULO You're saying split that cost with them? The City split the cost with. . . .
FASCHING Do we have the money available in Community Block Grant funds?
KINNAHAN Redevelopment funds.
FASCHING Sure. We have to have a program that we're going to go out there and sell
these people.
LOJESKI What about this Business Improvement District? What is that all about?
WOOLARD That's like an ABA, who had formed their own group. And they can be taxed
on their business licenses to put money into their association. They then
sponsor events and do other promotional activities and stuff to encourage
activities, hopefully, spending the money within their district.
CIRAULO I have to agree with everybody else. There is very little that they can
do that's going to encourage more business because there's no parking.
So the business they have now, that's pretty much the business they're
going to get. But what we could do is improve the appearance of the
street, I guess that's what we're talking about, right?
WOOLARD I think you've got a real problem down there. . .I don't want to say real
problem. . .you have a problem in that it's not going to be a retail area.
You can fix up the storefronts to look fantastic, and you're still not
going to get anybody selling anything because that's not where people go
to buy. They go to the malls, they go to the mini malls.
FASCHING Well, not necessarily. They're all open, doing business.
LOJESKI Look what's on the north side, George. You've got. . . .
FASCHING There's vacancies on the north side, too. There's vacancies. Gockley's
has been vacant for a year.
LOJESKI It's been sold.
FASCHING Well, just recently.
HARBICHT Are you saying, if it's moving away from retail, the retail office. . . .
LOJESKI You're moving into offices. . .you've got attorneys on the north side, you've
got a hair dressing salon, which is a destination that women. . . .
FASCHING O.K. , whether it be an attorney's office or hair. . .I don't care if it's
retail. I just want it to look good. I don't care what's in there.
HARBICHT How many want it to look good?
27
MARGETT So everybody can walk down or drive down Huntington Drive and say, "This
is beautiful"?
FASCHING You're saying just because. . .I'm not talking about. . .you're saying just
because we say new storefronts, new awnings, and it looks nice, and paint
and everything else, that they're going to sell more watches? I can't
guarantee that, Bob. But I can guarantee it's going to sure make our City
look a lot better.
MARGETT No question about it.
FASCHING That's what I'm interested in.
MARGETT O.K. , but how is this guy going to substantiate the spending of $30,000
or $15,000 or whatever?
FASCHING You don't know. . .Bob, to fix up the storefront on one of those small
buildings, I would estimate would be $3,000, $3,500. Buy a canopy and
paint. Maybe some new facade on it with the split brick or something.
You're not talking $30,000. I do my carwash once a year. I make the whole
thing look different, it doesn't cost me more than $8,000 or $9,000.
CIRAULO You're saying split that cost with them? The City split the cost with. . . .
FASCHING Do we have the money available in Community Block Grant funds?
KINNAHAN Redevelopment funds.
FASCHING Sure. We have to have a program that we're going to go out there and sell
these people.
LOJESKI What about this Business Improvement District? What is that all about?
WOOLARD That's like an ABA, who had formed their own group. And they can be taxed
on their business licenses to put money into their association. They then
sponsor events and do other promotional activities and stuff to encourage
activities, hopefully, spending the money within their district.
CIRAULO I have to agree with everybody else. There is very little that they can
do that's going to encourage more business because there's no parking.
So the business they have now, that's pretty much the business they're
going to get. But what we could do is improve the appearance of the
street, I guess that's what we're talking about, right?
WOOLARD I think you've got a real problem down there. . .I don't want to say real
problem. . .you have a problem in that it's not going to be a retail area.
You can fix up the storefronts to look fantastic, and you're still not
going to get anybody selling anything because that's not where people go
to buy. They go to the malls, they go to the mini malls.
FASCHING Well, not necessarily. They're all open, doing business.
LOJESKI Look what's on the north side, George. You've got. . . .
FASCHING There's vacancies on the north side, too. There's vacancies. Gockley's
has been vacant for a year.
LOJESKI It's been sold.
FASCHING Well, just recently.
HARBICHT Are you saying, if it's moving away from retail, the retail office. . . .
LOJESKI You're moving into offices. . .you've got attorneys on the north side, you've
got a hair dressing salon, which is a destination that women. . . .
FASCHING O.K. , whether it be an attorney's office or hair. . .I don't care if it's
retail. I just want it to look good. I don't care what's in there.
HARBICHT How many want it to look good?
27
MARGETT So everybody can walk down or drive down Huntington Drive and say, "This
is beautiful"?
FASCHING You're saying just because. . .I'm not talking about. . .you're saying just
because we say new storefronts, new awnings, and it looks nice, and paint
and everything else, that they're going to sell more watches? I can't
guarantee that, Bob. But I can guarantee it's going to sure make our City
look a lot better.
MARGETT No question about it.
FASCHING That's what I'm interested in.
MARGETT O.K. , but how is this guy going to substantiate the spending of $30,000
or $15,000 or whatever?
FASCHING You don't know. . .Bob, to fix up the storefront on one of those small
buildings, I would estimate would be $3,000, $3,500. Buy a canopy and
paint. Maybe some new facade on it with the split brick or something.
You're not talking $30,000. I do my carwash once a year. I make the whole
thing look different, it doesn't cost me more than $8,000 or $9,000.
CIRAULO You're saying split that cost with them? The City split the cost with. . . .
FASCHING Do we have the money available in Community Block Grant funds?
KINNAHAN Redevelopment funds.
FASCHING Sure. We have to have a program that we're going to go out there and sell
these people.
LOJESKI What about this Business Improvement District? What is that all about?
WOOLARD That's like an ABA, who had formed their own group. And they can be taxed
on their business licenses to put money into their association. They then
sponsor events and do other promotional activities and stuff to encourage
activities, hopefully, spending the money within their district.
CIRAULO I have to agree with everybody else. There is very little that they can
do that's going to encourage more business because there's no parking.
So the business they have now, that's pretty much the business they're
going to get. But what we could do is improve the appearance of the
street, I guess that's what we're talking about, right?
WOOLARD I think you've got a real problem down there. . .I don't want to say real
problem. . .you have a problem in that it's not going to be a retail area.
You can fix up the storefronts to look fantastic, and you're still not
going to get anybody selling anything because that's not where people go
to buy. They go to the malls, they go to the mini malls.
FASCHING Well, not necessarily. They're all open, doing business.
LOJESKI Look what's on the north side, George. You've got. . . .
FASCHING There's vacancies on the north side, too. There's vacancies. Gockley's
has been vacant for a year.
LOJESKI It's been sold.
FASCHING Well, just recently.
HARBICHT Are you saying, if it's moving away from retail, the retail office. . . .
LOJESKI You're moving into offices. . .you've got attorneys on the north side, you've
got a hair dressing salon, which is a destination that women. . . .
FASCHING O.K. , whether it be an attorney's office or hair. . .I don't care if it's
retail. I just want it to look good. I don't care what's in there.
HARBICHT How many want it to look good?
27
- )
.y
Springfield, Illinois, that, I tell you. . .he went in there and was checking
with the Chamber of Commerce and the Redevelopment Agency that they have
there. And I tell you, they would do anything to get this fellow to move
from Irwindale back there to be able to manufacture furniture com-
ponents. . .labor market, less labor market, less OSHA, less everything, to
be able to do that. And I think that you're going to be competing, we're
going to be competing with that type of marketing.
FASCHING Plus, his family could buy a 3,000-square-foot house for $135,000.
MARGETT Right, the housing. . .right, George, that's another aspect of it.
LOJESKI Is our current attitude, I would hope, is an extremely positive one, to
actually sell the attributes of Arcadia. . .not sell the City down the road
or the river, or give things away, give the ranch away. . .but I mean to sell
the attributes to the development world and the possibilities of those
particular sites. They may be bastardized sites as far as looking like
arrowheads and things like that, but talk about the quality of the
community, freeway accessibility, even from a signage standpoint, O.K.?
And from that standpoint maybe we should be in mode to somewhat relax our
standards and that sort of thing. So if it was a viable business that was
backing up to the freeway that they could have some exposure so people
would know where they were.
HARBICHT Well, we have a fantastic brochure that does just that.
LOJESKI Has it ever been published or put out to anybody?
KINNAHAN Mm-hm. It was mailed out. . .we've used this extensively. As a matter of
fact, we're coming to the end of the number. . . .
MARGETT But, you know, the other thing that concerns me, gentlemen, about Arcadia
is the demographics that we have to offer a person coming in. You know,
we don't have a lot of people per square mile in Arcadia. We're fortunate
enough to have a lot of open space. We don't have that number, that sheer
number that people like from the standpoint of retail. And I thank the
Good Lord that Nordstrom's went by that and are coming in. And I think
that one of the problems that we have on Huntington Drive, Mr. Mayor, that
we talked about earlier is the sheer demographics. We don't have
demographics that make things economically viable to some of our areas.
HARBICHT Not for retail, but most of our interest has been in the area of office,
and we've put in the hotels, which have been a godsend, and that's probably
the way that's going to go. And I think the fact that they've got this
freeze on in Pasadena is going to help us. When things pick up and people
get back into the development game, they can't go into Pasadena, where's
the next logical place? They're going to look at Arcadia, because we're
close to Pasadena, which is one of the reasons that our hotels are
successful. I mean, I think we're positioned, when things turn around,
to market this property successfully.
FASCHING Well, now we come right back to marketing strategy. That's what I think
we're mainly concerned with, is how to market our property in the most
strategic ways and aggressive ways, and what markets can we go to to make
known the availability of this property to corporate headquarters that may
want to relocate from West L.A. or downtown Los Angeles. . . .
LOJESKI Or from elsewhere in the United States, maybe they want to come to Southern
California. I think we've got some prime locations.
FASCHING Well, we do. We have some nice properties. And if we get one going, they
all could possibly.
LOJESKI There's still a little, I think, of the stigma, too, in the development
world. And I heard this directly from an individual by the name of Blaine
Fadder. Blaine has had an interest in developing Huntington Drive at the
intersection of Huntington and Myrtle and has done a phenomenal job over
there, with corporate headquarters and things like that. And the stigma
being, "I won't bring a project to Arcadia because it's just too tough to
work with the people over there." Now, whatever that means. I certainly
hope that's not the situation and that we are more of in the "Hey, let's
37
CIRAULO Boy, that would turn into a projects. . .Arcadia Downtown Projects.
FRIEDMANN Then they say, "How much do you want." We say, "Well, the Agency had an
offer for light industrial in such-and-such a year for this amount of
money," and they turn that down. And then a few years later there was a
guy who was interested who wanted to pay $25 a square foot, and the
developer had no developing experience, but it seemed like the Agency was
more receptive to $25 a square foot. So it's hard to. . .they try to get
this information from us, so it would be helpful to have some direction
in the marketing.
HARBICHT Well, what was the per-square-foot selling price of the South Side Project
going to be?
KINNAHAN It was going to average around nineteen and a half.
HARBICHT The Agency had gone ahead with that and were willing to do the deal, so
at least that gives you some sort of a ballpark thing. On the north side
we're probably talking about a little less, because it doesn't have the
Huntington frontage. I mean, assuming we get the kind of development that
we want.
LOJESKI One thing, of course, if we could all put a crystal ball on it and say,
you know, we're going, to have a light rail, something or other, coming
through the City. You're going to talk about a dramatic change, I think,
particularly (inaudible) sales tax revenue. You put a station down in the
downtown area, you know, you're going to see an industrial-zoned area
perhaps changed to a commercial area.
FASCHING I'd like to comment on that. At the present time there. . .as of, say,
months ago, this whole corridor situation is under study trying to get the
extension of Pasadena to Azusa rather than terminating in East Pasadena.
And so there's been a lot of work done on that. At the present time there
is developing a real possibility of extending the Pasadena line to as far
as Arcadia, which would mean a terminus at the First and Santa Clara
property. The ridership falls off tremendously once you get past Arcadia,
in terms of ridership. The Transportation Coalition, as well as the
Transportation Commission of the San Gabriel Valley Association of Cities,
along with Duarte and Monrovia, not including Irwindale and Azusa because
they're really not players. But, the theory being that if we can get it
to Irwindale there's a lot of property there that could be the end of the
line. My concept in the past of a terminus of the light rail would
encompass. . .I had visions of storage yards for light rail cars and a
roundhouse or something of that nature. I thought this would be the deal.
But actually a terminus, I find, is only no more than probably a station
with the exception of it needs much more parking. So you don't have a
large facility. . .you have a station but that's the.end of the line. Now
they go the other way. But because it is the end of the line you have
to. . .and in this instance it's almost 1,000-car parking area for the
terminus. Pasadena does not want the terminus in East Pasadena. They have
to build a parking structure that they don't want to build, and they would
like to see it out of East Pasadena. There was a press conference last
Thursday where they made an announcement by LACTC, and there were other
officials there in front of the station in Pasadena, and David and I were
ther. As to the acquisition of the right-of-way from Santa Fe, it's
completed now, so it's a go situation with the Pasadena line. In
discussion with some of those people there from Pasadena, they're anxious
to get that thing beyond Pasadena because they don't want it to stop there,
they have a lot of problems in acquiring this land and building this
parking structure. And so, it's being supported also to take it further
than Pasadena by Tri-cities, which is Burbank and Glendale, because it
would be beneficial to them if we get it extended out here also, isn't that
correct? ' So, anyway, there is a strong possibility, and also Santa Anita
is fighting very hard for this, to get it as far as Arcadia. At this
point, whereas a year ago I would say to get it here would be in the year
2004, I think we have a 50-50 chance of getting it here at the same time
they do the Pasadena line. Which means it could be here in 1997.
HARBICHT Well, what are we going to do about parking?
39
4"
work together on this thing, let's try to see this thing happen and come
together." Again, not to give the farm away.
HARBICHT Well, I tell you, there's two ways to look at that. One is to say we're
too tough, we're hard to work with and so we're putting some people off.
The other side of the coin is we have high standards, we adhere to them,
we don't give up on parking, we have design review for all commercial
areas, and that is why Arcadia is what Arcadia is. So, you know, it
depends on what side of the fence you're on. I don't know if I want to
relax our standards. I certainly would hope that we would have a
cooperative attitude and try to work with people as much as possible, but
at the same time I think that. . . . I guess I keep going back to, you know,
60 or 70 years ago you had El Monte and Arcadia, not much difference
between the two, same climate, same soil and everything, and there were
some governmental decisions that were made in the two places. And today
Arcadia is what Arcadia is, and El Monto• is what El Monte is. And it came
about because of standards that were set in the two communities. And I
think that it's important that we maintain certain standards. There's
always the tendency to say, "Gee, we really would like to market this piece
of property or get somebody in so maybe we ought to back off a little bit."
I think we ought to be real careful about that.
FASCHING I don't think. . .you weren't referring to standards. I don't think we'd
want to relax our standards.
LOJESKI Absolutely not.
HARBICHT But a lot of people that say we're hard to work with are saying we're hard
to work with for just that reason. Because there's a lot of communities
that will say, "Well, yeah, we require five parking spaces per thousand
but we could probably work it out for four."
FASCHING Well, we can see evidence of relaxing standards on parking, particularly.
You can't do that.
WOOLARD We did that with Gribble, actually, by joint uses and stuff there the
parking was modified. And on the Johnson property north of the water
tanks. They got modifications for signs so they were visible from the
' freeway.
HARBICHT Higher, yeah. I think those are reasonable. . .working with people. I think
there were some valid reasons for. . . .
FASCHING I don't think we want to reduce our standards. Did you have something to
say?
FRIEDMANN We have signs on the properties right now. . .the signs have been there for
a while and I still get some calls sometimes. And the first question, of
course, everybody asks is, "How much is it?" And staff doesn't have the
answer to that question. And then they ask, "Well, what do you want to
see on this property?" And so then we kind of go back to the direction
we had from the Council before, and that was, well, we most likely would
like to see 70 percent of office projects. And then they say, "Well, thank
you very much." You can't get loans for office buildings.
CIRAULO What kind of projects are they offering?
FRIEDMANN Well, they're not offering really anything that. . .they're offering like,
a church, there are churches that call, and batting cages. . . .
MARGETT No, we don't want that.
FRIEDMANN Housing, a lot of people want to put housing on that site, on the four
acres.
CIRAULO Residents?
FRIEDMANN Right. Apartments, condos, low-mod housing. Housing was one of the
biggest things that we had interest in.
38
C)
HARBICHT Too bad.
CIRAULO Yeah, it is too bad.
MARGETT Yeah, that is too bad.
LOJESKI What about Dick Cordano? He went with the band a couple of times to
Australia.
MARGETT I have Beth Wells. And I tell you, she's knocking herself out for the
community.
LOJESKI What about Lois Patnou?
MARGETT She's very good. I would go Lois Patnou also.
HARBICHT I'd like to see Patnou and Cordano myself.
FASCHING Who do you want?
LOJESKI Those are the two names I had down for the commission.
FASCHING Who do you want, Bob?
MARGETT I thought Beth Wells and Patnou.
FASCHING Wait a minute, here, let's see. Who did you have?
HARBICHT I had Patnou. . . .
CIRAULO Patnou is good.
FASCHING And who was the other?
MARGETT Beth Wells.
HARBICHT Cordano.
FASCHING I would like to see Lois Patnou and Beth Wells.
MARGETT Have we got a consensus?
CIRAULO Yeah, I would go with that.
FASCHING With what?
CIRAULO Beth Wells and Patnou.
FASCHING O.K. , make the motion.
CIRAULO I will move that we have Beth Wells and Lois Patnou on the Sister City
Commission.
MARGETT Second the motion.
FASCHING Do you want a roll call on this? Any objections? So ordered.
HARBICHT Move to reappoint Pat Loechner and Janie Steckenrider.
CIRAULO Second.
FASCHING Move to appoint by Councilman Harbicht, seconded by, was it you, Bob?
MARGETT Well, I will. I didn't, but I will.
HARBICHT It was Joe, wasn't it?
CIRAULO Yeah.
45
t.
LOJESKI I'm making a motion to appoint Peggy Leatherman for the Assistance League
slot. She's a great lady.
MARGETT Second the motion.
FASCHING So ordered. Any objections?
HARBICHT I had Miller written down here. I have to review. . .
MARGETT Owen Miller?
HARBICHT I guess. I just made notes on here of who. . . .
LOJESKI Did Lois Patnou want to be appointed to the Sister City Commission or was
it the Senior Citizen Commission? Or did it make a difference?
MARGETT I don't think it made any difference.
FASCHING It might to her. Oh, it didn't make any difference? O.K.
LOJESKI Well, what I'm suggesting is, if you had that desire, you could put Lois
on the Senior Citizen Commission and you could put Richard Cordano, since
there was a couple of us that liked Dick's abilities, on the Sister City
Commission.
FASCHING O.K. , want to switch it?
CIRAULO He's put in an application for all the commissions, so it doesn't make any
difference to him apparently.
FASCHING Cordano?
CIRAULO Yeah.
FASCHING You don't want to put him on Senior Citizens?
LOJESKI No, I was just looking at his experience with the band. He has been so
instrumental and he knows so many of those people with the band coming
back this winter.
FASCHING All right. Make a motion, then, to remove Lois Patnou from the Sister
City Commission, put Dick Cordano on that commission, and to appoint Lois
Patnou to the Senior Citizens Commission.
HARBICHT How about Louise Gelber? We can't overlook her.
FASCHING She's running for office.
(Laughter)
CIRAULO We've got one more for Senior Citizens.
FASCHING No, we already put Lois Patnou on there.
MARGETT Patnou and Leatherman.
CIRAULO On Senior Citizens? Yeah Leatherman and Patnou, . O.K.
FASCHING And we put Dick Cordano and Beth Wells on Sister City. Do you have a
motion on that? O.K. , it was so moved.
5. MEASURE A
ARGUMENT -
CITY CHARTER
AMD. (9-15-92
SPEC. ELEC. ) -
HARBICHT Mr. Mayor, on the Finalization of Arguments. . . .
FASCHING Oh, excuse me, I skipped that. I see it.
46
,
4
MILLER All right, will you all be around the next couple of days so we can just
get it out to you and have you sign it?
MARGETT Sure. Or do you want us to drop in?
MILLER I'll figure it out tomorrow, whatever is easiest for you.
6. MATTERS FROM I have a couple of items that came up sort of at the last minute. One,
STAFF regarding the desire by the Personnel Board to tour the redevelopment
PERSONNEL BD. project area. They have no direct connection with this particular
(TOUR REDEV. function, but it's something we can do if the Council would like us to
PROJ. AREA) - undertake that activity.
WOOLARD
FASCHING I'd like to comment on that. They made this request a couple of times.
It's no big deal for us to do that, so I would recommend we just go ahead
and let staff handle that for them.
HARBICHT Why do they want to do this?
FASCHING I don't know, but it's been a controversy for a year, as you well know.
And if they want to drive around. . . .
MARGETT It's kind of an academic exercise, isn't it?
HARBICHT What does it have to do with their function as a personnel board? Nothing
whatsoever.
MARGETT Who's the liaison to Personnel?
LOJESKI Me.
MARGETT What did they say when they made the request?
LOJESKI I read it when it was given to us. They said nothing at their meeting.
Well, they periodically would go through and get a tour of the Police
Station, the Finance Department. They've done it in the City Clerk's
office at one time, the Fire Department.
HARBICHT I think those things are relevant because they're touring someone's
workplace and it may have some influence on some later decision they might
make. Touring the redevelopment area, I don't know how that's at all
relevant to the Personnel Board's responsibility.
FASCHING Well, let me ask Bill. How long would it take you to tour them, about 20
minutes? Ten?
WOOLARD Well, we'd recommend about an hour.
FASCHING Well, how could you take an hour to tour the redevelopment area?
HARBICHT Well, if they want to just look at it, they could get in their cars and
look at it.
KINNAHAN We'd stop, we'd talk, we'd go on. We'd stop, we'd talk, we'd go on.
There would be a little briefing before we left about the history of
redevelopment and. . . .
FASCHING Well, let me ask you this. If we had a group of citizens that came in and
wanted us to do this for them, what would you say?
MARGETT Fine. I would say, yeah, do it.
FASCHING Well, then, let's do it and get it over with and get it out of our hair.
It's been a bugaboo for a year.
HARBICHT Can't you get a Dial-a-Ride van and put some staff members in it and go
out with them?
48
f '9
-4
FASCHING One staff member,. Pete Kinnahan. That's all. It won't take long, and
they're satisfied, they're happy and they're concerned, and a little bit
more about redevelopment. I don't think it's relevant. But I think we
treat them like we treat any group that would come in and ask for a tour
of our redevelopment area. I don't think we'd turn them down. Next item.
WOOLARD We had a memo from Neal Johnson about the Boy Scout troop from Arcadia
(BOY SCOUT that's going to Indian National Jamboree and is requesting to use the City
NATIONAL seal over the entrance to their camp.
JAMBOREE -
CITY SEAL)
HARBICHT No problem at all with that.
CIRAULO Sounds good.
FASCHING So ordered.
LOJESKI Bill, do we have any extra City pins? We've given out in the past those
little pins.
HARBICHT If we don't have any around here, I've got some at home.
LOJESKI I mean, 20 scouts. . .I think this would be a real appropriate situation to
make sure each one has one.
WOOLARD If we do, we can always make them available to them.
HARBICHT Yeah, we ought to give them to them. I know that when we've had Sister
City trips that we've given them a whole bunch of pins and they'd pass
them out and everything. It's a great PR gimmick.
WOOLARD If we've got them, we'll include that. We would like to get your blue
binders back, those of you who haven't returned them for the budget, so
we can fill them up for next year. The easiest thing to do is to bring
it to the next Council meeting and we can get it at that time. Pete has
an item regarding the housing request from another city who is exploring
the idea of developing low, moderate. . . .
LOJESKI I'm absolutely against it.
CIRAULO I am, too.
LOJESKI I can't believe, Pete, that you're asking me to give money to El Segundo.
MARGETT Oh, no.
CIRAULO Forget it.
LOJESKI I don't even want to discuss it.
WOOLARD Legally, you can't do it right now, but that concept.
HARBICHT Pretty good idea. Hidden Hills will give them theirs.
FASCHING Any other matters from staff? Kinnahan.
KINNAHAN Just a real quickie, because it's late. One, I handed out tonight an item
NW COR. SITE - on the Northwest Corner site for a possible rail station. You may want
RAIL STATION to read the comments of the Corby Engineering staff guy on that. Lastly,
REDEVELOPMENT on redevelopment financing, Jim talked earlier about the impact on City
FINANCING - financing and the State crisis. The State has now come up with a coupled
(STATE CRISIS) new wrinkles. It appears one of the big ones may have gone away--that is
where the state would say to the school districts, "We're not going to
back you up for what goes to the Redevelopment Agency any more so you'll
be on your own." Which would mean that the School District would then
come to the Redevelopment Agency for its share of the tax increment. In
Arcadia it's about 25 percent of our T.I. That appears to be. . .it's not
on the current list, it's somehow gone away, which is good. They've added
49
to it, however, another one which is potentially unknown as far as its
impact. They just simply say that they might want to require that
agencies would receive in tax increment only what they've legally
contracted for. In our case, we have bonded indebtedness, that's $330,000
a year. Well, the rest of it is often pay as you go. We pay as we go.
They would sort of take that away. They would simply give us in tax
increment $330,000 because that's contractually established.
•
50
t.
LOJESKI I'm making a motion to appoint Peggy Leatherman for the Assistance League
slot. She's a great lady.
MARGETT Second the motion.
FASCHING So ordered. Any objections?
HARBICHT I had Miller written down here. I have to review. . .
MARGETT Owen Miller?
HARBICHT I guess. I just made notes on here of who. . . .
LOJESKI Did Lois Patnou want to be appointed to the Sister City Commission or was
it the Senior Citizen Commission? Or did it make a difference?
MARGETT I don't think it made any difference.
FASCHING It might to her. Oh, it didn't make any difference? O.K.
LOJESKI Well, what I'm suggesting is, if you had that desire, you could put Lois
on the Senior Citizen Commission and you could put Richard Cordano, since
there was a couple of us that liked Dick's abilities, on the Sister City
Commission.
FASCHING O.K. , want to switch it?
CIRAULO He's put in an application for all the commissions, so it doesn't make any
difference to him apparently.
FASCHING Cordano?
CIRAULO Yeah.
FASCHING You don't want to put him on Senior Citizens?
LOJESKI No, I was just looking at his experience with the band. He has been so
instrumental and he knows so many of those people with the band coming
back this winter.
FASCHING All right. Make a motion, then, to remove Lois Patnou from the Sister
City Commission, put Dick Cordano on that commission, and to appoint Lois
Patnou to the Senior Citizens Commission.
HARBICHT How about Louise Gelber? We can't overlook her.
FASCHING She's running for office.
(Laughter)
CIRAULO We've got one more for Senior Citizens.
FASCHING No, we already put Lois Patnou on there.
MARGETT Patnou and Leatherman.
CIRAULO On Senior Citizens? Yeah Leatherman and Patnou, . O.K.
FASCHING And we put Dick Cordano and Beth Wells on Sister City. Do you have a
motion on that? O.K. , it was so moved.
5. MEASURE A
ARGUMENT -
CITY CHARTER
AMD. (9-15-92
SPEC. ELEC. ) -
HARBICHT Mr. Mayor, on the Finalization of Arguments. . . .
FASCHING Oh, excuse me, I skipped that. I see it.
46
t.
LOJESKI I'm making a motion to appoint Peggy Leatherman for the Assistance League
slot. She's a great lady.
MARGETT Second the motion.
FASCHING So ordered. Any objections?
HARBICHT I had Miller written down here. I have to review. . .
MARGETT Owen Miller?
HARBICHT I guess. I just made notes on here of who. . . .
LOJESKI Did Lois Patnou want to be appointed to the Sister City Commission or was
it the Senior Citizen Commission? Or did it make a difference?
MARGETT I don't think it made any difference.
FASCHING It might to her. Oh, it didn't make any difference? O.K.
LOJESKI Well, what I'm suggesting is, if you had that desire, you could put Lois
on the Senior Citizen Commission and you could put Richard Cordano, since
there was a couple of us that liked Dick's abilities, on the Sister City
Commission.
FASCHING O.K. , want to switch it?
CIRAULO He's put in an application for all the commissions, so it doesn't make any
difference to him apparently.
FASCHING Cordano?
CIRAULO Yeah.
FASCHING You don't want to put him on Senior Citizens?
LOJESKI No, I was just looking at his experience with the band. He has been so
instrumental and he knows so many of those people with the band coming
back this winter.
FASCHING All right. Make a motion, then, to remove Lois Patnou from the Sister
City Commission, put Dick Cordano on that commission, and to appoint Lois
Patnou to the Senior Citizens Commission.
HARBICHT How about Louise Gelber? We can't overlook her.
FASCHING She's running for office.
(Laughter)
CIRAULO We've got one more for Senior Citizens.
FASCHING No, we already put Lois Patnou on there.
MARGETT Patnou and Leatherman.
CIRAULO On Senior Citizens? Yeah Leatherman and Patnou, . O.K.
FASCHING And we put Dick Cordano and Beth Wells on Sister City. Do you have a
motion on that? O.K. , it was so moved.
5. MEASURE A
ARGUMENT -
CITY CHARTER
AMD. (9-15-92
SPEC. ELEC. ) -
HARBICHT Mr. Mayor, on the Finalization of Arguments. . . .
FASCHING Oh, excuse me, I skipped that. I see it.
46
HARBICHT . . .I've given my suggestions, which is basically taking out about 20
percent of the words and moving a couple of sentences. Other than that,
I mean, the sense of the thing to me is the same.
FASCHING Has everybody seen that?
MILLER Bob just handed this to me a little while ago. I reviewed it. It doesn't
change the substance, but frankly it makes it read better and easier, his
version. Mine was a draft. I'm taking advantage of your being here
tonight to get it finalized, because it has to be turned in to the City
Clerk on the 29th.
HARGETT Where's a copy of it?
HARBICHT I just marked it up.
MILLER Here's a copy that went out a few days ago. It doesn't have Bob's changes
on it.
HARGETT Oh, I saw this, but what about Bob's changes?
MILLER Here's a copy with the changes on it'.
HARBICHT As a matter of fact, everybody look at your copy and I'll tell you what
I changed. Mostly, I'm just taking out words I consider superfluous. I
took out the word "current." So it says, "The Arcadia City Charter was
enacted in 1968. It's an excellent charter." And then I moved the line
that says, "As the underlying constitution of the City, it is important
to keep the Charter current," up there after the second sentence. And
then I say, "In the 24 years that have elapsed since its enactment, it has
been periodically reviewed by City staff and the City Council." I took
out that first phrase that says, "Several noncontroversial provisions have
been determined to be outdated or inconsistent with current law and
practice." Took out the words "in order," so it says, "To provide a more
workable updated City Charter, the proposed revisions are brought before
the voters to implement this important housekeeping function to amend the
City Charter." I took out "that as required by law, the changes. . . . ,"
it's just, again, superfluous. The rest of that, "This assures that the
City Council has authority," I took out the word "ample." I wanted to
make this thing as innocuous as possible. Down in the next one, I say
"Eight revisions are recommended for adoption," period. The rest of it's
in there. And then I took that second sentence and moved it to the end
of that paragraph, which is kind of a summing up. Basically, say,
"Sections that have become illegal or unconstitutional by changing law are
no longer enforceable and should be taken out of the Charter." I took out
the words, "will be deleted, these are no longer," just made it all one
sentence. And on the next page it says, "Review of the proposed changes
set forth in the Voters Pamphlet will demonstrate the cleanup nature of
the revisions. They will result in a better City Charter."
HARGETT That's fine with me.
HARBICHT I think the sense of what Mike had in there is that we're just doing some
housekeeping stuff and bringing everything up to date.
FASCHING Could I have a motion to approve the finalization of argument in favor of
Measure A, City Charter revision, September 15th election, with revision
as per Councilman Harbicht.
HARGETT So moved.
HARBICHT Second.
FASCHING All right, so ordered.
MILLER Let me ask the City Clerk a question. June, I believe we need their
signatures on. . . .
ALFORD Well, they had agreed that all five would sign it, so we do. When you
file it, everyone. . . .
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4
MILLER All right, will you all be around the next couple of days so we can just
get it out to you and have you sign it?
MARGETT Sure. Or do you want us to drop in?
MILLER I'll figure it out tomorrow, whatever is easiest for you.
6. MATTERS FROM I have a couple of items that came up sort of at the last minute. One,
STAFF regarding the desire by the Personnel Board to tour the redevelopment
PERSONNEL BD. project area. They have no direct connection with this particular
(TOUR REDEV. function, but it's something we can do if the Council would like us to
PROJ. AREA) - undertake that activity.
WOOLARD
FASCHING I'd like to comment on that. They made this request a couple of times.
It's no big deal for us to do that, so I would recommend we just go ahead
and let staff handle that for them.
HARBICHT Why do they want to do this?
FASCHING I don't know, but it's been a controversy for a year, as you well know.
And if they want to drive around. . . .
MARGETT It's kind of an academic exercise, isn't it?
HARBICHT What does it have to do with their function as a personnel board? Nothing
whatsoever.
MARGETT Who's the liaison to Personnel?
LOJESKI Me.
MARGETT What did they say when they made the request?
LOJESKI I read it when it was given to us. They said nothing at their meeting.
Well, they periodically would go through and get a tour of the Police
Station, the Finance Department. They've done it in the City Clerk's
office at one time, the Fire Department.
HARBICHT I think those things are relevant because they're touring someone's
workplace and it may have some influence on some later decision they might
make. Touring the redevelopment area, I don't know how that's at all
relevant to the Personnel Board's responsibility.
FASCHING Well, let me ask Bill. How long would it take you to tour them, about 20
minutes? Ten?
WOOLARD Well, we'd recommend about an hour.
FASCHING Well, how could you take an hour to tour the redevelopment area?
HARBICHT Well, if they want to just look at it, they could get in their cars and
look at it.
KINNAHAN We'd stop, we'd talk, we'd go on. We'd stop, we'd talk, we'd go on.
There would be a little briefing before we left about the history of
redevelopment and. . . .
FASCHING Well, let me ask you this. If we had a group of citizens that came in and
wanted us to do this for them, what would you say?
MARGETT Fine. I would say, yeah, do it.
FASCHING Well, then, let's do it and get it over with and get it out of our hair.
It's been a bugaboo for a year.
HARBICHT Can't you get a Dial-a-Ride van and put some staff members in it and go
out with them?
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